253 replies to this topic

[IronHorse]

Just out of curiousity and to clarify to all who are interested to know.

What defines a "barbie" collie from other BCs?

The term is used with frequency on these boards and I am not sure that all who view the various threads have a clear understanding of what is meant by the use of the term "barbie" in reference to Border Collies.

[Lunar]

"Barbie" collies are those bred for looks instead of working ability. Obviously you can still get "pretty" dogs out of working lines, and pups without much herding ability.... those wouldn't be considered barbie collies, though.... it's the lines bred for the purpose of showing/looks.

[IronHorse]

But isn't it possible to obtain a good working dog out of a "barbie" line?

[Kat's Dogs]

I think that all Border Collies that are not breed from working stock could be counted at Barbies. Even with just one breeding of two dogs that don't work, you start to lose that amazing instinct.

But a dog that does work plus a dog that doesn't, I think it is still counted as a real Border Collie. But of course, that is just IMO.

[Miztiki]

I also think of a Barbie Collie as a conformation dog, and they all pretty much look the same; classic BC color and markings, rough coat, tipped ears, etc.

Real working BC's I think of as real BC's. The rest are just your average Border Collie to me.

Oh, and then there are the mutts!

[Kat's Dogs]

That is part of why they are called Barbie Collies.

Barbies are all made the same, so are show Border Collies.

[Howdyjabo]

Barbie Collies(TM C.C.) are any dog not bred specifically for superior livestock working ability.

The conformation dogs are the original Barbie-- one made for looks with no other qualities expressed.
All the others are the "new" Barbies- dressed up like Nurses ,Drs and Lawyers to come off as more "socially correct" .

[Miztiki]

I hadn't even thought of those Karen. Yeah, the ones bred for agility or whatever are not in my average BC category. Those are Brawny Collies!

[IronHorse]

So lets say someone is interested in a Border Collie as a pet/companion dog,,perhaps looking for a dog to play frisbie,fetch or whatever,would you say that they would be more satisfied with a "barbie"?

[Miztiki]

I would say that reponsible breeders of working BC's inevitably produce pups that just don't cut it as a good working dog. I hope to get myself one of those someday in the distant future.

I'd say that there are thousands of purebred BC's in shelters and rescues, and others whose owners want to get rid of them.

There are a ton of mixes too.

Would they be more satisfied with a Barbie? I suppose it depends on what they are looking for in a BC. If they think the ideal BC looks a certain way then yeah, probably. But BC's bred for anything other than herding ability tend to lose all of the traits that endear us to them so much.

If that same person had a well bred BC then I think they would be more satisfied and upset that they had been missing out for so long.

Just about any old dog can do what you described, not just a BC.

[Tammy525]

Amen Miztiki, what is the point of breeding for play/companionship only. Bad for all dogs in general to breed for looks only.

[IronHorse]

Ok then Let me ask this question?
How many of you with purebred BCs are actually working them on stock?

The issue of my intial question was not to debate the question of to breed or not to breed.
It was asked to try to clarify the definition of the term "barbie" with regards to the Border Collie.

seems to me that the breeding is going to happen for basically 4 different reasons regardless,
1; responsibly for good working dogs
2; For show/conformation
3; for profit
4; accidently

[Marty&Abigail]

This is new to me! Barbie Collie.. I sould tell this tomorrow to some of my friends at the international Show in Milan! They will be there with theirs working Border Collie.. to get a good scor in morphology.

What some of my friend are trying to do here in Italy, is to get "Brain's Beauty" BC, not just brain before beauty. I think is not so bad. They want working dogs but also good looking. We don't have so many shepherds that want a border collie to work.. so we have to find a compromise sometimes.

But I like this name for just show border collie.. so perfect, so untrue.. ahahahaha

[Miztiki]

Originally posted by Marty&Abigail:
They want working dogs but also good looking.

I don't really understand this. What is considered "good looking"? Or do you mean conformation dogs who can work?

I ask because people here post lots of pictures (but not enough) of their dogs actually working, and they all look different, and they all are gorgeous. Different colors, coats, ear sets, sizes, shapes...

