Fear biting-new rescued dog.

[KJ]

Hello

We just got our rescue Aussie home. He decided to get on the couch and when my husband tried to get his collar to pull him off the couch, since just saying, "OFF, NO" didn't work, he flashed his teeth and he bit him not breaking the skin. (again-he did before but we thought he was better) Then when he tried to get him by the collar again he writhed around tried again to try and bite.

 

We put him in his crate.

 

He's obviously been abused by a man and we knew this. Otherwise he's such a doll, real gentle, no aggressive behaviour at all.

 

What if we used a spray bottle instead of trying to touch/approach him when we need to correct him?

I haven't looked thru all the books yet...thought I'd get some of your views as well.

 

Bummer.

 

Thanks.

Kim

[urge to herd]

Hi, Kim,

 

Sorry to hear this, I know you weren't anticipating this sort of thing.

 

For now, have him drag a leash so that you can move him more safely. Many dogs are really touchy about their collars being grabbed, a leash will allow you to lead him somewhere much more safely.Keep him off the furniture, (crated or tethered,) until he's settled in a bit more.

 

I wouldn't use something like a spray bottle on a dog in this situation. If he's been abused, then any kind of forceful behavior on your part is only going to make him more afraid, hence more aggressive.

 

I hesitate to offer any suggestions over the internet beyond what I've already done. I will say that the collar sensitivity is one I've worked out w/a few dogs, and may not be that big a deal. It sounds like you could use a trainer's help. Please see if you can find one who does not meet aggression w/aggression. You could check the Association of Pet Dog Trainers for somebody in your area.

 

Good luck, and let us know how you get on with him.

 

Ruth

[KJ]

Thanks Ruth

It's so sad that he has this treatment. He's so scared.

 

The leash is a good idea. The trainer was in the plan anyway but now it's ASAP-so maybe once he knows the way we do things ie, not hitting, then it'll get better. Right now I'm thinking he needs to be crated when other male friends come to the house.

 

He just finally laid down on the rug for a minute. He's been pacing and pacing all day inbetween playing and playing.

[urge to herd]

Yeah! Glad to hear he's taking a breather. If he chews the leash off, (Shonie hates things dangling from her neck and just nips 'em right off,) get a light weight chain one.

 

You guys take a breather, too!

 

Ruth

[Sally]

I also wouldn't allow him on the furniture, not for a long while and even then only as a treat, we do Sunday morning romps on the bed but that's it. Have you had hassles when male friends have been over? I ask because of your comment about crating him when these friends come. The biggest thing is to be able to build confidence and trust so unless he's a real risk when men are around it won't teach him anything in the long run and he may also build a negative association with male visitors. Could you maybe try leashing and tethering him and asking that your visitors just ignore him for the time being? You want him to see that nothing bad is going to happen just because a man comes over. We also adopted a fearful dog, Tia, she has only shown very minor fear aggression early on so we are lucky. I'm still careful that visitors don't ever corner her and that they allow her to approach them first if she is fearful. Do you and your husband handle him equally or is one of you the primary handler?

Sally

[KJ]

Whew, I'm tired. Shep the new dog was up most of the night. He should be exhausted b/c he just paces cautiously non-stop. He doesn't know what to do with himself-the big new cushy dog bed is foreign.

 

Last nite he was utterly stunned when my 14 year old 20lb cat gave him a good pummeling. He didn't use claws tho which is fortunate.

 

Sally-----thanks

I was talking about the crating while male friends are over (for now) b/c he was abused by a man. Sometimes the slightest move causes it and other times he's fine. It's wierd to watch. you're right with him needing to experience normal men too. I know everyone is getting treats before they walk thru the door to shower him with- to do a little reinforcement.

 

This morning my husband, Pete, was supervising while the dogs went out and Pete was petting "Shep", everything was fine and suddenly Shep just cowered and jerked away, got low and stared at Pete like 'don't touch me.' So he didn't. I don't know how to handle that but pushing it, like trying to pet him anyway doesn't hurt b/c that's how Shep bit Pete almost breaking the skin about 2 months ago. (the day I got him from the neighbors)

 

Thanks a lot for the advice you guys.

