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Guy Stevens

Breeder question

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My family and I have decided to purchase a BC puppy. We had adopted a BC some yrs ago, so we know what we are getting into.

 

We also want to raise this puppy not adopt an adult dog. We have a breeder in mind, the litter was born on Feb. 23, 2995 and we have visited the litter three times (once a week). The Sire and Dam both have wonderful dispositions and we hope the offspring will have the same.

We were told the cost of the puppies would be between $350-$500. We are being told now that the puppies have been born and are all very healthy the price will be $500. I am thinking the breeder is playing on our emotions vs. giving a fair price.

What basis would a breeder have to charge that amount ? Both Dam and Sire are farm dogs not show dogs that we know of. What questions can we ask to make sure the price is justified?

 

How can I be sure I am being charged a fair price?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Guy

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If you can't trust your breeder, do not buy a pup from him or her. You need to have an ongoing working relationship with him or her throughout the life of the pup. If you feel from the start you are being "taken", just walk away and find someone with whom you feel you can have a more open relationship.

 

To answer your question in more general terms: I inquired once about a litter of pups from working lines, with eyes and hips checked, from parents that were both winning trials at the Open level. Those pups would have been $500. I didn't have a problem with that, but I'd hesitate to pay that for basically a pet, from parents who are pets [edit: I misread the original post - calling these farm dogs vs show dogs complicates things. Some of the best bred Border Collies are "farm dogs" and so are many back yard bred dogs - they just HAPPEN to live on a farm - asking to see them work can help sort this out].

 

You can get a pup from parents with "great temperaments" for quite a bit less in general, who also meet the rest of the traditional (working) standard for Border Collies.

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We had adopted a BC some yrs ago, so we know what we are getting into. >>

 

By the way, what happened to the BC you adopted? Just curious!

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My BC was almost $500 - this litter was from parents who were a mix of 'quality' - mom was pet quality that has done herding but had to stop after an injury to her paw, dad does herding (mostly cows/goats now), and used to compete in frisbee with the breeders daughter.

 

I hate to say this because it sounds mean-spirited and because you're such a nice thoughtful person, who I think is going to be a great Border Collie owner, but I am not particularly impressed by this breeding either on the face of it. What does "does herding" mean? Are these dogs improving the breed, or just making puppies? The breeder sounds like a nice person, but it takes more than that.

 

Your puppy is lovely and you're already in love with her and that is all wonderful, but if I were looking for a Border Collie puppy and had $500 to spend I'd be looking at very different kinds of breedings.

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This isn't meant towards anyone, but Solo I am so hearing what you are saying!!! I get so sick of people breeding just because they own a male, (that no doubt should be neutered) and someone else has an open bitch. I am a very stong beleiver that breeding should be for the betterment of the breed. All my dogs have been rescues. I hold nothing against people who buy their dogs. But you know what, papered dogs don't walk around waving their papers. No one knows until the owner brags. Means nothing to me. I wish people would start asking these "breeders" what their dog have to offer other than semen.

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Guest hdk9s
She only breeds once a year anyway, if that. Personally, I could are less about pedigree - all a pedigree is to me is a piece of paper. The rest is whats more important.
Very cute pup and I am glad you are happy with the purchase, but I have a question, I found this site and saw she had three litters due to hit the ground in November, of 2004. This is not including the DJ and Mistee breeding that produced your pup. This is more than one litter a year. I did not see anything about working the dogs. I did see a picture of them chasing some horses though. Just have to be careful when you are choosing as life long companion. Sometimes you have to go out of your area to find a pup.

 

The link I found.

http://www.williamshomesteadranch.com/Puppies%202004.htm

 

Good luck

Samantha

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Originally posted by High Desert K9s:

quote:
She only breeds once a year anyway, if that. Personally, I could are less about pedigree - all a pedigree is to me is a piece of paper. The rest is whats more important.

Very cute pup and I am glad you are happy with the purchase, but I have a question, I found this site and saw she had three litters due to hit the ground in November, of 2004. This is not including the DJ and Mistee breeding that produced your pup. This is more than one litter a year. I did not see anything about working the dogs. I did see a picture of them chasing some horses though. Just have to be careful when you are choosing as life long companion. Sometimes you have to go out of your area to find a pup.

