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IronHorse

Barbie dog definition

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In aperfect world i would totaly agree only proven working Bcs should be breed and only sold to those that will work stock. but this will not happen Just check out the web so many dual regestered dogs are up for sale Every day more and more bcs are going to Sport homes .
So we should just give up and forget about trying to make sure only the most competant working dogs are bred? Darn, now I REALLY wish I'd kept Jen intact. Her pups would be MUCH more marketable to those sport homes:

 

JenStand0805.jpg

 

Hips excellent, eyes CERF at six weeks and 2005, thyroid perfect - darn, darn, darn, what a missed opportunity!!!

 

She even climbs trees -

 

JenTreeSpray.jpg

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An important point that gets missed is that people, who, although they don't have much if any experience working dogs on stock, are sure their sport collies will be good "herders" if only they had time to train them, or if they do "herd" with them some, are certain they'll know enough to evaluate them properly. So they breed them and sell the puppies to people who would have bought real working bred pups otherwise. So less working breeders breed as the market for their pups is sucked away by sport breeders.

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>

 

I asked the question because I wanted to know the answer. Whether someone like Rosanne would want to continue with dual registration into the next generation (and if so, why), or wouldn't see any point in doing so.

 

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And you're saying those are the only two options? You must not be reading elsewhere on these Boards about all the pet (nonsporting) border collies and the people who are happy with them.

 

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We try, but some people refuse to be educated.

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Eileen, Denise and many many others -

Please do not despair. Some people WON'T refuse to be educated. When I first came on the boards, I had some general idea that if Finn proved out on stock (and passed his physical certifications, hips and eyes), I might one day breed him (although I thought that might take the form of collecting semen and storing it for a decade or so, til I figured out what I was doing; I wasn't sure how I was going to decide what was a suitable bitch for him, and I thought that might take time - kind of a LOT of time, actually.)

 

After having been here for a while, it was a LOT easier for me to decide to neuter, because it became much clearer to me how careful you have to be in choosing your breeding stock in order to maintain all those lovely traits for which I so adore Finn (and Pepper, and all the other BCs with whom I've had the good fortune to interact.) Finn does have some ability - but he doesn't have enough to justify breeding him (let alone the expense of storing semen until such time as I might have enough judgement to choose an appropriate breeding.)

 

As a BTW, it also became clear, after only a few herding lessons, how very much I had to learn about THAT before I could make any sound judgements about the whole breeding fitness thing - fitness being determined by both physical soundness and ability on stock. This is not something that you can go out and learn in a weekend. I'm not stupid (or if I am, that whole doctorate in veterinary medicine thing was a dreadful administrative error), but there is NO WAY that a person can go out and hobby herd a little and be able to judge what is a good breedable stock dog and what is not, LET ALONE make the appropriate choices about which two dogs would be best bred together. IMHO.

 

I think in a competent handler's hands, Finn might be a useful stock dog, but not a top one (Pepper, probably a VERY useful stock dog, and maybe a top one.) However, I do not have sheep and my coach has moved out of state, so I'll probably never know. But even if God Himself (Herself?) came down from the heavens and said, "Thy dogge Finn is a just and worthye beast and will be an average stock dog if you get your behind out there and work him, wench, and this I guarantee ye and all the Canine-ites in thy province" (or words to that effect), the thing I learned from the Boards is this: an average stock dog is not going to improve the breed. At the unlikely best he will help it break even, and at the more-likely worst he will undermine the quality of his breed. What a disservice to do to the breed which brought him to me in the first place.

 

So please, be of good cheer (hmm, I seem to have veered off into some sort of Biblical Language warp).... your efforts DO make a difference. Not only did you save me the cost of collecting and storing semen :rolleyes: (for which I thank you), you spared the breed we love at least THAT set of pups, and all of THEIR potential pups. Maybe as important, you helped me get a clear enough understanding of the issues so that I can educate my clients. At least two (that I know of) have chosen not to breed as a result of my input. There may be more. Three isn't very many, but I'm not done talking to clients. Trust me on this. I can hardly keep my big yap shut on the subject.