Kim

[HKM's Mom]

Kim,

Have you considered having the dog eat every meal out of your husband's hands? It's a trust and bond building exercise I've used for fearful dogs. If he doesn't want to eat from your husbands hands then he misses the meal. It doesn't take long for him to accept this and eat.

If you do it, the dog doesn't get ANYTHING that isn't in your husband's palm. Hubby isn't to stare or watch the dog eat, he just sits there and offers handfuls of food for the dog to eat out of his hand until the meal is gone. It doesn't take long for the dog to improve.

The success is because the dog must decide to overcome is own past experience to get one of the most basic needs from a man. He is also learning who is the alpha of his pack (which dogs respect) because hubby is the only source of food. Alphas decide who eats what and when in the dog world. It's very successful if you don't mind slobber on your hands a couple times a day! LOL!!!

[anngreenthumb]

When we got our rescue 8 weeks ago, she had some issues like that. She paced and paced and she didn't sleep or poop for the first 3 days and nights. She also was collar nippy. she too had been abused but by boys with sticks. She improved after 2 weeks. Did better after 3 or 4, but it wasn't until last week that she quit trying to get away from us, but instead started to come to us. She is finally bonding and her bath time today was calm and sedate fore the first time. It has been a long long 8 weeks and a very successful one. keep at it. I bet you see improvement in 2 weeks like I did.

[Deanna in OR]

I think HKM's Mom has given you good advice, right on the money. It seems that your husband needs to make EVERY interaction with the new dog a positive one, even an exciting one. Instead of forcing the dog to do something like get off of the couch, he could lure the dog off with a special treat or toy and then praise for doing it. It sounds like abuse from a man is in the dog's past, so your husband needs to actively teach the dog that some men (husband at least!) are really AWESOME sources of goodies and fun, and at least for the time being, never the source of pain or fear.

 

And some things you just have to manage until they are trained (if ever)--if you want to keep the dog off of the couch, one way to manage it is to put a ScatMat on it (a grey plastic mat with thin wires in it, electrified--it gives a shock similar to a static shock from shuffling across carpet and touching a doorknob on a dry day). We used one for years with our old Collie who never did learn that the new furniture was off-limits, unlike the old furniture...unless it had that grey mat on it (plugged in or not). The ScatMat does its job without any negative associations with the humans in the house.

 

Deanna in OR

[anngreenthumb]

One more thing that works. We removed the collar and went to a harness for a while. She liked it better and you can grab a harness without getting nipped. It is a more gentle control.

[Glory and Kip's mom]

Hi Kim,

 

We have had a very similar situation with our Kip who is also a rescue. He has bitten my husband twice (although just barely) out of fear. He is mostly loving as can be. Now my husband loves Kip and is gentle with him, but Kip is ultra sensitive and comes from an abused/neglected background. We're still working it out. You should get your dog off the couch (something we didn't do right away) - good advice whoever said it and read "The Cautious Canine" by Patricia McConnell. It's very short book and can be gotten on dogwise.com. Keep a close eye on him. I know that in our family I'm the only one who can hug Kip close, or play with him or pick him up but I've seen him go to others for petting and then when they get too close he curls up a lip - even though he asked for attention. Good luck to you. The book offers great help.

 

Karin

[KJ]

Thanks for all the suggestions. My dad is coming over this weekend. He's a 6'4' 290lbs-big and just kind of 'manly'-dominate by nature. I guess I'll keep the leash on him when they meet and if he gets bitey I'll have to crate him.

 

Thanks again

Kim

[HKM's Mom]

If it were me, I'd remove the opportunity before it arises. Each time he goes for someone (nips, bites, lunges, etc) out of fear and the fearful object is removed it reinforces the behavior.

 

If he were in my house I'd crate him (before your Dad arrives) in a room with a frozen Kong (given to him by the hubby) and a drape over the crate. I'd turn on a radio in the room, turn off the light, and ignore him.