 

The link I found.

http://www.williamshomesteadranch.com/Puppies%202004.htm

 

Good luck

Samantha

Yep that is my dogs breeder. She breeds her females once a year only.

 

Edit: edited my posts out - should not have to explain why I purchased my puppy. Thanks

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Guest hdk9s

I could be wrong BUT, $500 for a pup seems alot, Buying a puppy is a gamble. LIke I was told, out of 6 pups you may get 1-3 really spectacular dogs, and the rest could be good or bad. I paid $250 for my pup, with a guarentee that he will work.

 

Here is the dog we are looking at. She is a year old and will run us $800. The guy was really honest to us and the reason he may be selling her is she does not like working cattle, Does great on sheep. He is looking for a great dog that will work cattle and sheep to trial with.

 

http://www.bordercollies.us/molly

 

Here I put up a page as not to waste bandwidth

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Jessica I am going to chalk it up to your age that you think everyone NEEDS to know, or that you need to explain your dog. Your business is your business. You wrote that you don't need to explain why you bought your dog. No one asked you to. We are just happy for you being happy. Period. You do not have to prove anything to anyone. Although interesting, you do not have to push her pedigree.

You seem a bit defensive about this pup. If she makes you happy that is all that matters. Just enjoy her.

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Originally posted by GottaHaveBC:

quote:
Originally posted by High Desert K9s:

quote:
She only breeds once a year anyway, if that....

.... I found this site and saw she had three litters due to hit the ground in November, of 2004. This is not including the DJ and Mistee breeding that produced your pup. This is more than one litter a year....

The link I found.

http://www.williamshomesteadranch.com/Puppies%202004.htm

 

Good luck

Samantha

Yep that is my dogs breeder. She breeds her females once a year only.

 

Edit: edited my posts out - should not have to explain why I purchased my puppy. Thanks I guess we misunderstood what you meant by the statement "She only breeds once a year anyway, if that". Apparently this breeder actually breeds EACH of her females "only" once a year.

 

What a considerate breeder :rolleyes:

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Jessica,

Stop defending yourself and that puppy!!! No one cares where your dog came from. I paid NOTHING for mine. I don't mind saying it. I don't feel any less about myself or my boys. No one here cares. We all learn on this board. I haven't seen anyone judge you. You aren't rolling with big dogs here, just friendly people who own and love their dogs. Some not even purebred!

If other boards are slamming you, don't go there. I haven't been here long, but this board doesn't seem that way. Just sit back, settle in and be you :rolleyes:

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And I think what DogAholic meant was that it sounded like you meant she only had maybe one bitch that she may breed every year...if that. Made her sound very selective. 6-14 pups a yr. Instead she may have 7 bitches each being bred yearly, having 6-14 each. (don't know,didn't visit the site)

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I could be wrong BUT, $500 for a pup seems alot.....
It partially depends upon where you live; out here $350-$500 is typical and $500 is not uncommon.

 

Mark

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I paid $400 for mine three years ago. Out of working parents. I agree with Mark--$350-500 is perfectly reasonable. If I saw a pup for much more than that, I'd be wondering if it wasn't bred for some other purpose than working.

 

I also agree very strongly with Becca. If you think that breeder is trying to take you, then this is a bad start to what should be a good working relationship for some time to come. If you're not happy now, consider finding a breeder you truly trust.

 

J.

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I paid 200ea. for Tuck and Sam.... I have looked online at breeders some are out of their minds! Thousand or better... some 200 then 400 plus pay for shipping were the cheapest.

 

That said... Apparently, you were under the impression of 200 - 500 from breeder ( I will assume here)... So, ask her why 500. Could be she is going by show quality ( No hissing lol). She mite be willing to lower the price if the pup you are lookin at has say a broken collar ( you know the white fur around the nice). Price mite stay firm or higher for a bald face pup. Also let her know your plans ( on if you will be breeding with your pup ~ the rest is none of her buisness). If you will not be breeding and say willing to sign contract ...breeder lower fee. I've also noticed some breeders lower their fees as pups get older ( probably fear of being left holding a litter). Ask her about their lineage....if nothing champion in it.... you mite be able to haggle on the fee...

