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echo44

hip dysplasia vs injury?

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Guest Wolverine

echo44, I am glad everything is okay. I was afraid to post my own thoughts, for fear of creating a false alarm. A couple of years ago, Missy displayed similar symptoms, but far more severe. In her case, the knee on her back leg was severely damaged; she had the canine equivalent of a complete tear of the ACL. Fortunately, we live fairly close to a surgeon that specializes in reconstructive surgery of such injuries in Massachusetts, and he was able to rebuild the knee to a point that it is better than the natural one. (Originally he told us when I dropped her off that he would not be able to do the surgery for several days. When I called the next morning to check on how she was doing, he had already done the surgery; he said Missy was such a sweetheart that he couldn't bear to see her suffer, so he operated the evening after I had driven her the 90 miles from the vet to his hospital, with what I will shamefully admit was a callous disregard for speed limits. Incidentally, for anyone in the area who might need such services, the hospital is the Boston Road Hospital in Springfield, MA.)

 

Again, I am glad to hear the good news that the injury to Lucy is not serious. She will still need time to mend, but it sounds as if everything will work out in the long run.

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Marvelous!

 

Rick says, take it easy now and it's worth the wait!

 

RickFly.jpg

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Thanks everyone for all your support!!!!!!!!

as a physician i practice and teach my residents to practice evidence based medicine. This means medicine which relies on scientific evidence not fokelore. example the resident may ask me why i use a particular suture. The wrong answer would be because thats the way i was taught. The right answer is because scientific studies have shown this suture material to be stronger and causes less of a tissue reaction than the other types of suture material. Its amazing how people question whether i should play fetch with my puppy or for that matter frisbee. There is no conclusive scientific evidence that these activities or any activities increase the likelihood of hip dysplasia. Of course, any physical activity at any age puts your dog at greater risk for any type of injury. in fact the older the dog the more likely the injury will have permanent sequela. In humans the growth plates don't close completely until 25 years of age. If we applied the principals as stated above we should eliminate all college sport not to mention highschool ect. On the flip side there are many student athletes who suffer devistating injuries with disabilities which can last a life time(Cervical neck fractures) So why is there such an explosive growth in children participating in these activities? Simple answer; the benifits to the many outway the harm to the few. I do believe as with any activity it can be over done. In fact i asked my orthopedic surgeon vet if i should stop playing frisbee with Lucy he said absolutely not! I will continue to let lucy be a puppy which in her eyes involves chasing other puppies and playing fetch ect. I will continue to be vigillent as i have always been including limit the time i allow her to participate in these activities as well as only allow her to play on grass or sand. The orthopod told me her hips were outstanding with no evidence of laxity or bone changes. I HIGHLY recommend this article which discusses what is known and what is not known about hip dyspalsia. The bottom line: Hip dyplasia is a geniticlly transmitted disease and even normal activity in a dog with the disease phenotype can lead to expression of the disease.

http://siriusdog.com/articles/article46.htm

so bottom line : I think since the answer is not clear its best to take it easy when they are young but this doesn't mean that they can't do activities such as running, fetch ect. in a low key manner exercising caution in the duration and the intensity of these activities until they are full grown

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hmmm... well you're posting about your 4 month old puppy who was injured when playing ball and you're lecturing US on safe puppy activities? We're not talking about "causing" CHD, but causing injuries, like the one your poor pup has already sustained. Jumping up to catch things mid-air is inviting injury in a young dog who has no concept yet of balance, proprioception, hind leg awareness, etc... There are many lifelong problems much worse than CHD that can be caused by injury, especially to growing joints. No your pup shouldn't live in a bubble, but it shouldn't be doing any jumping at this age either.

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Ya know Echo I'm sorry, but I think you have gone too far. You whine and complain and freak out about your pup crying and then go off on US when we are only trying to warn you.

 

Scientific based results my a$$.

 

Your dog sustained an injury caused by certain activities that we have all told you to watch in a 4 month old.

 

There is your scientific result.

 

While I'm glad your pup is OK...oh and by the way - it might STILL develop HD...x-rays at 4 months are not conclusive...I hope that your "idea" of raising your pup doesn't cause more pain in the long run for the little girl.

 

Denise

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I love dog sports and it is driving me crazy that I can't start training my puppy in flyball. I can do some low impact stuff like recalls but even with that I only do a couple things. We play fetch but not for long and only low throws so he doesn't have a chance to jump. I throw a frisbee but I purposely overthrow so he can't try and jump for it. I do allow him to jump normally like a puppy does but I try not to let him overdo. I don't want to possibly hurt growing joints.

 

I think everyone is saying don't overdo the jumping or repetitive motions on growing joints.

 

Kim

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Also, I have problems with some of the conclusions noted in the 'comprehensive' article you reference. And I find the article generally lacking in information as well.