 

So I'll add my thanks to those of others on the boards here, and point out that your efforts DO make a difference.

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Every day I run into the misconception in the general public (which the AKC promotes) that herding instinct (any working instinct for that matter) is all or nothing; the dog either has it or it doesn't. In the past I have used the analogy of musical talent.

 

Many people have some musical talent (they can carry a tune); some people have more (they learn to play an instrument and read music); some even are talented enough to be really good amateur musicians; but few have enough talent to be professional musicians/writers/composers. Herding instinct is like that, a continuum not all or nothing. To become a useful at stock work takes enough instinct and training; without the training one would never know just how much talent (how much instinct) the dog really has.

 

Mark

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I'm sorry, but did you actually READ my post? I mentioned that I thought herding 'tests' were very silly.

If my dogs don't turn out to be good on stock, YES I will neuter/spay. I know there are lots of good working breeders around. I will go there. I would love to be able to prove my dogs. You guys are the ones who are touting how herding breeders don't need to see Open winners, and a good working farm dog can produce as well as the USBCHA Open Finals winner. Where did this attitude go when I suggested that my dog might be as good as yours if you had it? All my dogs are from working lines, maybe not Open winning lines, but working none-the less. One of my dogs is a half-brother to one of Laurie Anderson's dogs, whose father was 2001 NEBCA Pro-Novice champion. Not the best in the country, but yes he definitely worked. When/if I breed it will be to a working stud in the case of my bitch, and with my male I'll just wait and see what comes up. No, I honestly won't get to the Open level in herding, but at least I won't use AKC herding titles to try to prove their ability.

 

I didn't mean that I wanted to go to ACK agility classes. I meant that if I ever have access to a facility that I can TEACH some of those AKC people. And yes, I really AM in that small zillionth of a percent of agility competitors who could make the FCI World Team. Please don't assume that I am not as good as I think I am. I probably won't make it this year as my dog is only 3, I am really shooting for next year. I often beat former World Team dogs locally (did just last weekend).

My dogs are not Barbie Collies, and I refused to show in AKC aglity for many years because I don't like them. I still don't approve of their rules and practices, but the competing international agility organization is not up to the task yet, and if I want to compete in the most competitive international environment, then I need to make it to the FCI.

 

No, I am not going to quit agility and take up herding. I have neither the time nor money nor acreage to do this. Does this mean I should never breed my dogs?? That's sort of ridiculous. Think about that. There are NONE of you that have bred a dog who didn't excel in Open? I see lots of top handlers running dogs from unknown parents in herding (and agility), which implies that talent can be told from good training and limited showing. I would love to start competing in USBCHA, but I don't believe that just because I don't personally have the time, that my dogs unworthy of passing on their DNA.

 

I also think that most of the border collies I see from purely sport breedings are looking trashy and losing their edge. I don't want to be a 'breeder', I just want to breed my dogs for myself.

 

This was supposed to be an AKC/ABC sort of debate, not a personal attack, I felt I needed to defend myself, when really I am not against you guys.

 

FYI I have contacted the only USBCHA-style herding instructor within 2 hours of my house and am waiting for her fields to dry up to a workable point, at which point I plan to train with her at least once a week or so, and work on my own when I can at a friend's place who has some sheep.

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How will you know if your dog got red-Ned's faults (Ned did have working faults) unless you train him up? How will you know what type (in terms of working style and ability) is the right cross for your dog unless both (male and female) are worked and trained up to the Open level (not neccessarily running Open but able to do all the tasks in an Open course).

 

Mark

 

BTW Ned has been retired (early) to a pet home.

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No, I am not going to quit agility and take up herding. I have neither the time nor money nor acreage to do this. Does this mean I should never breed my dogs??
Yes, it means you shouldn't breed your dogs.

 

I'm sorry if you think you're being picked on but you're providing us with an good example of the attitude and actions that I feel are a big part of the problem.

 

PS This is not about only breeding dogs who excel in Open, although that's the standard some people use. It's about the dog having the experience, and the would-be breeder having the experience for proper evaluation of the dog, and, if worthy, then being able to choose a good mate for that individual dog.