 

If you crate him prior to their arrival he doesn't associate the crating with strangers. You remove the chance that he will become afraid and nip. You also remove the chance that he will regress due to reinforcing his fear behavior.

 

It is hard not to show off a new family member,but it's really in the dogs best interest.

Just my two cents -

[urge to herd]

Absolutely have to agree w/HKM's Mom. You need to protect this guy from what he fears, (strange men, maybe even any strange people) while he's getting to know you and Hubby and settling in. Each exposure that is over his fear threshold, (which sounds pretty low right now) is only going to hinder his adjustment.

Most dogs take 2 - 4 weeks to settle in, reactive dogs such as Shep, (and my Shoshone) can take up to a few months.

Get Shep out of the way when you have visitors over. Read The Cautious Canine, join the shy k9 and/or AGBEH email list, (these have helped me ENORMOUSLY) and take it much, much slower w/your new guy. Slower is really faster!

I know it can be frustrating when what you want is a happy, easy going social dog. But, right now, Shep is not that way. You've got to start with him where he is, not where you want him to be.

 

Ruth n the Border Trio

[lrayburn]

Kim,

Lots of people have already given good advice about the fear-aggression and relationship building. I just wanted to suggest that you teach him to "touch". This exercise has two great benefits. First, he learns that hands are wonderful things and that, by touching your hand, he can get a great treat. Secondly, you can move him around using hand signals while you work on his confidence in having his body handled and touched and his collar grabbed. (Touch can be a more constructive way of teaching your dog where you want him to be because you are able to communicate that you want HIM to move somewhere else, you're not just forcing the physical behavior.) You may already know how to do this but I've outlined the process below in case you or someone else wants to know. This is from my puppy class handouts and has been adapted from Lana Mitchell's "Clicker Training - A thinking game for dogs".

 

Teaching "Touch":

1. Start with some great treats and in a small, quiet room or onleash.

2. Hold you hand open, palm facing the dog, an inch or two from his nose and wait. When you start, put a tiny dab or peanut butter or soft cheese on your palm.

3. Wait quietly for your dog to reach forward and bump his nose into your palm out of curiousity (or for the peanut butter at first).

4. The instant his nose touches your hand, give him an excited "yes" and feed a treat.

5. Repeat these steps 3-5 times with your hand in the exact same position. Sometimes your dog will touch several times and then stop. This is normal (he's testing the behavior), just wait quietly until he touches again on his own.

7. When he is more confident, hold a treat either in the crease between the base of your thumb and your palm or behind your open hand.

8. Now, begin to move your hand a couple inches to one side or the other, up or down. Practice on both the right and left hand. Practice trying to move him around your body and the house with your hands.

 

Now, when you want him the get off the couch, out of the doorway, into the car, etc. use his ability to touch to move him without causing a confrontation while you are working on building your relationship with him.

[Oreo's mom]

lrayburn,

 

Thanks for the steps to teaching "touch". Oreo isn't aggressive but this seems like a handy thing to teach him.

[HKM's Mom]

Irayburn,

That was a simply marvelous suggestion! Basic Obedience is about something other than "NO" and your idea is great for any dog in that situation.

Thanks for sharing it!

[KJ]

YOU ALL HAVE BEEN SO HELPFUL!!!!!

The touch lesson sounds great. I'll start that today. We've had no incidents since Tues.but we are having company this weekend which will be his first stranger in his new house experience.

 

Here's the plan:

Put Shep (Aussie) in his crate which is near the kitchen. I'll have folks give him treats and then we'll hang out for a while in the kitchen while he's crated to get him used the the new male sounds. Then I 'll take him out with his short leash on keeping hold of it and maybe the choke chain (?) and introduce him to the men who will have more treats. If he snaps/bites he goes back into his crate...because it's super-nerve racking and it'll give him a big time-out.

