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No, unfortunately this is not true. What they will do is (1) accept for registration any dog registered with the ABCA, and after the dog is AKC registered it can compete, or (2) give an ILP number to any spayed or neutered dog that is claimed to be a border collie, and that they think looks like a border collie, and for which pedigree information cannot be provided. This what jrid just referred to, and is the normal route to competition for rescue dogs. But note that you CANNOT do this if you tell them your dog is registered with the ABCA. In that case, they will require full AKC registration or they won't let you compete.

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Did anyone read where they were going to lessen their requirements for the Champion title? It is in their minutes somewhere.

 

They were asking if anyone was for giving a title less then a Championship for Border Collies and their owners that wanted to compete in conformation but did not want to lose their ABCA papers. They throw it out, saying that anyone who really shows in conformation won?t care if they have ABCA papers.

 

So, I took it as, with the ABCA?s decision to revoke dog's registration that get their Champion title, ABCA made them do a double take.

 

I was recently revved up on this subject when I was told by a AKC Barbie Collie Conformation supporter that they voted to keep the AKC stud book open because if AKC closed it that it would be leaving them with just ?Barbies.? Yes, this lady used the word ?Barbies.?

 

So in other words, they want our dogs to help pepper up their dogs with some drive whenever they get low. They are just using us for what we have and they do not.

 

Katelynn

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Thanks Laurie. I for one do not wish to have Jackson anywhere near AKC. I am sure they will suck the intelligence right out of him! :rolleyes:

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And thank you Eileen. Well, they ain't getting Jackson! I have warned Jackson about them,,,,,he now is worried about being around AKC dogs,,,,I told him not to worry but to tone down his smug look! :rolleyes:

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" But note that you CANNOT do this if you tell them your dog is registered with the ABCA. In that case, they will require full AKC registration or they won't let you compete. "

 

Has this changed in the last 4 years? I started out doing agility with my first Border Collie, and acquired an ILP for him. I remember putting his ABCA # on the application and providing documentation that he was neutered. That was it I think. Full registration wasn't required. (They rejected his name - Champ - hehehe)

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I have not had Jackson neutered because frankly I don't know what he will be when he grows up. And if he is exceptional I know the ladies will be lining up! Hee Hee. However, IF Jackson is not, then I will neuter him just so that when I get a female, well, you know. And if he is not going to perpetuate his genes, well, there really is no use in him having the equipment! And I still will not allow him registered with AKC. I cannot support a group that has done so much to harm breeds on one hand while with the other talk about how much they care about the breeds. JMO

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Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

We would require the owner's certification of non-AKC registration on our registration applications. Falsification of certifications are subject to disciplinary action.

Thanks for explaining this - I had no idea how it could work.

 

As for "ratting out," you can call it that if you like. If you saw a dog being beaten at a dog trial, in violation of the rule against dog abuse, would you be "ratting out" if you brought it to the attention of the HA? Are people who bring to our attention puppy millers' misrepresentations of parentage "ratting out"?
I see your point. It was a poor choice of words (I'm well known for that) as I would be all in favor of "reporting" these examples of abuse and deception that you provide.

 

If they so strongly want to register with the AKC, I think they will just stop registering with the ABCA.
If one or more of your suggestions can be implemented, then this may be the best we can hope for.

 

I didn't mean to be argumentative, I just didn't understand how restrictions could be readily implemented. How does ABCA currently become "aware" of conformation championships on dual-registered dogs, so that they can be de-registered by ABCA? Is this something that happens with any regularity?

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Deb,

This is what AKC says:

"If you have a purebred dog that cannot be registered with the AKC [emphasis added] and have a desire to see what your dog can do in real competition, an ILP number is your ticket...." and this: "Enrollment in the Indefinite Listing program is not to be construed as an alternative form of registration, but rather, as a listing so that dogs who are ineligible for AKC registration may participate [emphasis added] in AKC Companion and Performance Events." And of course ILPed dogs must be neutered.