 

If a dog is not worked to a high standard -- a true high standard -- not a non-working person or novice's idea of a high standard, then there's no way to know the many characteristics in that individual that need to be compensated for or will be complimented in a specific cross.

 

As Mark said, it's not as simple as "have instinct" vs "don't have instinct." It's very complicated.

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I don't want to be a 'breeder', I just want to breed my dogs for myself.
Then are you going to keep all the puppies and never breed them? Because if you sell them to others, and all of you continue to breed them, then you're taking homes from pups that were bred from truly proven parents. So those dogs will be bred LESS as your pups take that market.

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Well I'm not even tentatively planning to breed for at least two years, and yes, I do hope to train them to as close to an Open level as I can. I'm not going to be a 'breeder'. All working dogs have faults, and unfortunately I never got to see Ned work; Drifter was a leftover puppy that I got at 4 months. His mother has shown in Novice-Novice but is primarily an agility dog.

My plan with my female is to breed her once, for myself, and then spay her. I still might spay her and get a puppy elsewhere. I understand "instinct" vs. "not having instinct". If all I wanted was Instinct, would I really plan to go herding several times a week (if I can borrow my friend's sheep, which I have in the past)? I have absolutely NO interest in AKC herding.

 

You must also keep in mind that while you don't think I understand what a good herding dog needs to be, I also think you don't understand what a good agility dog needs to be. Not just any herding cast-off will do. I DO compete at the highest level, and I do look for very specific temperament and ability in my dogs. If I have dogs that have these rare traits, I am going to want to try to continue this. But I also understand that these traits are present in my dogs BECAUSE they are working-bred dogs. Not the best bred on earth, and I do have some reservations about breeding them (my female especially), but I won't spay/neuter now when I don't know what they'll do yet. (My girl is only a year old)

 

My male is an exceptional agility dog, as Ned has produced quite a few exceptional agility dogs. I daresay I hope he turns out to be talented on stock. If he does, perhaps that will give me the incentive to get him out trialling. If he does not, I will neuter him.

 

I know more people than i'd like to admit that do exactly what you are afriad of - breed exclusively for the sport of agility. Honestly, many of those dogs look/act kind of trashy, and are not any better than those dogs bred from working lines. I have no desire to be one of those people.

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No, I will not keep all the puppies but I will sell on a very strict spay/neuter contract.

 

Also, if you are listening to me, you will understand that I will breed my dogs IF they are good working dogs, and I will breed them TO good working dogs. This is not taking homes away from your ABCA breeders - as these pups should be the very same quality as your ABCA breeder pups, as they would indeed be ABCA - not AKC.

 

(I'm sure I'm going to get it for that one)

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>

 

Yes, but like most non-livestock-working people you are discounting the tremendous knowledge and experience you need to recognize that non-Open-winning dog from all the non-Open-winning farm dogs who are not worth breeding. You are also discounting the time and effort you would need to put in with your dog to make a sound determination whether he was worth breeding. This isn't something you can do (responsibly, anyway) as an adjunct or an afterthought to something else.

 

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I'm sorry, but the fact that your dog is half-brother to a dog whose father was a pro-novice champion is no better indication that he's worth breeding than an HSAs would be. The fact that you don't know that is yet another example about how you want to play without paying your dues.

 

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Yes, and I'm sure you'll market them as "working dogs, not Barbie dogs," and attract lots of customers because of your stature in agility. Another step down the road toward changing what a border collie is, and diluting working ability in the breed.

 

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I don't know you, so I'm not attacking you personally, but I'm very much attacking the mentality that says it's okay for lesser people to stick to principle, but someone who's great at agility really "has to" go where the money and glory leads, even if it's into the AKC. But hey, you're really on our side, because you look down on Barbies too.

 

Actions speak louder than words. You ARE against us and doing us harm.

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>

 

Wonderful. Cultivate those reservations. Reflect on them. Hold them to your heart.

 

 

{I'm sure I'm going to get it for that one} >>

 

I'm glad you recognize why. Now may I introduce you to laurie etc? She should hear what you're saying here, as it illustrates our concerns so well.

