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How to Prove Show Dogs Still Have Working Ability


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I came across this on the website of the Border Collie Club of Great Britain. There is much I could say, but I will post it without comment.

 

Oh, well, okay -- one comment. If you want to derive a drop of humor out of what is otherwise a very sad situation, take a look at Objection #3. Personally, I think the ISDS should go easy on them and have them work only one sheep. :rolleyes:

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In a wide open field is what got me. Isn't that the essence of "sheep herding" as it began so long ago- on the moors of the border counties between england and scotland?

Julie

 

I came across this on the website of the Border Collie Club of Great Britain. There is much I could say, but I will post it without comment.

 

Oh, well, okay -- one comment. If you want to derive a drop of humor out of what is otherwise a very sad situation, take a look at Objection #3. Personally, I think the ISDS should go easy on them and have them work only one sheep. :rolleyes:

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I personally like the complaint that penning ten sheep never occurs in ISDS trials and so shouldn't be expected of show border collies (um, they did make the pen larger to accommodate more sheep, and in a practical test as called for it would seem that many more sheep than 10 might need to be penned, since most shepherds do keep more than 10 sheep). The whole part about penning in an open field is just beyond me. Well, and the fact that ISDS judges aren't sympathetic to show border collies and their owners. Whats THAT supposed to mean? That they won't make allowances for inferior work and therefore should be gotten rid of? Too funny (well, if it weren't so darned sad anyway).

 

J.

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Any dog who is incapable of managing either test described in that letter would not be able to place in the average novice trial.

 

Maybe they'd be willing to strike a deal. Like, ugly working dogs would get special consideration in the show ring. Do you think they'd go for that?

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I guess this is just proof again that the conformation ring is more concerned with "titles" than the actual quality of the dogs. The way I see it- this proposition is no surprise...only damning proof of the vanity and shallowness of the show ring.

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damning proof of the vanity and shallowness of the show ring.

 

I agree. But, I submit that the whole thing is sort of irrelevant other than as a proof of how little these people know about what makes these dogs the "world's premier herding dog" (bleurgh, I hate that phrase, sounds like an ad for expensive chocolate). Their dogs aren't failing at the test because it's too hard, even when it was made even easier - they were failing because the people who bred them are too ignorant about stock and what makes an exceptional working dog, to know that the test WAS made easier for them.

 

I mean, raise your hand if you'd rather pen ten sheep than five, in a pen twice the size of usual? Good grief, even my pups can do that, asuming the sheep are reasonably used to going in a pen.

 

When the breeders of Border Collies don't know livestock, there's going to be a falling away of ability even among those who attempt to train their KC dogs to work. The problem is they don't understand this. They trust in "innate abilities" which are mysteriously "passed down" from working ancestors.

 

I find it interesting to hear the cry for "tests more like practical work" from across the water too. You hear that here, too, among the title-seeking crowd.

 

Tests like the ISDS style trial course aren't designed to imitate work, they are designed to challenge the limits of natural ability and training. If you make your standard taking sheep out of pens, walking them in small paddocks along fencelines, and penning them in barnyard-type gates, you'll get dogs that at their best are only capable of this.

 

But a dog that can pen three flighty sheep in a free-standing pen, with little help from the handler, can easily help when things get messy at a normal gate - lambs seperated from moms, rams unwilling to leave the ewes, sheep wanting to stay in the feeding lot.

 

A dog that can take four sheep up the field in a straight line for 200 yards with little direction from the handler, can easily guide a flock to a graze along an unfenced path, or road, or through woods or brush without losing any.

 

A dog that can find a small group of sheep 800 yards away with no commands, will find clearing a hillside of widely-scattered sheep, child's play.

 

The key however is that the dogs that are bred must be the ones that can perform tasks like these as naturally as possible. And that's what the conformation people miss. Ya got to see it to know it's there. But I'm preaching to the choir here, of course.

 

Jaime, I nominate you for the Board's coolest sig line. :rolleyes:

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Did you see what was proposed? Oy 215.gif

 

sheep.png

 

 

I propose that a new test be devised. This will be judged as an assessment of the dog's ability to control and move sheep whilst obeying commands from the handler and that no marks awarded, but a pass or fail given by a panel of judges.

 

The course would be set up in a paddock rather than a large open field. Ten sheep would be presented as usual off the fence at the top of the paddock.

 

The dog would be sent on a right or left fetch and the handler be permitted to leave the post and walk a central line down the paddock towards the sheep to assist the dog if necessary. The handler would not be permitted to touch the dog but will be allowed to re command the dog as required.

 

The dog must then drive the sheep towards the handler whilst negotiating the weave through cones or posts. The handler is permitted to walk backwards in front of the sheep but the dog must be seen to be obeying the handler's command to move the sheep from side to side whilst negotiating the posts.

 

On reaching the start post, the dog must then drive the sheep towards and through a gateway, the handler will be permitted to walk alongside the dog if desired, but the dog must be driving the sheep as commanded by the handler.

 

The maximum time for achieving this test would be 10 minutes. The dog can be allowed two attempts on one day. There will be no limit to the number of times a dog can take the test. Distances and measurements can be agreed after discussion.