 

Since CHD is diagnosed strictly by a radiologist's estimate of how much of the hip is in the socket (less than 50% is considered CHD), I find the "diagnosis" of CHD to be rather vague in an asymptomatic dog. I've had a vet tell me one of my dogs was dysplastic (based on only ~45% coverage) and I had to laugh in her face as this nine year old has never taken a lame step in her life (other than that caused by acute injury). There's a saying in vet. medicine that I find applies well to the over-diagnosis and mis-diagnosis of CHD...treat the dog, not the radiograph.

 

Also, the claim that medical mgmt. is not effective is simply not true. I have a dog who is clinically dysplastic (painful unless she's on supplement) and does great on supplements and exercise and I know many other sport dogs like this, who are all still competing. There's no need to cut these dogs, and they're not couch potatoes either. So while my advise may be anecdotal, it holds true with my limited sample size. But you and I both know that a study can be found that states pretty much any view on the subject, so I do tend to believe in dogs I see out there competing every day w/o pain, and not some random internet site.

 

-Laura

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Since you are a physician, you should realize that comparing humans to dogs in terms of physical activity is nonsensical. Your argument about benefits of sports versus liabilities in humans and applying it to dogs is, dare I be so strong, RIDICULOUS. Of course that is my opinion. I have a 13 year old dog that did agility and too much ball play as a youngster. While it was satisfying to see how great he was so early and smart and wonderful, I now regret the injuries that have been made worse by overuse early on in his life. Luckily he is not a high jumper for balls or frisbee, he would catch it, just waited for it to get to low level. As someone else said, asking us for advice, then contradicting us, defeats the purpose. We are given the responsibility to make good choices for those(human and animal) in our care. Please think about what you are doing.

Caroline

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I am not trying to whine or go too far

I am just trying to discuss the issues so we can all learn from each others experience. isn't that what these boards are about?

It seems if someone post an idea that is contradictory to someone elses opinion people go off on a rage. It is a fact that the extrinsic factors such as diet and exercise and their relationship to hip dysplasia are not known at this time. Common sense says to limit a puppies activity until they are fully developed. I am only saying nobody has demonstarted this makes a significant difference in the development of hip dyspalsia as far as from what i have read. Please don't take it personally. I would do anything to help my dog if i knew for sure i was helping her. anyway

I do significantly limit her activity. I think everyone who reads these boards is a "high end dog owner" or they wouldn't be here.

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no conclusive scientific evidence that these activities or any activities increase the likelihood of hip dysplasia
Then you've researched this?

 

If this was a board where human medicine was discussed, I'm sure most here would tip their hats to your knowledge.

 

However, this is a board where people share their knowledge of border collies---and dogs in general.

The combined years of dog experience here I feel merits sitting up and taking some notice with the idea perhaps that there is value in the experience of others and that you and, in this case, your dog can derive some benefit from this collective experience. People here have devoted their lives to almost every aspect of dog ownership that you can imagine.

 

You brought into your life a remarkable dog of a remarkable breed. Your first mistake though, was taking a pup way too young to be separated from her dam and littermates and the so called "breeder", unless the dam died (in which case I apologize), should be slapped upside the head for letting a pup go so young. Just wondering if this "breeder" provided conclusive and scientific evidence that separating the pups from the dam at 4 or 5 weeks as being acceptable with no long range problems.

 

So then you find yourself with a pup that should still be with her littermates. Whether you were aware of the consequences of taking on a pup that young, is now beside the point. Hopefully, that was a lesson learned for you----and you wouldn't have been the first BTW, to learn this lesson.

 

So as the pup grows, your learning as a dog owner continues. If you're going to demand "conclusive and scientific" proof for everything you do with this pup, well, as Jed Clampett used to your "Yore in a heapa trouble, son".

 

Please listen to the advice you've been given.

Give this pup a chance to grow up. You'll have her whole adult life to fulfill these expectations, unless you ruin her now.

 

Vicki

 

PSSST---guys---maybe it ain't a good time to bring up raw feeding---whaddya think.

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"Since you are a physician, you should realize that comparing humans to dogs in terms of physical activity is nonsensical. Your argument about benefits of sports versus liabilities in humans and applying it to dogs is, dare I be so strong, RIDICULOUS"

on the contrary dogs suffer many of the same injury types as humans. In addition as a physician i see many chronic debilitating injuries which occur in children and young adults secondary to strenous repetative sports activities!! A great example is sliped capital femoral epiphysis not only do dogs suffer from this entity the etiology and mechanism is the same as humans. I would even suggest the stresses and forces placed on the human hip are far greater and severe than in the canine world due to are upright posture. "ridiculous" most of my physician friends and myself are always amazed at the similarity of the pathophsiology between our two species. Such as acl tears torn cartalige lumbar disc protrusion ect. Do you wonder why most research in the medical world is done on dogs?(much to my disgust)

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sorry if i am defensive but its amazing the insults, hard to believe i am dealing with border colli owners? I got the pup at 5.5 weeks i had no idea at the time that this action could be detremental.