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No, I won't attract lots of customers because as I said I don't want to become a breeder. My dog's father is the same as Danger's father, Ned, that is how they are half-brothers. No that is not a huge brag, I am just pointing out that he did work to a degree. i do know he was retired early, but he wasn't yet when he was bred to my dog's mother.

 

I am going to take lessons from some knowledgeable USBCHA instructors in my area, and when/if I breed I plan to get a lot of input from them.

 

Essentially, you will always believe I am ruining your breed. And I will always believe I am not. I will not be 'marketing' my dogs at all. I won't need to - yes people do know me in agility. I would not market them to any working people who don't know them.

 

And, technically, you are attacking me personally because I am the one trying to explain my own personal viewpoint and why I believe it isn't wrong. You will not change my mind - although a long and similar conversation I had with a breeder once did convince me that I really need to work my dogs hard on stock before considering breeding.

 

I will never change your mind, although I believe I do understand your point. I'm not sure you understand me, but I hope you are trying. I am in no way attempting to change the breed. They are amazing animals as they are. The barbie collie split has already happened. I don't really think it's going to have much affect on the ABCA dogs in the long-term, but that is just my personal opinion, not based on anything.

 

by the way I do know Laurie. I am not trying to replace your working dogs.

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If the AKc owned the USBCHA, and you had to register to run Internation style Open courses in the US - would you do it?

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No. I enjoy trialing a lot, but I would walk away from it tomorrow if I could thereby in some way protect the border collie from the AKC. I don't place my personal pleasures above the interests of the breed.

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Also, if you are listening to me, you will understand that I will breed my dogs IF they are good working dogs, and I will breed them TO good working dogs. This is not taking homes away from your ABCA breeders - as these pups should be the very same quality as your ABCA breeder pups, as they would indeed be ABCA - not AKC.
No, I am listening. What I'm saying is that you won't know how to evaluate what good working dogs are, and therefore the pups will not be the same quality as true working bred pups.

 

And frankly, I find it offensive that you feel you can, with minimal effort, while concentrating on agility, learn about working border collies to the extent that you can breed the same quality of dogs as people who've had livestock and border collies all their lives as a primary focus and with that experience and knowledge, strive for the very highest quality of working dog.

 

Let's reverse this. I think my Kate would make a world class agility dog and I can sell her pups to agility homes. I don't do agility, but I'm going to take her to a few starter classes before I breed her. I'm sure I'll know then that she has what it takes to be a world class agility dog, so then I can advertise her as world class agility quality. I know she's fast and athletic but I don't want to take away from my time working stock to train her to the highest level. Does this mean I shouldn't breed her with the claim that she's world class agility quality?

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If the AKc owned the USBCHA, and you had to register to run Internation style Open courses in the US - would you do it?
No. And neither would a bunch of other people. We would form a new association that is in keeping with our goals.

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Denise and Eileen - Amen and amen.

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I do feel the need to defend Rosanne here - She and her dog are very real contenders for a spot on the Agility World Team in the next couple of years. As the system stands right now, the only way to do that is to put up with AKC's BS politics, whether you agree with them or not. Like it or not, Border Collies ARE the top agility dogs in every country. I think striving to represent your own country in any venue of competition is a worthy endevour. IF Rosanne succeeds in making the team, it doesn't mean she WILL be breeding her dog and making lots of little AKC agility puppies (in fact I'd bet she has had plenty of agility people soliciting her already - but she has not fallen for it). Rosanne grew up doing non-AKC agility - she's new to this "ABCA culture" and here trying to learn - just like everyone else.

 

PS - FYI -that pro-nov dog that is her dog's father is actually a nice imported Open level trial dog - that has since been sold to a farmer (and neutered); his mother is a very handy working bitch who also excels in agility and only produced one small litter before being spayed. IMO, a lot worse could be bred...

edited to say - wow! you guys type alot faster than me - so I guess I didn't need to add my PS.

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as an open question, if I wanted to breed my bitch to your stud, what would she need to be able to do to prove her worthiness?

