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IronHorse

A brief introduction

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Ok first off I know this website stirs up quite a few raw emotions. It does for myself as well. But, give the guy a chance to be able to do a bit of research for himself. Afterall, he came here to learn more and share his own experiences and barely gets to introduce himself before he gets questioned about his ethics for putting together a website for someone else.

 

While I don't agree w/ the website, look at it from this point of view also. He has had one-on-one contact from this person. He knows none of you personally except through this board. And you are expecting him to take your "word" as research over what this person has told him.

 

You have given him a great starting point to learn but to be honest, if I had gotten some of the responses that he's gotten from this post lately, I wouldn't want to come back to try and educate myself more. Just don't come on so strongly that you scare him away. It may defeat the purpose of educating people about BYB's and Puppy Mills.

 

And to Ironhorse:

Welcome! I hope you find this board to be as helpful as I have found it to be. There are some great people here w/ some great advice.

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I can honestly say that before I found this board I probably wouldn't have even *blinked* at a breeder who had several litters on the ground at the same time, or several a year. The reason for that is that before I came here I think I was pretty ignorant about the dog world in general (we all already know I was definately ignorant about Border Collies. No comments from the Peanut Gallery :rolleyes: ).

 

The culture of "those who shall not be named" has made it easy for the general populace to feel like if the dog has "papers" it must be good. Many people just aren't aware of what puppy mills are, and how they affect dogs and specific breeds.

 

IronHorse, I applaud your honesty and willingness to learn. If you've been feeling uncomfortable about the website then it's good that you're doing your homework and looking to find the answers you need. You have my support, and I'm sure that of the others here as well. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions I can help you with. Good luck, and keep working it out, my friend.

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Thank you Laura

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John

 

I see that you updated the site on the erroneous info on Miss Dolly. (see my posting above)

 

 

I am glad that you were willing to listen about our concerns.

 

I hope you have as much fun with your dogs as we do with ours. This board is a great place to learn/brag/enjoy etc....welcome

 

Thanks

Diane~

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IronHorse, welcome to the BC boards!

 

Most or all of us were at one time ignorant about what the Border Collie breed is all about. As with anything in life, when you really educate yourself on a subject you find that many of the things you believed to be true simply aren't.

 

I've been gone for a while and haven't been able to read your posts, but others mentioned in this thread that you seem to be an intelligent and responsible kind of guy, so I'll take their word for it. Stick around here, do some research on the internet and you'll come to appreciate the Border Collie breed for what it really is. Over time you will understand why the people here are so passionate about them, and I'm guessing that you'll likely feel the same eventually.

 

Don't let our passionate feelings scare you off, ok?

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Melanie,

 

Not sure how familiar you are with building web sites but Catalog.html is a standard name given by html generator/editors that build generic sites for you and you fill in the info. If course most pros I know now still write pages in code, rarely using generators- if you can write in code then you have greater flexibility and can even get the page made faster with feature rich scripts.

 

A quick look at the source code of the home page tells me this was indeed created by a generator. As well as a few other things which I'll not post here.

 

Eileen, how did you find this page initially?

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Diane; Yes some information has been removed that could not be substantiated at this time.

My dogs bring me great joy on a daily basis. I can only hope that I do the same for them.

 

SoloRiver; sorry to hear that you are ill, perhaps when your feeling better you can find the time to look up the definition of the word "catalog"

 

Miztiki; thank you for the welcome.I have found these boards to be quite useful and educational.

To be passionate about something is a quality that I admire, for from passion most often comes a more enlightened understanding as well as a broader Knowledgable database about that which one is passionate about.

Fanaticism on the other hand often times will cloud ones ability to see the difference.

I can ascertain between the two.

I assure you that passionate feelings will never "scare" me away from learning.

 

Annette; html generator/editors are quite commonly used both by "pros" and novices to create basic websites.

Personally I would much rather hear more of your rescue endeavors then your witch hunting endeavors.

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Originally posted by IronHorse:

Fanaticism on the other hand often times will cloud ones ability to see the difference.

As does willful ignorance.

 

Coffee, anyone?

