Gibber Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Hello All: I am brand new here and have something I need to ask. My pup had her first heat cycle in August of 2003. She was 10 months old. When will she come into heat again? I thought the typical was 6-8 months, but it's already been 8 months and no signs yet. Any help greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 All dogs are individuals, and no one ever told the dogs that they had to stick to a 6-8 month heat schedule. Many variables can affect heat cycle, one being the fitness of your dog. My 2.5 year old had been coming in every six months and then this last time she came in at 8 months, after another bitch I have came into heat. I don't think I'd wrry if I were you, unless there's something else going on with her that concerns you. If you are worried about her health, you can always consult your vet. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlantis mom Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Our BC is about 8 months old and she hasn't gone into her first heat yet that we can tell. We too are wondering if this is normal, if her first heat was so mild that we never noticed anything (and we were watching for it) or if she is just a late bloomer. Anyone have any tips on "signs" that they are for sure in heat? And if she is late, will that be a consistant for her cycle? Vet says she's healthy and normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INU Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Why wait till the next cycle? If you aren't breeder, I would spay her now. It would be safer to do it earlier, wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimahall Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Either spay her or keep all males away. That is how you get litters sired by a brother, father etc. I have had times that the heat cycle was not noticed. Then we noticed the dog getting "fat". Also beware of those traveling salesmen. We had one picked up yesterday just outside my fence. Now that he is in the system he will either be neutered or put down. But since the salesman is a mixed breed mutt it will most likely be put down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 I have one bitch, now 8 yrs. old and spayed, who did not have her first season until 22 months of age. After that, it was every 7 months like clockwork. It really is an individual thing and a pain in the neck to live with. Second on the spay. Vicki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeH Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 No worries. Each bitch is different. My Golden was 15 months old before her first heat. Since then, they run about 10-12 months apart. I don't complain....she's a heavy bleeder, so it's nice to not have to deal with it every 6 months. The only time I griped was when she missed on her first breeding and I knew I had a long wait for her next heat (but she was kind...that was the shortest gap between heats she's had so far). But if you're not breeding, SPAY HER!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby-at-home Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 I was worried ithat I had missed Sophies heat as well, and then a Portugese Water dog bitch in heat visited for a little bit, and two days later Sophie started up...I think I've heard about that before, that bitches can have that effect on each other... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 This is the bane of the existance of many a musher... one of your bitches goes in, they ALL go in. Not that much fun during the racing season in general, even worse while in the middle of a 10 day race.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 That's funny about the sled dogs. Working kennels that favor bitches have the same problem many times. Seems to always happen around the US Finals, too. My young bitch was almost exactly 18 mos. If she weren't destined to work and compete I would have spayed her long before that. The jury is still out on her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 Years ago I heard of a study done of women in dorms-----tend to cycle together. Subsequently, I'd always heard that if you want to bring a bitch in, bring in a bitch that's in season already. Vicki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeH Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 Yeah, it's true. Women living in close quarters will cycle together, as will bitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibber Posted April 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 Thanks to all for your replies to my concern. Actually I do plan on breeding her. Just anxiously awaiting for the opportunity. Thanks again..what a terrific board! Matt Gibson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 Okay I will bite. What kind of work does your dog do? Has she been evaluated for genetic disease that can run in some lines of Border Collies? Just curious, sometimes people chat on this board and are very well informed about breeding and their reasons and others aren't. We won't know without asking you, *smile* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sally Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 Gibber, my 16 month old bitch had her first heat at about 12 months. According to her breeder we won't have an idea of her cycle until her third heat (which hopefully she will never have the need to reach), she comes from a line that is notorious for 8 to 10 month cycles but I have to agree with the majority of the board here, if she gets around another bitch in heat she may come on, this happened with my dearly departed Tassy. You'll probably get no notice beforehand but I know with Tass she used to get extremely dominant toward other bitches before she came in, no aggression but would just try to stand on them whenever a male dog was around and would then 'court' the male dog. Her pee also got stronger, more 'dead' circles of grass and bigger circles, like there was more acid or something. My bitch, Tia, will have one litter before being spayed (yes she will be HD certified etc) and then she will be spayed, this was the condition of me taking her from the breeder (she is my Tassy's grandaughter). That said I warn you, my Tass died at 13 because she was riddled with cancer, she couldn't breath in the end, now that's a good innings BUT she was in poor health for quite some time because she was used as a breeding bitch and was damn good at it. Her breeder and I are good mates but will always be at odds over this, she should have been spayed at the end of her breeding days, say 7, I'm not exactly sure when she had her last litter. I'm sure she had pyometra and cancer in her mammaries and this could have been largely prevented by spaying her after the last litter (I couldn't risk any surgery as she had breathing problems by the time I got her). My point is don't be a greedy guts, if you want to breed responsibly then go on ahead but don't let your bitch pop out litter after litter and then go unspayed for the rest of her days. Good luck. Sally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibber Posted April 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 Sally and Caroline: I completely understand the point you all are making. My intent is to breed my bitch just twice and then have her spayed. I have cattle and Lady has begun to work with me, albeit very little. Now, my breeding intent has numerous reasons. First, I want my children to experience a litter. To you, probably not the best reason and I understand why. But, I'm talking two litters tops. There are a HUGE number of cattle farmers where I live and they all love my dog and have expressed interest in a pup if I ever breed. This bitch is incredibly smart and has tremendous instincts. These farmers all need a working dogs and Lady has what it takes. So, yes, I will raise two litters of pups, sell them and then make a deposit into my kids college funds. At that point I will have her spayed. I have two other dogs that I spayed early and had no intent of breeding...please understand that I realize the necessity of spaying a dog. There is a great working stud dog literally two miles down the road from me, with a great pedigree, and the owner has agreed to breed my bitch because of her great working potential. I hope I have answered any and all concerns...maybe not to everyone's liking...but I hope they are answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillTerry Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 Gibber, I hate to throw cold water on your idea of putting money into your children's college fund from your litters but you may well be living in a dream world. 