If i had known i wouldn't have .

Regardless i have one amazing dog who is very social loves people and dogs never growls or bites. Her puppy class teacher was awed not only by her demeaner but her ability to learn. She is the sweetest thing you can imagine. All she wants to do is please.

Yes i have researched hip dysplasia and since the subject is so controversial in the vet literature i asked questions here to see how people on this board felt. I asked only becaause i respect your opinions and was interested in other people's experience. Also the distress of seeing your baby limp is incredible and i needed a place to vent, among who i thought would be people who can relate.

I also wanted to share with people what i have learned from reading the literature, discussing this with an orthopedic vet and also comparing it to similar problems in humans not to insult anyone but just to add to the experience. Sorry if any of my information or ideas upsets you. I am only trying to discuss a topic. Now for the "raw diet"

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Guest Wolverine

echo44, you will note from my posts that I try not to be judgemental. So please take this in the spirit that it is offered.

 

Several people have made a point with which I agree wholeheartedly, although some could have been far more tactful and compassionate in expressing it. You may want to consider the possibility that you are asking your beloved dog to do more than its young body is ready for. Certainly, there are developmental activities that can satisfy the competitive desire, but with a low-impact approach. I know for a certainty that there are special "puppy" versions of agility training and flyball that avoid excessive strain on a young dog; you might want to consider these as alternatives until Lucy is at least one year old. Based on advice we have received from several people (including our vet), this is the approach we will use with Annie once she completes the second phase of her basic training. But then again, that is only my opinion...

 

In any case, let me state again that I am happy that the problem with Lucy looks like it will have a satisfactory outcome. All of us here love dogs, and no one wants to see our dogs, or anyone else's suffer. My prayers go with you and Lucy for a speedy and complete recovery (if praying is allowed on this board, that is...LOL).

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i will play it safe based on yours and other advice

i have got her a private teacher for agility who owns 3 border collies the teacher already told me her classes for puppies involve no jumping.

 

I just pray nothing i did has harmed my baby.

 

owning a border collie puppy is like owning a turbo porcsh and for the first 5000 milles your not supposed to go past 30mph

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I can't remember who it was that posted this so please excuse me for not giving you proper credit as a reference, but not too long ago it was posted that one good beginner agility activity you can do with/for puppies is place a ladder on its side on the ground and teach the pup to weave in and out in between the rungs. It simulates the weave poles but without anything hard slapping the puppy as he/she moves through it, and is a good way to teach them where their back end is and what it's doing.

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Disturbing update:

its 11:00 here in Chicago, when i brought Lucy in today she saw the partner of a world famous orthopedic surgeon. they told me the famous guy was to busy today. I had left him a phone message anyway. So it was the partner who saw Lucy took the xrays and said everything is ok. Well the world famous ortho guy just called me back. I explained everything and he said Lucy should have the xrays repeated under general anesthesia since the only way to really test for CHD it to distract the hips"pen hip exam" I don't know what to do. have any of you had this done to your dog? He told me timing is critical since she is still young enough to have a corrective procedure done with laser. what do you think?

I am stunned.

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Penn HIp is a patented procedure that I believe is not considered particularly accurate in the prediction of later development of degenerative joint disease in Border collies. It measures hip laxity, and nothing more. The very things that make Border collies the dogs they are *requires* a certain amount of laxity in the hip joints.

 

Take the greyhounds and similar breeds of persuit dogs. CHD is virtually unknown in these breeds. Their hips are tighter than the strings on a Scotsman's pocketbook. But they cannot change direction in mid-run.

 

Looser joints allow some of the force of acceleation and decelleration to be absorbed and distribued into the muscles. Without a certain degree of laxity in the hips, the force of the types of movements that a Border collie routinely makes must be absorbed by the spine, knees, or other joints, which leads to a whole different set or problems.

 

In short, I wouldn't worry about getting the Penn Hip done unless you saw the films and you thought they were odd in some way and you think that a measurement of laxity would provide some information that you don't already have. I don't think it would, based on what you have written here.

 

I don't mean to disrespect the world-famous ortho, but let's get serious. If there was something horrifically wrong with your dogs hips -- bad enough to warrant surgery on a still-growing puppy -- I suspect you would have seen it on the OFA-view film.

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Echo 44 --

 

I should also point out that I do not consider asymptomatic CHD an issue. Unless a dog is lame, in pain, or disabled, I couldn't care less how the hip joint is formed. If the films showed hip laxity, the question you've got to consider is whether the risks of possible development of degenerative joint disease at some point down the road are greater than the risks and pain of surgery. Dogs die on the operating table every day. Todhunter's article shows you the hips of a severely dysplastic dog that died of old age. I know nothing about that dog's quality of life, but that's the balancing act you need to perform.