 

Is Champ neutered? If so, then giving AKC his ABCA number wouldn't mean anything because AFAIK AKC won't register neutered dogs (except via ILP, which isn't really registration).

 

If Champ wasn't neutered and you had an ABCA registration for him, I take that to mean that AKC would have required you to get a full AKC registration (that is, if he was breedable and was registered with ABCA, you would not have gotten an ILP).

 

J.

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They were asking if anyone was for giving a title less then a Championship for Border Collies and their owners that wanted to compete in conformation but did not want to lose their ABCA papers. They throw it out, saying that anyone who really shows in conformation won?t care if they have ABCA papers. >>

 

Kate, this was under consideration by the BCSA, not the AKC. The AKC itself would not change the requirements for the Champion title. But the BCSA herding committee apparently suggested (unsuccessfully) to the BCSA board that a special award be given to try to circumvent the ABCA's policy of de-registering champions. Here's the excerpt from the herding committee's annual report to the membership:

 

Another Possible Form of Recognition As ABCA will "deregister" Border Collies which earn AKC breed championships perhaps there could be something to acknowledge Border Collies which have good conformation but do not wish to endanger their ABCA registration. Example: earn 2 majors and 10 points at AKC breed shows. The Board felt this would impact very few people and that the majority of those that show in conformation don?t care if their dogs are de-registered.

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Deb and Julie:

 

The AKC does register spayed/neutered dogs. (What you may be thinking of, Julie, is that spayed/neutered dogs are not eligible to be shown in conformation.) Therefore, a spayed/neutered ABCA-registered border collie is eligible for registration. (At least if it "looks like a border collie." More about this later in another thread.) Therefore, under the terms Julie quotes, Deb's dog would be eligible for AKC registration and therefore ineligible for ILP.

 

I have had a few people report to me that they tried to get ILPs on spayed/neutered ABCA-registered border collies and were told that they could not -- they would have to apply for full registration, because ILPs are available only to unregisterable dogs. But it's entirely possible that the AKC office staff is not consistent in their application of the rules, and that sometimes registerable dogs get through. I can certainly vouch for the fact that they're inconsistent in deciding whether a dog looks enough like a border collie to qualify. Or I suppose there could have been a policy change that I don't know about.

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Eileen, I?m sticking my neck out here, because I really love participating in this board, and learning all I can about working dogs. I do appreciate all the time and effort that goes into it. I?m a convert ? so to speak.

But I guess what I don?t understand is why some of you feel so threatened or intimidated by AKC? No one is requiring any of you to dual register ? or to register your dogs at all. I totally understand the ?feeling? that ?AKC ruins breeds for their intended purpose?. Heck, I owned Golden Retrievers for over 20 years ? but I never blamed the registry, only the greedy, beauty pageant obsessed breeders and parent club ?gurus?, who would breed for the ultimate ?pretty-fluffy? rather than the ultimate hunter?s companion. The parent club writes the standard and educates the judges. At least in the UK, the kennel club requires some sort of working proficiency with Goldens to grant a full Championship ? other wise ?pretty-fluffy? is considered only a ?Show Champion?.

My main point is that since ABCA does not allow ?reverse dual registering?, in other words, an AKC dog can never become and ABCA dog , why would any one in ABCA be worried that the working gene pool will be diluted? If a rancher is looking for a working Border Collie, they would certainly get one from a working breeder (ABCA, NASD or ISDS). They wouldn?t even give a glance to an ?AKC Barbie Collie?. I?ve been around Hunting American Foxhound people for years, and they also have their own registry of working lines ? The Masters of Foxhounds Association. They just laugh at what AKC has done to ?stylize? their so-called American Foxhound. They dismiss them as ?unimportant?, they don?t feel threatened by them. And no Huntsman looking to form or improve a hunting Foxhound pack would ever think of using AKC hounds. I understand the same is true with Coonhounds, and some other true working breeds that have their own ?keepers of the working pedigrees?.