 

RDM

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As a society, you cannot do rescue justice without reducing the number of puppies born by dogs that should not be bred. As long as people like this breed, dogs will need rescue and many of them will die because of the lack of space in rescue. This breeder is just making every rescuers hill harder to climb and so is your endorsement of her. So it is my job as an educator of rescue that everyone that may be ignorant that I encounter knows not to purchase a dog from breeders like this. If you doubt that BCs end up in shelters and die then perhaps you should visit your local shelter every once in a while and check petfinder.com for BCs in every state. You will see tons of them either in shelters or in rescue. Where do you think they come from? I challenge you to look around, not just once but often for the rest of your days and face the innocent comdemned.

 

Rename the file siresdams.html and you will stem the gag reflex in people. But I wouldn't want to tell you how to do your job- it just takes a sec to redo the links. I was just explaining that you didn't use catalog on purpose- it was just a generated page from a business web site template.

 

SoloRiver is a budding behavioral scientist (with degree in hand) so I think she passed 4th grade vocabulary.

 

RDM if I have another cup I'm likely to jump through the computer monitor.

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Hi everyone! My name is Shewster, and like some of you, I too am from the state of Missouri. I have been lurking for some time now, and have found your comments quite interesting as well as informative. The name of my small Kennel is HyKlas Border Collies, and, of course, like the rest of you, I am greatly concerned about the quality of all Breeders and Owners. Nevertheless, I find this to be quite an interesting discussion and I look forward to reading more of your comments.

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Hi Shewster! I hope you have read the "Read this first" sticky here: http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/cgi-bin...ic;f=1;t=008029

 

Enjoy your reading and stay to participate - it's not all breeder-bashing - we love the breed and all those who respect its working heritage.

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Annette;

You are attempting to make it sound as if this breeder is directly responsible for populating animal shelters and rescue organizations with dogs.If this were the case then said breeder would very rapidly put themselfs out of buisness.

She breeds purebred Border Collies only.I am familiar with the animal shelters in my area and I visit them on a regular basis and rarely do I see what I would concider as a purebred BC.

What I do see however are an overwhelming number of dogs that are of mixed breeds who are listed as BCs which I assume is done to make them appear more disirable as adoptables.

These mix breed dogs IMO are the results of irresponsible dog owners,not breeders.

Personally I put the majority of the over population problem on the irresponsible dog owners who for whatever reason choose not to spay or neuter.

 

This thread was begun as a simple introduction of myself nothing more,it was not I who solicited debate as to who should or should not breed Border Collies, However since the question was posted asking if I was associated with this paticular website ( which I quickly and honestly answered)I have found myself being grilled on the topic.

This breeder is not hiding,you have her contact information due to the open posting of her site on this thread.

I suggest that if you have questions or issue with her that you show her the curtesy of contacting her directly and honestly and directing your concerns to her.

As I have stated I am not a Breeder and I come to these boards to learn for my personel benefit.

 

As far as this thread is concerned I have introduced myself as elaboratly as I intend.

 

Sincerly;

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IronHorse -

 

My Buddy is a pure bred Border Collie with AKC papers that I got for RESCUE.

 

Bought from a BYB very much flashy and fancy like the one you support with your free work.

 

Of the 15 rescue dogs we have had to deal with on Oahu for the last 2 years - ALL BUT 3 OF THEM HAVE BEEN PAPERED WITH THE AKC.

 

Yeah...mixed dogs. Whatever.

 

You never did answer my question if she sells her merchandise with a spay/nueter contract.

 

Denise

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Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

Welcome aboard IronHorse.

 

Mark

IronHorse, let me alter this to say "Welcome to the fire, glad you jumped out of the frying pan". Perhaps you should change the thread title to "IronHorse: My trial by fire".

 

Okay folks, everyone has made the point very clear. How about we take the heat away for a while. It's hard to learn when you're being constantly pounded on; let the man digest what has been presented.

 

Mark

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Thanks Rebecca for the welcome!

Sure, you're NOT INTO BASHING?!!!!!! What gives you the right to judge everyone else. Who in the heck do you think you are; the BORDER COLLIE POLICE? Everyone has a right to their own opinion, this is a FREE country! JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED. Get real folks! I may be new to this board but I'm not stupid!

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Shewster,

 

It's not bashing. I don't think that people realize how awful the problem of BC over population is. What give us the right to judge- well ask RDM just how much money has been spent on her rescuing of over 200 Border Collies? If there was no problem then there would be no spending, no heartache. I used to breed dogs and now I rescue. I understand how easy it is for people to justify what they do. Let me tell you something, I had a seven page sales contract that provided for the return of any dog to me ON MY DIME in the event that it wasn't wanted anymore. And they all left my house neutered or I picked them up from owners houses at seven months old and neutered them! I only ever bred a litter for a dog for myself and never more often than 1 litter in 3 years. So in 10 years I produced a total of 8 Sheltie puppies- not so many right?