[Dixie_Girl]

The first time I heard the term Barbie Collie was on the ABCA site. It was made because of the fight to keep BCs out of AKC. Why? When is the last time some saw a duck hunter with a poodle in tow? But that is what they were bred for. The dogs that are inbroiled in AKC have lost ALL of their original instincts. Where does a coon hunter get their coon dogs? From other coon hunters. Where does duck hunters get their retrievers? From other hunters. The point is, each breed was created for a specific reason. Some for work, some to just sit there and look cute! The BC has remained "pure" simply because the only people who really knew about them were the ones working them. It was when the BCs were found to be sooo good at the agility games that the general public became aware of these awsome dogs. And everyone wanted one. Yet they did not understand the complexity of the dogs until the dogs were older and then they started getting dumped. I waited 2yrs. to get my BC. I read every thing I could on the breed before I commited myself to him. Yes he will be working sheep, if he can. If not I will try agility. But one thing for sure, he will always feel he has a job to do, because he doesn't understand anything else. And I understand that. A barbie collie is a BC on the outside and just another dog on the inside. But it is what is on the inside that counts. Yes, we are all drawn to the really nice looking BCs,,,,,,,,,but watching an "ugly" BC working sheep in perfect form is nothing but poetry in motion.

[Lunar]

I don't think all dogs should be bred for some ulterior purpose. Many breeds that exist, exist only for a desire for a different kind of companion dog (ie, the lap dog varieties). Due to the huge overpopulation problem in north america I do not support any kind of breeding, personally. But were that not a problem... I think it's unfair to state that NO dogs should be bred for play/companionship. That's what most dogs are. (Excepting border collies, who still play a very functional role.) But of course, that is just my opinion.

IronHorse: I'd say number 1 are border collies, 2 is the definition of barbie collie, 3 is most likely barbie collie (because to get the most money they want "purebred, pretty" dogs), and 4 are generally mutts!

Would someone who wanted a companion dog most likely be more satisified with a barbie? Probably. But then the question is - why would they want a border collie if it's not a border collie? There are many other breeds and mutts that fulfil the companion dog requirements. I love border collies. I think they're an amazing breed. But when it was time to get a dog, did I get one? No. I know my lifestyle is not appropriate for a dog like that. I got a pound mutt.

[kajarrel]

So lets say someone is interested in a Border Collie as a pet/companion dog,,perhaps looking for a dog to play frisbie,fetch or whatever,would you say that they would be more satisfied with a "barbie"?

Why? Working bred border collies do all these things - well. Barbies are not border collies. If you want something that isn't a border collie, why not get another type of dog (mixed or purebred) that meets your needs?

Sorry, this question just seems bizarre to me. It seems based on flawed assumptions and a little leading. . .

Kim

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Barbie Collies(TM C.C.)

Iron Horse, "working bred" Border collies are not just bred to be working machines. What makes them superior partners for the livestock handler also makes them great at lots of other stuff. Border collies are a fragile balance of reactiveness and impulse control, drive and biddability, work ethic and loyalty, intensity and patience, athletic prowess and structural balance. Successful representatives of this ideal are nice to live with (assuming you are ready to meet their need for exercise and mental stimulation) and are capable of just about anything.

The only way to maintain that balance from generation to generation is to work your breeding stock HARD, on stock. I'm really convinced that ANYONE who is monkeying around with that mix and focusing on non-workers in their breeding programs, are playing with fire.

The problem comes when there's no line between true working breeders, hobby trial/farm breeders, Sport Collie breeders, BYBs, and Barbies. It IS a problem that there's no real place you can say, breeders who do XYZ are TRULY committed to the working heritage of the breed and all the others aren't. The issue of dual registration is probably a good place to start, but I bet we can think of other characteristics that would screen out all but the breeders that, say, share the objectives of the US Border Collie Club (which maintains this forum) http://www.bordercol...g/objectiv.html

Speaking of which, if you are interested in actively supporting the working Border collie (and supporting this forum by the way!), consider membership in the US Border Collie Club http://www.bordercollie.org/usapp.html

[Maralynn]

Border collies are defined by the work they do - not just looks. The quality I admire is the work ethic. The "barbie collie" group does not appreciate the work ethic. They place the highest value on looks, and the dog loses the ability to function like a border collie. It loses the spark that makes it a Border Collie.

If someone wants to have black and white show dogs, that's fine with me, but don't try to to say its a Border Collie.

[IronHorse]

Barbies are not border collies. If you want something that isn't a border collie, why not get another type of dog (mixed or purebred) that meets your needs?
Kim [/QB]

I don't see how you can make this statement.
If the dog is registered properly then it is in fact a Border Collie even though it might be concidered a "barbie" by some.

I personally would define a "barbie" Border Collie as those that are breed specifically for show/conformation and alot that are breed for profit.
But from responses appearing on this thread the "barbie" concept is abit muddled from individual to individual.