 

He did meet a neighbor who is a dog person. He was holding both his hands out and saying, "awwww he's beautiful" and Shep was barking like crazy and I'm running across the yard yellin' "George watch out! Don't pet him!!!" But he kept holding his hands out (he's an English Shepherd owner). Shep (one of the first Stooges by the way-BC is Curly) just barked, cowered and licked his hands, got pet a bit and then snapped. So...we've got a long way to go. The whole children thing too. My husband has 9 nieces/nephews but don't have to deal with that yet. How will I ever try to have him interact with children? There's a ton in our neighborhood.

 

thanks you guys.

have great weekend

Kim

[KJ]

Hi HKM's Mom and urge to herd-

I just reread your posts.

Perhaps I will just keep him crated contrary to my last post. (I'm not pschizo I do vascillate as any good Libra will) I think thats the safest thing to do but as Sally said:

 

"The biggest thing is to be able to build confidence and trust so unless he's a real risk when men are around it won't teach him anything in the long run and he may also build a negative association with male visitors. Could you maybe try leashing and tethering him and asking that your visitors just ignore him for the time being? You want him to see that nothing bad is going to happen just because a man comes over. "

 

At some point he has to meet strangers-but maybe tomorrow is too early.

 

Kim

[urge to herd]

Hi, Kim

 

Sounds like things are going pretty well for you. At this point, what you need to really focus on is becoming an astute observer of Shep. You need to learn what his threshold is, and be able to remove him from a situation that is getting to close to that threshold.

 

Yes, he does need to be exposed to things he is afraid of, but in such a way that he's not pushed over his threshold. If you have him on his leash and he gets stressed and snaps at a visitor and you put him away, what he learns is that snapping at visitors gets him out of a stressful (for him) situation.

 

Can you baby gate him in another room, where he can here and smell the activity? He might do better with that than a crate. That way, visitors, with instructions from you, can just casually stroll past and toss treats in the room without looking at him several times. He can also move away from the baby gate if he feels the need for distance. Have your hubby put him up w/a good stuffed kong. And you might think about not feeding him his full ration of breakfast that day, if he's a bit hungry, he'll be more apt to take treats. Don't not feed him, just a little under the normal amount.

 

It's great to hear from you - please keep us posted. And feel free to email me privately. A great book, (very short, a quick read) is The Cautious Canine by Patricia McDonnell. It would be very helpful w/Shep.

 

Ruth n the Border Trio

[Lucy Goosey]

I just have to pipe up that I don't think crating or tethering him where he can see when visitors come over is a very good idea. Dogs who are insecure about visitors can feel trapped, unable to escape, which can ramp up the fear level several notches.

 

I agree with baby gating him into another room and having visitors ignore him until he's calm, then allow them to toss some treats to him, or better yet, this one:

 

If he were in my house I'd crate him (before your Dad arrives) in a room with a frozen Kong (given to him by the hubby) and a drape over the crate. I'd turn on a radio in the room, turn off the light, and ignore him.

First you need to figure out what sets him off, whether it's the car pulling into the driveway, the knock on the door, the sight of the stranger entering the home, or the stranger making eye contact with him, etc., and start by eliminating that trigger. Over time, work on teaching him a new response to that trigger using systematic desensitization and classical conditioning.

 

As far as your husband petting him, it sounds like he can handle very brief touching, but extended petting is beyond his ability to cope with (I know another ACD who is like this; he's fine being touched a little, but too much and he will snap). For that reason, I would suggest that your husband keep any touching of Shep very brief. For example, touch, then give him a treat. Just brief touches followed by a food treat as a reward for calm acceptance.

 

Here are a couple of links that you might find helpful in figuring out where to start with Shep:

 

http://home.gci.net/~divs/behavior/bemod_relax.html

 

For your husband:

 

http://www.cnca.com/whats-new-relax.htm

 

I'll second the idea that you join the AGBEH list. Very helpful suggestions there. Here's a link to sign up:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agbeh/

[KJ]

Hey there

Thanks for all the input. Ended up that I let Shep out of the crate, kept him on a leash initially for the first meeting of everyone and he was golden! It's like I had made the whole thing up. He had no issues-------!!!!! He hung out all nite-totally social and affectionate.