 

work an Open-type course? Prove an exceptional usefulness on stock? Shred her AKC papers?

 

Thank you Laurie.

 

I grew up in agility, have been doing it for 14 years now, and only in the last 2 have I done any akc. I wish USDAA's international competitions were better, but they are impossible to get onto (dogs who travel and trial EVERY weekend get enough points to get on, and dogs who can beat them, but can't afford to trial as much can't get on), and right now are not the best competition in Europe. Hopefully in the enxt 10 years USDAA and IFCS will get it together and I will no longer have any need to show in AKC agility. I pre-date it, I dislike their stupid politics, and I agree that they ruin breeds.

 

Telling me I am patently wrong will not change my stance. Telling me what my dogs can do to be considered true working dogs might help.

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She and her dog are very real contenders for a spot on the Agility World Team in the next couple of years.
If she is at that level of expertise in agility then why is she unable to generalize that expertise in another area, working stock, takes talent and experience beyond what she imagines is needed?

 

IMO, a lot worse could be bred...
Now that's a high standard to aspire to.

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Handler expertise and a dog's natural ability are two entirely unrelated things. Ability to recognize it is related. That is why I have stated numerous times that I am going to get instruction from knowledgeable people.

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From what I can determine it appears that at least some of you in fact, don't raise herds of things, like sheep, for a living but participate in herding trials in order to train and prepetuate the historical qualities of the breed. My grandfather's last BC, a true "Sheppie" born of working farm stock knew when my grandfather headed for the barn that it was milking time, and that he was supposed to go get all the cows. As what you would call a "Free will" BC, he did it very well 2x a day, on time every time. What he did between milking times was his own business and he occupied himself with being a great family dog, chasing balls, keeping the grandkids and the chickens out of the road and hunting predators. Plus, he was very good looking in the "classic" or (insultingly) Barbie way -- and I'm guessing he possessed a sound constitution, since he worked hard, ate well and lived to a ripe old age. Would you have bred him?

 

I'm glad that there are folks out there that are preserving the herding traditions, because now adays most cows are kept in the barn 24/7 and 4-wheelers have mostly taken the place of a good dog (try and send that machine out on its own to retrieve stock!), and and worrying about the fate of the farmers and ranchers in America is beyond the scope of this board.

 

There's no sense (or any reason) to defend a position other than herding qualities first on this board, mainly because its your board, so you're entitled to guide the discussion, but in my mind both herding and agility competitors are doing the same thing -- breeding dogs for competitions because unless you farm or ranch for a living, what you're doing is a hobby. Those physical qualities so important in agility give the herding dog grace and ability to perform his chores. And honestly, what's wrong with a good looking dog that has a nice coat, markings, and a confirmation that are traditional to the breed I don't know much about genetics, but sometimes isn't color is linked to other physical qualities...

 

Now, I'm even worse. My idea of agilty is watching our dog jump a ditch or catch a ball. I have nothing to herd. I hopped onto this board because I wanted to learn more about our adoptee's modern body type and abilities... she's different than the traditional BC's I've known over the years. I have my answer She was a cast-off, and to all of you, probably worth nothing more than what she is -- a priceless companion.

 

So, have at it folks, and good luck. Just give the rest of us a break now and then. We pick up the washouts and give them a good home, give them something worthwhile to do, and for the most part prevent them from reproducing, even though your gene pool might need those qualities we value one day.

 

Recognizing that I have nothing in common with you, and that I'm probably viewed with contempt, I'll be dropping out of the board.

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If the AKc owned the USBCHA, and you had to register to run Internation style Open courses in the US - would you do it?
Nope!!!

The hard part is getting people to understand just what it is that they don't know. If they knew it, there wouldn't be an argument. You know the old addage...."I'm sure my dog could make it to open with a better handler...more time on stock, better sheep, better trainers"...so on and so on.....

So the battle rages on and on. I still say it's going to be won or lost one person at a time. So Eileen and the rest of the working dog elitists(yes it's a very hard "title" to earn)...don?t give up...PLEASE! If it takes a day or a life time, it's not wasted, one changed person makes for another ready to learn.

Kristen

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