If the worry is that ABCA registered dogs will dual register and be good at agility or obedience, and possibly produce some agility or obedience puppies, what is really the big deal? If they are pure ABCA line dogs, what?s worse about that than all the ABCA breeders who don?t prove their dogs at anything? (I don?t have access to statistics, but just judging from the people on this list, I bet 50-75% of the Border Collies in America are ?pets?, not working stockdogs; and I bet that a large percentage of ABCA registered litters are not from Open level trial dogs, either.) And if those agility/obedience pups are only ? ABCA- ? Barbie, then they can?t be dual registered, thus ending the dilution issues.

I know for a fact that many ?Barbie? fanatics consider the average ABCA dog ?poor quality farm dogs?, and look down on them as inferior. Does that really bother me? No, it urks me; but mostly I think it?s amusing, and they are pretty misguided and delusional people! When asked about the obvious differences in the two dogs, I do my best to explain the working vs. Barbie to people without offending them. In my non-affiliated profession (which is teaching all breed obedience and agility ? including mixed breeds) I don?t see the need to preach the evils of any registry (even though I have some serious issues with AKC and the integrity of their management) ? because that?s not what?s important to me. The dogs and their people are.

Also, as for your response regarding the ABCA offering incentive to bad breeders? It?s not that I see them offering incentive, but by NOT being proactive and taking a stance against high-volume breeding, they are FACILITATING the unscrupulous and greedy. It?s human nature to take the path of least resistance, and ABCA registration is just that for someone producing multiple litters for profit.

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Denise, you are a treasure.

 

This statement specifically address Laurie's suggestion that we not worry as long as we've got our pool of top dogs (forgive me, Denise, for drawing these out of context - I do highly recommend to everyone to read the entire post):

 

So let?s say if only red circle dogs were crossed, only 80% of that number of red circle dogs would be produced in the next generation. (This is a hypothetical number ? it may actually be less.) Therefore, breeding only red circle dogs will not replace all of the red circle dogs, and the number of red circle dogs will drop each generation if only these crosses are used.

and the short answer:

 

the top breeders still rely on the peripheral pools of dogs who are not as good themselves but who are good breeders, to provide some of their next generations of top red circle dogs. As long as the emphasis is on breeding for work and the momentum of most of the breeding is going toward breeding for the bull?s-eye and concentrating only the working genes, the number of red circle dogs will be replaced each generation and maybe even expanded.
This is the state of affairs up to now. We are facing a situation RIGHT NOW where the "orange" dogs are already feeling pressure from the dogs on the very bottom, that formally wouldn't have been bred. This is largely the result of the AKC programs (conformation AND performance) that reward breeding for purposes other than working ability.

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Laurie,

 

We are worried because this is our breed because our care for it goes beyond "Hey, I own one of those really neat dogs too!"

 

I also don't like being used for working lines from people (AKC Barbie supports) who have screwed their lines up so bad that they want us to keep ours at a open ready for them when their dogs get dumb down to where they are no longer good at anything!

 

Just like we've been saying, many breeders will not sell on contracts. It is just not in them. In the sheepdog world, most things go on trust. As a whole, we are very trusting and understand people.

 

So, when a farmer gets a good dog from some awesome ABCA breeding, then has puppies of his own later on and goes to sell them, what is to say he will be worried about AKC or even think about someone ruining those lines for just looks at some point?

 

What if those awesome working lines were lines that you BRED (maybe direct or indirect) yourself to perfection for working and then some trusting unknowing farmer sells into a home that is going to take your lines and run with them as fast as they can back to "pretty AKC land" to water those lines down to a point where even you cannot recognize them? All because they found a good buy from someone unknowing of AKC vs. working to sell them dogs of awesome ABCA lines.

 

AKC people may not care about keeping ABCA around but when they come looking for something to pepper up their lines, they aren't going to look at the expecting anti-AKC breeders. No, they are going to go to private working farms and ranches looking for honest people who have no idea just how good their lines are. They will look for lines that do good in trials because titles and names mean everything to them. They want the fame and that is what they will search out.