 

But just when I thought we'd turned the corner, he snapped at a neighbor who put his hand out to pet him before we could warn him...so now the journey will be strangers outside and children... I'm wondering if a muzzle would be appropriate when we walk the neighborhood. He also put both paws on my cat but then again my cat (20lbs) was pummeling his face. If we all get thru this, first of all you guys are to thank (and even if we don't) and then the gods.

 

Curly the BC is cool. He really is taking everything so well. He gets annoyed -the look in his eyes at times says, 'I'm tired of my neck being chewed on and slobbered upon'. Are you BCs really expressive? I know one day he'll just start talking.

 

Hi Lucy Goosey- I went and looked at the sites you recommended. They were great.

I tried to join the agbeh group on yahoo and upon waiting for 'acceptance' I was sent this email which I had to laugh at...her attitude was really bizarre- check out a few snippets:

 

"It's not my fault that you 'rescued an Aussie with fear-biting issues.' What did you have in mind? Are you an experienced dog trainer?"

"Anyway, the Agbeh group is for people who have an interest in canine behavior and training. It is not designed to be a "help" group for people who need far greater assistance than can be provided over the internet for free. "

 

and so it goes.

 

Kim

[Lucy Goosey]

Wow, that *is* bizarre. I'm really sorry, I had no idea you'd get a response like that.

[HKM's Mom]

Kim,

I'm curious why you brought the dog out to meet so many strangers when you say he has bit your husband about six times in...what...eight days? What if it hadn't gone well, or what if it doesn't go well the next time? Ever see what a dog can do to a person's face or hand?

 

I am also curious what happened with the neighbor after the dog bit him? Did the neighbor leave the dog alone? If so, do you see how the dog interprets that interaction?

 

I'm not trying to beat you up, but a fear biting dog is A LOT of responsibility and if you aren't on top of it someone can get seriously hurt. Have you contacted a local Aussie rescue to ask for help with this guy? It's concerning that you are already talking about him meeting strangers and kids outside. The fact that you asked about a muzzle is even more concerning. Please do yourself and the dog a favor and get help from a local person experienced in Aussie rescue.

[KJ]

HKM's mom-to answer your questions-

 

Actually I took your earlier suggestion and had him crated with a kong before the guests arrived. Their arrivals were staggered. Over the course of about 2 hours each guest gave him treats thru the crate, he licked their hands (as HKMS mom suggested too) and we all hung out by the crate and talked-no fawning over him, slightly ignoring him, we went into the kitchen and talked etc.

 

{I chose to crate him b/c a) we don't have a baby gate and he really likes his 'house.' That's his space with his bed.}

 

Inside his crate, he was wagging his tail, crying to be let out and pushing his body up against the sides to be pet. This is were I took Ruths advice. I watched the whole thing very closely. My husband and I made the decision to put him on his lead and let him out to meet everyone. When I saw that he seemed fine, not scared or cautious in the least we took him off lead. Meanwhile we all were in the backyard and the 2 dogs ran around and we sat at the picnic table. He then approached everyone very gently, tail wagging and we all went about our business. I was standing near watching his every move at all times.

 

I realize a fear biting dog is ALOT of responsiblilty. That's why I am on this board asking advice, going to all sorts of websites, reading books... I am doing all I can do and because I am not a total idiot, I made some judgment calls. I wasn't born with this 6th sense of dog knowledge like some. I am learning.

 

The day went wonderfully and I am not assuming it'll always go like that. He will always be crated when others are here and then depending on how he acts and the company, I will take it from there. I think part of his problem is that he needs socialization-he lived in a pen outside and had some abuse. Just from being at that shelter for 1 1/2 months turned him around a great deal. There are lots of voluteers and he learned all those strangers were good.

 

As far as nipping the neighbor-he stuck out his hand to pet him even while Shep was barking at him. The neighbor just took his hand away.

 

I contactecd Aussie Rescue at the beginning of April and they said they can't do anything with a dog with a bite history-they couldn't help me.

 

He needs a behaviourlist.

 

As far as meeting kids-it won't be happening for some time until I've had some help. I'm not that ignorant.

 

I appreciate the effort(s) and advice.

 

Kim