 

Not all puppies with suspect hips become lame. In fact, if we accept the OFA's predicitons, 25 percent of the Border collie breed should be dysplastic. I don't know about you, but I sure don't see one lame Border collie for every three sound ones I see. More like one for every 100 or so.

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The reason the expert wants to do the extra views is because if they showed significant laxity he would consider laser pubic symphyysiodesis which is a procedure that can only be done in thef irst few months. In this procedure the growth palte at the pubic sympisis is fused so it closes early. This causes the angle the pelvis grows at to change resulting in better covering of femoral head by the acetabulum. The penn hip has beeen shown to have some correlation with the severity of osteoarthritic changes seen in the dog at older ages. I personally am going to wait and see how Lucy feels next week. If she is pain free i would rather take a more conservitive route. This expert was recommended to me by DR Dueland from the University of wisconsin who is now retired. Dr Deuland is an expert on hip dysplasia. who was recently referenced in The popular dog series magazine on border collies volume#27. The expert in Chicago is Dr Gendreau who specializes in hip prosthesis. Not to further the argument on exercise but his opinion is exercise is good at a young age . His feeling is hip dyspalsia is genetic and by frequent exercise the ligaments and muscles around the hip joint are strenghthend there by decreasing laxity and prolonging the secondary osteoarthritic changes just another opinion. My gut feeling as a human physician is exercise is good but to be safe it should be limited to low impact such as swimming, gentle running on soft surface by the dogs own will. I also think fetch on soft surfaces is safe. I agree too much exercise particularly high impact may be harmful to the hip joints the same as it is in humans. However, just as humans the mechanism of degenerative joint disease is still not clear it is probably a multifactorial process.

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PS

Bill i agree with you 100%. Also consider most border collies probably a population that is skewed to be less symptomatic never get hip xrays!. Therefore, the data from the OFA is probably biased toward symptomatic dogs. This argument can also be applied to early execise. The majority of border collie owners or for that matter any breed that is prone to hip dysplasia are probably not as vigilent owners as those who read this discussion group. I think (this is a guess) the majority of dog owners do not limit their puppies exercise in any way!

It easy to look back and say well dog x developed hip dyspalsia and also had excessive exercise as a pup! However, the majority of pups in housholds filled with active children are exercised in every way possible and don't develop hip dysplaia. What needs to be done is a prospective study in breeds who are prone to hip dysplasia varying the intenisity of exercise and following the pups into adult hood and determine what effect exercise if any has on the progression or non progression of hip dysplasia.

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Echo,

 

The distinction I'm drawing is between a radiographic finding of hip dysplasia and a functional one.

 

A couple of years ago, there was someone on this board who wrote in to find out if he could track down the breeder of his border collie, who had been diagnosed as dysplastic at age eight. He wanted to contact the breeder so that the breeding wouldn't be repeated.

 

This kind of hysteria about CHD is what concerns me. First of all, most purebred dogs have a life expectency of about eight years, so the fact that this border collie had lived to eight to develop symptoms of degenerative joint disease identified it as a fairly healthy dog. Second, if you think about it, an eight year old dog having osteoarthritis probably isn't all that remarkable, and thirdly, how likely is it that the parents of an eight year old dog are still being bred?

 

If I had an eight year old dog come up lame from arthritic joints, I would be disappointed, and I would do what I could to relieve the dog's pain and provide it with a good quality of life, but I don't think it would be cause for a four-alarm post to the internet to try to stave off the breeding of dogs like it in the future. As dog lives go, eight years without pain is a pretty good run.

 

At the other end, I'm starting to hear about more and more of these sorts of early intervention surgeries such as your expert has discussed with you. (It sounds as if he has not recommended it at this point for your dog, but has only suggested more testing to see whether he might want to recommend it.)

 

Of course I don't know -- indeed there's no way to know -- whether these procedures help individual dogs. But I suspect that at least a proportion of the dogs that undergo them would have healthy hips without the procedure.

 

An expert on CHD is not necessarily an expert on Border collies. Rory Todhunter has seen more Border collies in the study of CHD than most, perhaps than any. And as I read his work, it seems to me that he is firmly in the camp that while there is a genetic component to the disease (.25 to .48 heritability) there are lots of things that we don't understand about why it is expressed in some dogs and not in others.

 

In your last post, you implied twice that you think Border collies are prone to CHD, and I just want to clarify what you mean by "prone." I don't want people reading these boards to get the idea that Border collies have hips like German Shepherds, where functionality is a major problem in a large percentage of the breed. While there is CHD in the breed, I don't think even the most ardent members of the hip police would say that it's that sort of concern in our breed.

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