 

But here is the kicker- No matter how well my contract was written, I don't live in the state where I was living and some buyers have moved also and I don't know where Domino, Jack, & Skye are and their owners don't know where I am. What I know from doing rescue is that lots of breeders don't know where their pups are- and I know also from doing rescue that I'm taking in dogs that other people have bred and the reality is that some do care about what happens to the dogs and really, some just don't. I get upset when I realize that I can't be there for those dogs if they should need me- no matter how hard I tried to fill in all the holes and be responsible to them. The only thing I can be certain about is that none of them went on to breed making my ethical responsibility that much greater.

 

So if there isn't a need to breed a litter of BCs for working purposes, then there isn't a need to breed- normal everyday families generally cannot handle these dogs no matter how committed they seem to a bundle of fur and puppy breath.

 

So here is where I get my right to speak- I've been on both sides of the fence. The only right thing I feel I can do is help clean up the mess that people make by breeding too many BCs.

 

Yes it is a free country & I freely would sacrifice my family to keep it that way too.

 

Better said we are the keepers of Higher Border Collie Education- It is the purpose of this board to preserve the working BC by educating people. As a final note, just because something is legal does not mean it is an ethical endeavour, worthy of honor. I learned that first hand, the hard way and I don't expect people of differing opinions to change them over night- I hope they will see, given time and their own experience. But if not, then I can only continue on to the next person in the hopes of saving MY beloved breed.

 

I hope and pray that you do a better job than I did & know where all your babies are at all times and they never find themselves alone and needing someone to show kindness. Because not knowing, and caring about it, frankly stinks. But know that should one of your babies ever need rescuing and you don't know it, hopefully one of us rescuers can be there for them to show kindness and give them the very best second start in life they could ever wish for. I'm not bashing you at all, for all I know you have livestock and enough work for all your breeding dogs, if you breed at all. Since you are quoting scripture allow me, as these are scriptures that teach us how we are to care for animals: 2 Samuel 12:3 But the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him., Proverbs 12:10 A rightous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel., Deuteronomy 22:4 (God's command for rescue!) If you see your brother's donkey or ox fallen on the road, do not ignore it. Help him get it to it's feet.

 

Very sincerely,

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Shrewster,

 

I'll tell you who in the heck I think I am -- I'm someone who, when the breed is ruined by puppy millers, BYB and AKC types, will still be able to look at myself in the mirror and know I did the best I knew how to do to support the working breed as it was meant to be. Can you say the same?

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Is there any other bashing out there before I reply, I mean, let's hear it. That's what you love to do, isn't it? See your name in print and try to show how "intelligent" you are. I'm sure we are entertaining a lot of people out there. Sometimes it gets past the point of teaching, more like slashing back at one another, how pathetic. I don't believe we should be doing this at all. For example, what you did to Ironhorse was unconscienable. Some of you should be ashamed of yourself. Enough said for now. Shewster.

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Shrewster,

 

I would appreciate it if you would simply answer my question since I answered yours. Here it is again in case you missed it:

 

I'm someone who, when the breed is ruined by puppy millers, BYB and AKC types, will still be able to look at myself in the mirror and know I did the best I knew how to do to support the working breed as it was meant to be. Can you say the same?

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Originally posted by Shewster:

Is there any other bashing out there before I reply, I mean, let's hear it. That's what you love to do, isn't it?

 

Oh, for the love of........

 

How about not resorting to the name-calling and petty accusations?

 

This board is here for border collie advocates in general, and working border collie advocates in particular. This should be pretty obvious even to the first time poster. (Hell, if I can get that then anyone can!) Training/working/loving mixed breeds and AKC border collies IN ITSELF should be praised. By all means, if you have a dog then do something with it! However, breeding border collies for anything other than the ability to work stock should not.

 

I fail utterly to understand just what about Eileen's introduction can be considered "bashing." Someone has to step up and say what needs to be said in order to save the WORKING border collie, and thankfully there are a lot of brave types around here who are ready to do just that. If there was no "Border Collie Police," as you SO delightfully called them, then what do you think would happen to the true border collie? Don't worry, I am not expecting an answer.

 

If I wanted to be entertained by people who like to pick fights I'd be watching Jerry Springer. :rolleyes:

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