 

Have you by chance see the AKC Barbies? Really been up close and seen them? Interacted with them? Saw them on livestock (if you can call it "on livestock").

 

I am worried about AKC's involvement in this breed because this breed is something more then just a pet or some cool breed to me, its a way of life. I'd like to one day see my grandchildren and maybe even great grandchildren walk to post at ISDS type trials here in America with dogs that I have bred for generations from working and trialing dogs with no worries of AKC on my mind or theirs.

 

As for many dogs not being proven to the public. How many dogs in pedigrees of top dogs that are proven to the public eye? We don't flaunt as much as the conformation people or sport people for that matter. Just because you haven't heard of a line doesn't mean anything. So long as the dogs are good on the ranch or farm doing what they are breed to do, more then likely you are not going to hear about them. That is where the ability to see dogs on livestock and know what traits you are and are not looking for come into hand.

 

Katelynn

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Kate - I do understand your points, but not sure you understood mine. (And yes, I see Barbies every time I teach a class - as well as many, many other breeds that are no longer what they were intended to be, thanks to AKC's parent breed clubs.) But I think there are two distinct issues. The AKC/dual registry issue to me is a self-limiting problem. Once a dog has "crossed over" to being registering AKC and if its pups are only AKC registered by the owner's choice, there's no reverting them back to ABCA registration. (The only way its pups can be ABCA registered are if it is mated to an ABCA dog with no Barbie lines). If "my" Open trial dog's pedigree is part of that Quasi-Barbie puppy's pedigree, what difference would it really make, other than possibly my embarrassment for not choosing buyers more carefully? I might not like it, but those puppies won't be in the ABCA gene pool, so their non-working Barbie ancestry cannot dilute the working gene pool. If JQ Public chooses to see Barbies as "the ultimate Border Collie" what do I really care, because I know (and so does the working community) that they aren't. (And I will pass that information on to my kids and grandkids and so on.)

For me, a much bigger issue would be the high volume ABCA breeders that breed untested dogs, sell to hundreds of buyers who will then go on and breed those pups, and so on, and so on. These "ABCA registered working Border Collies" are going to be, as Denise hypothesized, so diluted from the true working goals of ABCA that they will be a mere shadow of a Border Collie, yet on paper, just a "genuine" as any Open Finals winner. Now that's something to be embarrassed about!

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I'll admit I'm new to these boards, but I HAVE been the somewhat amused but proud owner of at least one border collie for about 7 years now, and I've heard both sides of the AKC debate (well the AKC doesn't really HAVE a side. .. . do they?)

Honestly, Barbie Collies (with real hair you can brush!) make me want to puke. Especially when they say things like "herding instinct!" on their web pages. Yeah, I bet my retriever would've chased the sheep too! I had a Flat-coat with herding instinct, imagine that!

That said, I don't think there's any reaonable threat of dilution of to ABC working lines. Will you EVER breed to such a dog? No. I wouldn't. Yes, it might be of some concern if your lines end up in a pedigree of some foo-foo champion somewhere, but honestly, what difference does it make? It doesn't affect the true working dogs at all, and everyone with working dogs will continue to breed to working dogs and of course the breed has already split, just like pretty much every other working breed AKC has taken into its registry. In my mind it boils down to this:

1. It's too late, you can't stop it. There are now Barbie Collies in the world. Try not to puke.

2. Those dogs have nothing to do with your dogs. Keep doing what you're doing and be proud of it.

 

Did you know FCI recently de-invited the AKC's World Agility Team (then let them back in) because too many of our breeds of dogs over here deviate from theirs, and because of other issues with AKC in general (and of course they aren't FCI members).