 

When I saw the diagram I thought, "That fetch could be a challenge..."

 

Until I read the part about the paddock and the part about the handler leaving the post and walking in front of the sheep.

 

People, I know pugs and ridgebacks and pitbulls that could pass this test.

 

Dachshund:

Daschund32.jpg

 

Great Dane:

herdinggreatdane.jpg

 

 

And sweet pit bull Hagrid the Herder :

Hagrid2.jpg

 

 

************

"For it is not in Englande, as it is in Fraunce, as it is in Flaunders, as it is in Syria, as it in Tartaria, where the sheepe follow the shepherd, for heere in our country the sheepherd followeth the sheepe." [Johannes Caius, Of English Dogs, 1576.]

The last wolves were hunted to extinction in Great Britain some 600 years before Caius wrote his treatise on English dogs. What the wolf's extinction meant in shepherding terms was that from the year 960 or so onward, flocks of sheep were able to lamb, graze and roam at will over great expanses of land with little risk of being killed by natural predators. For the past thousand years, the only wild animals in Great Britain capable of threatening a lamb or a sick ewe have been the fox, the Scottish wildcat, the eagle and the raven.

These conditions shaped the border collie. For over a thousand years, sheepdogs in Great Britain have been required to cover enormous distances in their work; to gather flocks miles from the shepherd; to drive and to hold sheep in open, unfenced areas, while preventing any from escaping; to single one sheep out of a group, and hold it for the shepherd; and to accomplish all these tasks in unfenced, rugged, often dangerous terrain with sheep sometimes as wild as deer. No other shepherding breed of dog in history, anywhere in the world, has been developed and defined by such challenges -- and the authentic border collie's work on the Hill (and around the world) today is largely unchanged.

 

Way to be "guardians of the breed," silly BCC of Great Britian 215.gif

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I think that the 'weaving fetch' could really catch on. I mean, no dog can weave like a border collie!

 

Seriously, I wonder why the conformation folks care about being a full champion? None of them exists, so it's not a 'keeping up with the Jones' exercise. It would be like one of you mean old working guys challenging the penalizing of cow hocks in the show ring.

 

Following correspondence by the Club to the Kennel Club regarding the Working Test, A representive from the Club has been invited to the Kennel Club on 17 April 2007 to discuss whether the working test should be amended. Also attending will be representives of the ISDS, Kennel Club Working Trials, Obedience and Agility Sub Committee and repesentive from the Breed Council.

 

Wouldn't you pay money to be a fly on the wall for THAT meeting? I wonder what the input from the Agility Sub-Committee rep would be? More weaving? Put the sheep over an a-frame?

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Okay. You guys know I'm no shepherd. But I am astonished that the person who wrote that article can have done so with no evident sense of irony. It's like saying "You know, I think high school graduation requirements are too difficult for cheerleaders. [Apologies to all cheerleaders, I'm just picking a subset that exists in HS. Insert your own at will. Girls who end up going to vet school and moving to AK. :rolleyes: Whatever you like.] We shouldn't expect cheerleaders to pass these difficult tests. Let's make the test for literacy that they know how to hold the book right side up, can identify at least half the letters of the alphabet, and can read their own name out loud. A teacher is allowed to tell them the book is upside down, though they cannot touch the book or student to correct it. If the student cannot remember the name of the letters, a teacher may show them a picture whose subject begins with that letter. If they cannot read their name, a teacher may help them sound it out. No teacher who has an unnecessarily high standard for literacy - such as an English teacher, or someone who is themselves literate - should be allowed to grade this test. If possible, the test should be graded by people who are barely literate or completely illiterate themselves. Also, even amongst people who would find this test challenging themselves, only those who are sympathetic to cheerleaders - such as cheerleading coaches, the parents or best friends/SO's of the students being tested, or those being paid to pass the students regardless of test results - should be allowed to grade the test."

 

The bottom line is: either you're literate or you're not. There is a minimum standard for that, no matter who you are. Being pretty does not exempt you from that standard. Being the best cheerleader in the state does not. Being a good person, a good friend, a joy to all around you does not. Growing up to be a great philanthropist does not. You're either literate... or you're not. Making a dumbed-down test does not change that. It might change whether you're given credit for literacy undeservedly, but it doen't make you literate. I can't see how it is possible that someone can actually write an article such as this and honestly truly not see the irony. ... or follow the logical thread contained therein: "The last dog capable of passing this test died a few years ago. We no longer have anything capable of passing this test. Could it be that our dogs are NOT up to scratch on stock...? If not, then is the solution to change our breeding practices RIGHT NOW lest we lose all that makes a BC a BC, or to ignore that threat and instead fake the ability to do The Work by making a kindergarten-level test for our dogs, and then certifying them via a hand-picked and sympathetic panel of judges?"

 

Aaack. Maybe it's just me. :D

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This reminds me of some non-usbcha herding trials I have seen. The dog works the sheep, all the while you are with the sheep. Basically, you need a dog who is obedient enough to stay behind (and not head) the sheep, and voila, you have a course sewed up!