 

If the fee is higher than you want to pay, be prepared to walk away. Let breeder know up front hey, nice lookin pup. I like the parents personalities but... no champion in line, no herding, no flyball, no agility...just doesn't seem like a good price to chance not getting what I'm lookin for. I realize even with champs mite get a dude but chances are more in my favor for.... (whatever you are looking for).

 

Old saying " Never know till you ask". Good Luck!

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Okay, evidently I live in the wrong part of the country! All of you have much cheaper vet bills and less expensive dogs! I looked high and low for a border collie once I got a home...didn't want to have one shipped in (My borthers did that with their dogs - different breeds) because I wanted to meet the puppy first. I paid $1000 for Dublin and while I had a hard time coming to terms with that amount at first, I would do it again in a heartbeat. I did some research and that is the going rate around here. Also Dublin is a show dog from champion parents - not that that means a hoot to me, but I told the breeder I didn't want a dog with a strong herding instinct as sheep aren't going to play a part in his life....I know that it is cruel sometimes to keep a dog with a strong herding instinct as a pet...anyway, I really lucked out with my breeder...she breeds dogs for show as well as herding and she recommended one of her show dog lines as they are bred more for temperment that herding...she also took the time to educate me, showed me the parents hips, elbows and eye tests, had the pups all up to date on their shots and likes to keep in touch with the people who purchase her pups. She also makes you sign a contract saying you will neuter the pup (if not showing) and provide acceptable vet care...and if for any reason you can now longer take care of the dog, at any point in their lifetime, she will take the dog back - under no circumstances is the dog to be given up to a shelter or rescue...she maintains responsibility for the dog over his lifetime. She has numerous dogs on her property, all well-trained, beautiful and well exercised.... Many of her dogs have been fixed and are pets and/or herding dogs. She is the ideal breeder you read about.

 

Basically my point is, if you feel comfortable with the breeder and the pup, then go for it...I think that is more important that if you paid $5 or $1000 for the dog...

 

And - Gotta Have BC - I understand how you feel...I was a bit put off at first because I purchased a show dog (*gasp*) but honestly, a dog is a dog and they don't know or care what lines they come from - they just want to give love and be loved (which they definetely are!)

 

 

Kerry

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"I paid $1000" ... "a show dog from champion parents" ... "she breeds dogs for show" ... "She is the ideal breeder you read about."

 

Not in my opinion.

 

"... she recommended one of her show dog lines as they are bred more for temperment that herding..."

 

Do her herding dogs have bad temperaments? Is this to infer that dogs from herding lines don't have stable temperaments? I completely disagree.

 

And all the stuff about hip checks, elbows, eyes, and taking the pup back ... you can find that a lot nowadays. And for $1,000 ... this dog should come with a 14K gold collar, a silk bed stuffed with golden fleece, and a diamond inlay leash.

 

If breeding for temperament, why breed Border Collies? Why not Golden Retrievers?

 

Jodi

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Okay, I have to admit I'm seeing red over some of the stuff posted in this thread.

 

Jessica (Gottahavebc) what it looks like you have done is supported what I will diplomatically term a high volume breeder.

 

Someone writes to Jessica:

 

Stop defending yourself and that puppy!!! No one cares where your dog came from.
I care. I care because every puppy bought from one of these "high volume breeders" steals a home from a well-bred, well-thought out working litter.

 

Kerry writes:

 

Also Dublin is a show dog from champion parents - not that that means a hoot to me, but I told the breeder I didn't want a dog with a strong herding instinct as sheep aren't going to play a part in his life

 

...anyway, I really lucked out with my breeder...she breeds dogs for show as well as herding and she recommended one of her show dog lines as they are bred more for temperment that herding

 

...She is the ideal breeder you read about.

This is NOT an ideal breeder in my mind. Far from it. This is yet another a show breeder convincing someone their dogs "have it all" and this is how the real working border collie breeder is put out of business.