 

I registered my ABCA dogs because I wanted to keep them intact, and I wanted to show AKC agility. Why? Because I have to if I want to try out for the FCI world team, and FCI requires a pedigree, no ILP's allowed. Also, there is a huge market for instruction from AKC competitors, and they don't always understand comparable USDAA(nonAKC) titles. (USDAA is like agility's USBCHA - international style, harder courses).

 

Will I herd with my AKC/ABC dogs? Yes, when I find the time. I do plan to breed 2 of my current dogs, but i WILL work them extensively on sheep BEFORE I make that final decision, and that will have a lot to do with who I breed them to.

 

(confessions of a dual-registerer)

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I'm just curious about something, Rosanne, because I hear from a lot of top-level agility competitors that "I'd train my dogs to USBCHA Open but I don't have enough time." Do you plan to make competancy at the Open level your basic standard, as it is for most working Border collies?

 

I also ask because I'm not an Open handler myself yet (been very close with a couple dogs but cricumstances intervened), and I've had to make the hard decision to neuter or spay my dogs based on my realization that I wouldn't be able to demonstrate their competancy at the Open level - there just weren't enough years in a dog's life for that. It's taken me ten years to where I can almost depend on my current young female being able to take me to Open, and, more importantly, where I can see clear to possibly doing the training myself.

 

I've been slower than most catching on than most. But I look around and don't see anyone COMPETANTLY breeding their first litter who've been at it less than five years or so, and at least some of that in Open.

 

I consider all of this very carefully because the last thing I want to do is bring yet another litter of mediocre Border collies into the world - mediocre as defined by the ONLY standard that matters for the breed - their working ability. So I spayed Jen, whose littermate sister competes at high levels in agility and flyball, Jen who stands 15 1/2 inches tall and makes many a sport person drool when they see her run a flyball course. Jen can do basic farm chores and will probably be able to run a ProNovice course with a couple more months' training. She may even make it to Open if she lives long enough and her handler, my husband, sustains interest in training.

 

But I know her weaknesses were a dead end in considering the next generation, trying to create superior stockdogs starting with her genetics. So I spayed her and we have been able to enjoy her immensely for her own self, rather than as a potential puppy producer. Would you have spayed Jen?

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I registered my ABCA dogs because I wanted to keep them intact, and I wanted to show AKC agility. Why? Because I have to if I want to try out for the FCI world team, and FCI requires a pedigree, no ILP's allowed.

 

Which is pretty lame, if you ask me. Why feed the beast? Also, the prospect of getting onto the World Team is realistic for maybe .0000001% of agility handlers out there, so this is not really a viable excuse for registering with AKC except MAYBE for one handler in a zillion.

 

Also, there is a huge market for instruction from AKC competitors, and they don't always understand comparable USDAA(nonAKC) titles. (USDAA is like agility's USBCHA - international style, harder courses).

 

(a) I don't understand why anyone needs to do AKC agility. Maybe you want to, that is fine. But no one needs, to, thus this is not a valid argument for the "necessity" of dual-registering. There is hardly a shortage of non-AKC agility in the mid-Atlantic region of the U.S.

 

(:rolleyes: Why does it matter if your instructor understands USDAA titles? Are you at class to learn and have fun, or to front?

 

I used to live in your area. There is no shortage of extremely competent trainers out there who understand USDAA in and out.

 

Will I herd with my AKC/ABC dogs? Yes, when I find the time.

 

Right -- it isn't a priority for you.

 

I do plan to breed 2 of my current dogs, but i WILL work them extensively on sheep BEFORE I make that final decision, and that will have a lot to do with who I breed them to.

 

But you've already planned to breed them, without having any idea what they might contribute to the breed as a whole. If they suck at working stock, will you neuter them? And you seem to believe that there is some sort of cursory herding "test" for your dogs to pass to get the rubber stamp of breeding privileges... I'm sorry, I know you mean well, but this is the mentality that's going to lead to the downfall of the breed.

 

I'd rather see people breeding Barbie Collies, because then at least the split is clear, obvious, and not nearly as insidious.