Oh, and Becca, I agree about the 10 vs less sheep to pen- sure would be nice eh?

 

Such a clear lack of understanding it is unbelievable.

 

Julie

 

 

Did you see what was proposed? Oy 215.gif

 

sheep.png

 

 

When I saw the diagram I thought, "That fetch could be a challenge..."

 

Until I read the part about the paddock and the part about the handler leaving the post and walking in front of the sheep.

 

People, I know pugs and ridgebacks and pitbulls that could pass this test.

 

Dachshund:

Daschund32.jpg

 

Great Dane:

herdinggreatdane.jpg

And sweet pit bull Hagrid the Herder :

Hagrid2.jpg

************

"For it is not in Englande, as it is in Fraunce, as it is in Flaunders, as it is in Syria, as it in Tartaria, where the sheepe follow the shepherd, for heere in our country the sheepherd followeth the sheepe." [Johannes Caius, Of English Dogs, 1576.]

The last wolves were hunted to extinction in Great Britain some 600 years before Caius wrote his treatise on English dogs. What the wolf's extinction meant in shepherding terms was that from the year 960 or so onward, flocks of sheep were able to lamb, graze and roam at will over great expanses of land with little risk of being killed by natural predators. For the past thousand years, the only wild animals in Great Britain capable of threatening a lamb or a sick ewe have been the fox, the Scottish wildcat, the eagle and the raven.

These conditions shaped the border collie. For over a thousand years, sheepdogs in Great Britain have been required to cover enormous distances in their work; to gather flocks miles from the shepherd; to drive and to hold sheep in open, unfenced areas, while preventing any from escaping; to single one sheep out of a group, and hold it for the shepherd; and to accomplish all these tasks in unfenced, rugged, often dangerous terrain with sheep sometimes as wild as deer. No other shepherding breed of dog in history, anywhere in the world, has been developed and defined by such challenges -- and the authentic border collie's work on the Hill (and around the world) today is largely unchanged.

 

Way to be "guardians of the breed," silly BCC of Great Britian 215.gif

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What I read is:

 

We like to prove that our show dogs can control sheep. But asking them to prove they can control sheep is unfair.

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Okay, I'm absolutely no shepherd so I can't really comment too much on the 'test' requirement. However, I can comment on the mentality of "It's too hard, so let's make is so everyone can pass"

:rolleyes:

This mentality is not limited to sheepherding, dog trials, you name it. We have been raising a generation or two that believes 'everyone must be a winner', there can be no losers because it's hard on self esteem, and doesn't allow everyone to be treated fairly.

GOOD GRIEF....guess what, life's not fair!! If you try that attitude in a workplace...guess where you wind up! In the world of life...there ARE WINNERS and yep, there are losers too. That's just the way it is!! So that means if your dog can't take the test as is...TOO BAD! It's not good enough, and that's that!!

[Okay......getting off my soapbox now] :D

And I agree, it sure would be funny, if it wasn't so sad :D

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Many show exhibitors, owners and breeders would, I feel, Like to show that their dogs can still control sheep but the present test is both impractical and unfair.

 

Because real work is "impractical and unfair". It isn't moving dog-broke sheep around a paddock. It might be moving some incredibly pissed-off or frightened sheep in a wide-open field and having to make decisions when the handler isn't right there to guide them along, every step of the way. The point of real work is to get the job done, not to make the dog look good. The conformation people can't get past that. The few that decide to work their dogs do so only to "prove" that their dogs have working ability, maybe make them a bit more in-demand as a stud dog, or earn a few more titles to flash at the end of their name.

 

It is judged by ISDS nominated judges who have no sympathy whatever with show dogs or their handlers.

 

Why do they need sympathy if they can work just as well as those ugly ISDS mongrels? :rolleyes:

 

This entire thing is so sad it's almost laughable, but it doesn't surprise me. :-/

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oh boy, I posted this to a british BC forum, many of the folks are KC folks and guess what? they all AGREED with the points the guy made! good grief, I dropped Happy on sheep for the first time at the age of 5, there were 10 sheep in a large paddock, Happy with no training, and the age of 5 years had NO trouble whatsoever handling this, if I dropped Happy on their propsed test tomorow she would pass with flying colours. "you may walk in front of the sheep" uuuuhhhhh sheep have a tendincy to follow last I checked, walk in front of sheep while keep dog behind..no I dont know much about working but it seems to be all the dog would have to do is walk behind the sheep and pretend they are actually doing something.....

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Sure wish I lived over there. I'd be half tempted to register my dogs with the KC just to take their current test and prove it can be done with a correctly bred and built ISDS type (REAL) Border Collie.

 

Fixing events for dogs to win just lowers the already low standard of breeding the KC holds its breeders to. Who in the World wants to buy a dog from a KC that lowers the standard for its breeders, just to get more titles? Those damn "easy buttons" are getting nice!

 

This is sad and I think the lowest "below the belt" hit the breed has taken scene it was allowed to be judge and Championed based on looks alone.

 

Katelynn

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