 

And - Gotta Have BC - I understand how you feel...I was a bit put off at first because I purchased a show dog (*gasp*) but honestly, a dog is a dog and they don't know or care what lines they come from - they just want to give love and be loved (which they definetely are!)
And that's a great attitude for your individual dog. Unfortunately, it's the attitude that has ruined countless scores of working breeds.

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Maybe I explained it wrong...temperment might now be the ideal term to use...Dublin's line is more mellow...(if you can call a border collie mellow) and he isn't obsessive about herding...as many 'problem' border collies that end up in rescue are...my breeder took the time to find out the kind of home/lifestyle Dublin would have and recommended an appropriate puppy for me...she was more concerned about the welfare of the pup than making the sale...I actually saw her turn down a sale because the people who were looking to buy a puppy had no clue what they were getting into (had seen one in a movie and thought they would be a cute dog to have, lived in an apt and both travelled often for work) so yes, I think she is a pretty darn good breeder because of it. And yes, many breeders will take back the pups, but there are many out there that are looking for a profit and don't care where the dogs are going. She isn't like that...

 

As for price, you need to take into consideration the different costs in different regions of the country...many things tend to be more expensive in the northeast...my brother has a Golden and he paid $850 for him and my other brother paid $600 for his coon hound 12 years ago...so I don't think judging on dollars is very fair.

 

I also think that pidgeon-holing BC isn't fair to the dogs or their owners...there are some great BC owners out there that don't herd or do frisbee, etc but that doesn't mean that they aren't good owners and their dogs still lead great lives. There are also some BC (even from working lines) that don't have a strong instinct for herding...in the past, these dogs were put down to prevent them from ruining the breed with their offspring...I don't think that is fair and I think that my home is perfect for this type of BC...it doesn't mean that my dog is any less than a working dog...he just has a different role to fulfil.

 

Be careful before you judge...

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Originally posted by C Denise Wall:>>> Denise, I e-mailed you privately to respond, as I don't want to continue to go back and forth on here with everyone. I appreciate everyones concern for the breed, and I am sure the info I get here will help me (and others) avoid mistakes in the future with BC ownership.

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Kerry wrote:

 

Maybe I explained it wrong...temperment might now be the ideal term to use...Dublin's line is more mellow...(if you can call a border collie mellow) and he isn't obsessive about herding...as many 'problem' border collies that end up in rescue are...
Who said this? This breeder? Border collies are in rescue from all kinds of backgrounds.

 

If you don't want a real border collie then why are you getting a border collie? Why not a golden or something that as a bred has the temperament you're looking for? Why must a perfectly useful breed be ruined so people can feel they have what *looks* like the real thing but isn't?

 

so yes, I think she is a pretty darn good breeder because of it. And yes, many breeders will take back the pups, but there are many out there that are looking for a profit and don't care where the dogs are going. She isn't like that...
That's admirable for sure but how is she helping improve this working breed? If she's breeding for pet temperament then why not pick one of the many other pet breeds? Why ruin one of the only true working breeds left?

 

I also think that pidgeon-holing BC isn't fair to the dogs or their owners...there are some great BC owners out there that don't herd or do frisbee, etc but that doesn't mean that they aren't good owners and their dogs still lead great lives. There are also some BC (even from working lines) that don't have a strong instinct for herding...in the past, these dogs were put down to prevent them from ruining the breed with their offspring...I don't think that is fair and I think that my home is perfect for this type of BC...it doesn't mean that my dog is any less than a working dog...he just has a different role to fulfil.

 

Be careful before you judge...

I think your home is perfect for this type of border collie as well. Which is why I'm wondering why you chose a dog that was bred to be what would have been considered a cull as you describe it, instead of buying from a good working breeder who was trying to breed the right way and accidentally produced a cull (non working temperament). Why are you supporting the breeding of culls on purpose?

 

Once again, we are not talking about owning dogs that don't work, we are talkng about BREEDING dogs that don't work.