 

Look, I recognize your last name and know agility is probably very very important to you, but please understand why people who value the working Border Collie are not going to stand up, cheer, or pat you on your back for your plans to breed Sport Collies or the fact that your dogs are dual registered. Agility is fun -- I enjoy it myself -- but it is not a valid reason for breeding more dogs, unless you're only interested in producing "lowest common denominator dogs."

 

At least you're not breeding for flyball, I guess.

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>

 

Sure they do. Their side is that you have to register with them if you want to try out for the World Agility Team, and it'll be easier for you to attract AKC agility students. Works for some, I guess.

 

Why is it more puke-worthy to breed Barbie Collies than to breed Sport Collies? Is it a matter of looks?

 

Just out of curiosity, will you be registering your pups with ABCA, and if so, why?

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Eileen ,

the question is why not regester her Bc pups with ABCA, If Abca allows it why not?

Many of the breeders of ABCA dogs also regester with AKC .

A person that I know just got a pup out of monatana it will be reg Isds abca akc , at lest thats what she told me.

To me Imuch rather have a bc in asport than sitting at home trying to escape and the owner gets another Bc to play with the first one. Then they have to give them up because the are destructive.

In aperfect world i would totaly agree only proven working Bcs should be breed and only sold to those that will work stock. but this will not happen Just check out the web so many dual regestered dogs are up for sale Every day more and more bcs are going to Sport homes .

 

As adog person all my life I have never seen any educational material distributed by the ABCA. does the ABCA educate the puplic on the role of the BC ?

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Laurie,

 

The threat of AKC is overwhelming because . . . . .

 

Most litters that dual with AKC start off from ABCA registered working type Sires and Dams. Then the puppies are dual registered and sold off to homes (Litter A, dual registered).

 

Then the litter of dual registered dogs go on to be "fast" agility dogs or whatever in AKC. From there they are bred with no importance or mind to keeping the working ability in the dogs. The puppies from the dogs in litter A are then registered with the AKC and the ABCA (Litter B, dual registered).

 

This litter of dual registered dogs turn out to be even neater "faster" agility dogs then their Sires and Dams that are dual registered. More interest in all the AKC breeders is brought on and the owners of these new puppies forget about keeping ABCA papers on their dogs because the ABCA papers are no longer of importance to them because working ability means nothing to them.

 

So the puppies (Litter C) from the dogs in Litter B are all registered with just the AKC. ABCA is forgotten about.

 

Now, I am sure you can see where this is going. In the long run, the ABCA loses registration fees from breeders and also loses breeders to the AKC. If more then 60-70% of the breeders and owners of Border Collies move from the ABCA to the AKC, what do you think it going to happen?

 

Not only would we be losing, maybe, some good lines to AKC, we are also losing money, breeders, buyers, owners, and members.

 

So in the long run, we'd lose not only our true working dogs to a registry full of people who could care less about the real thing, we'd possibly be losing the biggest registry in America that supports and holds a big part in the future of our breed.

 

Dual registering is only the start.

 

Thinking of it this way, I do not understand in the slightest way why ABCA is sitting back and letting dual registration go on. Either way, we are losing people, dogs, and money every day to the AKC.

 

Katelynn

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Isn't the REAL point here the fact that there is not ONE single breed that the AKC took in that has been improved. That in fact they have all become "shells" of what they were intended for. And regardless of all the yap, the fact is, if you try to breed BCs for agility or flyball, or flycatcher, just a few generations down the line you will have a breed of dogs that are hit and miss on being good at ANYTHING! You can't put the cart before the horse. It is not good agility dogs that make good herders, it is good herders who make good agility dogs. If you can't see that,,,,,,,,I don't believe your stand will ever change. AKC is about money,,,,,not dogs, not their abilities, not their skills,,,MONEY-PRESTIGE-LOOKY WHAT MY DOG WON,,,,,,,,watch the next beauty contest,,,watch when they bring the BC out.......He doesn't even want to be there!

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