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Kitch,

You are making a common mistake of assuming that the comments made about show breeders are attacks against you personally or against your dog. They are not. Time and again, folks here (let me clarify that to say the people who use these dogs for what they were bred to do -- herding) have stated that we don't care what you do or don't do with your individual dog. In other words, we are not making value judgements about you as a person or about your dog as an individual.

 

What we care about is who is breeding these dogs and why. Conformation breeding is the antithesis of breeding for excellent herding characteristics, and it is those herding characteristics that make border collies such popular dogs, even among folks who have no plans, EVER, to go anywhere near livestock. Buying from those breeders (that is, conformation breeders or puppy millers or backyard breeders) supports breeding practices that have NOTHING to do with maintaining or improving the herding characteristics of the breed. And I repeat, it's these same characteristics that appeal to most people who want a border collie. Therefore, if you support breeders who are breeding for something else, be it mellowness, looks, flyball speed, etc., you are encouraging more of that kind of breeding, and that kind of breeding did not produce the type of dog that appealed to most potential pet or sport owners in the first place.

 

Once a person has an individual dog, we really don't care what activities (or not) you plan to do with the dog. But we do care very deeply about how that dog came to be.

 

My first response to this thread, which I amended because I knew someone would probably take offense, stated that if a breeder is asking for much more than $500 for a well-bred pup, then I'd be willing to bet it was a conformation breeder. Prices that high have nothing to do with the part of the country you live in--they have everything to do with the conformation culture.

 

I'll repeat myself: once you have your dog, we (herding folk) aren't going to suggest you get rid of it, that you are a bad person, that you don't deserve a border collie, that your dog doesn't deserve you as an owner, or any of the other ideas new people routinely misconstrue here.

 

But neither will we sit back and pat you on the back and say you did the right thing by getting that dog (from a conformation, sport, pet, backyard or high-volume breeder). We understand that what's done is done in the case of folks who have already gotten their beloved dogs from sources that weren't the best choice.

 

We may be tilting at windmills, but we can always hope that other interested folks reading these threads will be educated by the discussion, and perhaps even those people who didn't make the best choice of breeder the first time around will reconsider their source for a pup if they decide to get another border collie in the future.

 

J.

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Jessica,

I will not say what I paid for my dog . But it was more then 200 but less then 500. I was happy with the breeder I visited my pup 3 times aweek till i took her home at 7.5 weeks. i saw all her dogs saw mom and dad on sheep. My pup is now 8 months old and the breeder is always en couraging . i can ask her any thing. i would take another pup from her.

Jessica I would bet on you to be one of the best Bc moms ever you will love your pup help it learn and grow together. i am sure you will not let your dog go lose and get in trouble.

Just remember we don't know everything Now get out and ejoy that pup of yours lol

bobh and the gang of 4

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Originally posted by Kitch:

There are also some BC (even from working lines) that don't have a strong instinct for herding...in the past, these dogs were put down to prevent them from ruining the breed with their offspring...I don't think that is fair and I think that my home is perfect for this type of BC...it doesn't mean that my dog is any less than a working dog...he just has a different role to fulfil.

Kitch,

I wanted to address this quote specifically. If you think it's wrong to euthanize culls (and I don't think it's a real common practice among working breeders), then why not provide a home for one instead of encouraging someone to breed what are essentially also culls (you encourage that sort of breeding by buying their product)? After all, you said you have a perfect home for just such a dog. And yet, that's not what you bought. Yes, there are dogs in carefully bred working litters who don't measure up. Most breeders do now cull by placing those dogs in sport or pet homes. But every conformation breeder out there who tells you that the only way to get a dog that is mellow or suitable for some activity other than herding is to purchase (for way more money) a conformation-bred dog is simply marketing to a gullible public and essentially taking away potential homes from responsible working breeders who are doing the right thing by the breed as a whole, but who also would like to find good non-breeding homes for the pups who don't measure up.

 

Jessica,

I know you are feeling under the gun, but as you've said, at least you are learning. You are young, and I hope that if there are more border collies in your future you will keep some of what the working folk have said in mind when the time comes to get another dog. In the meantime, enjoy the pup you have, but also try to educate others with what you have learned here.

 

J.

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