1. There is a HUGE difference between farmers "showing interest" and a definite "Yes, I want a pup and I will pay X amount. Farmers are notorious for NEVER wanting to pay any money for a pup. I am also curious why they would "love" a dog that has not proven her ability. Apparently, they have not owned working dogs before. 2. There are many great stud dogs and bitches in Virginia. The people that will pay money for the pups will not purchase a pup from a bitch that is not a proven worker....just showing potential will not influence them at all. There are too many great dogs in Virginia. Although the stud has a great pedigree, there are dogs with great pedigrees that can't work and they are a dime a dozen. What are the previous litters of the stud like. Are there any dogs trialing or at least working on farms? 3. Any responsible buyer who has any knowledge of the border collie breed will also want to know if the damn and stud of the pups have had their eyes and hips certified. That will cost you a minimum of $200 per dog. Additionally, since you will be a responsible breeder, the puppies will need to have their eyes checked which will cost about $25 per head before they are sold. Don't forget the cost of puppy food, vaccines, etc. Generally and hopefully, your bitch would have no birthing problems however if she has trouble, you are talking at least $200 in vet bills. 5. Since you want your children to see the wonder of birth, to be fair, they should also see the horror of dog pounds and euthanasia. Or just take them around and show them what happens to pups that are just sold to anyone. It is not a pretty picture. I know this post probably sounds harsh to you but it is the real world. I am not a hard person, just the opposite. Just worried about more the lives that the pups will have. Just giving you some food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillTerry Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 Gibber, I hate to throw cold water on your idea of putting money into your children's college fund from your litters but you may well be living in a dream world. 1. There is a HUGE difference between farmers "showing interest" and a definite "Yes, I want a pup and I will pay X amount. Farmers are notorious for NEVER wanting to pay any money for a pup. I am also curious why they would "love" a dog that has not proven her ability. Apparently, they have not owned working dogs before. 2. There are many great stud dogs and bitches in Virginia. The people that will pay money for the pups will not purchase a pup from a bitch that is not a proven worker....just showing potential will not influence them at all. There are too many great dogs in Virginia. Although the stud has a great pedigree, there are dogs with great pedigrees that can't work and they are a dime a dozen. What are the previous litters of the stud like. Are there any dogs trialing or at least working on farms? 3. Any responsible buyer who has any knowledge of the border collie breed will also want to know if the damn and stud of the pups have had their eyes and hips certified. That will cost you a minimum of $200 per dog. Additionally, since you will be a responsible breeder, the puppies will need to have their eyes checked which will cost about $25 per head before they are sold. Don't forget the cost of puppy food, vaccines, etc. Generally and hopefully, your bitch would have no birthing problems however if she has trouble, you are talking at least $200 in vet bills. 5. Since you want your children to see the wonder of birth, to be fair, they should also see the horror of dog pounds and euthanasia. Or just take them around and show them what happens to pups that are just sold to anyone. It is not a pretty picture. I know this post probably sounds harsh to you but it is the real world. I am not a hard person, just the opposite. Just worried about more the lives that the pups will have. Just giving you some food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 Thank you StillTerry for that well thought out post. I was hoping someone more eloquent than I would discuss these issues. Yesterday my dog club took part in a 4-H demonstration of dog agility. I am posting about that as a separate topic. Briefly, a local "farmer" with a "reserve grand champion" cattle working border collie has let him run free and he was finally shot by another farmer. He has fathered many litters. Many of the pups end up in rescue. I have seen these pups and one was at the demo watching. I talked to the young boy with the pup and he said she works scottish highland cattle on their farm. The kids see this pattern of animal treatment and just think this is right. Thank you for posting what is so true, Caroline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeH Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 Just had to chime in here... If you think you will make money...think again. Just as an example... My Golden had her first litter last November. How much did this cost? Before the pups were even born, we had already incurred over $700 in vet fees. Extra feeding for her ran another $300. This was $1000 before she even WHELPED. Post-whelping, we had another $300 in vet fees, $700 stud fee, and an average of $150 per week to feed Daisy and her pups. Now we were LUCKY!! Why? Because Daisy whelped a perfectly healthy litter, and a HUGE litter to boot (14 pups...yes, we broke records). That does NOT normally happen. After all the pups were gone to their forever homes, I sat down with receipts and figured it all out. The whole adventure cost us about $4000 out of pocket. From the sale of pups, we made about $7000. That's $3000 profit. Sound like alot? It sure does! But we had 14 puppies. First of all, you won't have 14 pups...I assure you. Second, 14 pups was an unbelievable chore. I literally had to quit my p/t day job just to care for them. So if you figure in lost wages, and the sheer STRESS of 14 pups, I didn't make a damn penny. Sure, 14 pups cost alot more. But that's my point... the numbers are relative. Our out of pocket money spent wouldn't have been much less...just minus the extra food. Even if we had a "normal" litter of about 6-8 pups, our vet bills would have been the same, as would the stud fee. So if we had a "normal" litter, we probably would have LOST money in the whole thing. And let me repeat... this was a PERFECT litter! No abnormalities, no whelping problems, etc. You can't count on that!! In fact, it is highly unlikely. Even my vet, who has been a vet for 40 years was astounded at how well everything went. If you plan on doing it the "right" way, don't count on making a single penny...and count on losing money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coloradogirl Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 I have a pup from the county nurse wanting her children to "experience" a litter. The pups were delivered cesarian $300.00 all were males, she had females sold for $50.00 each before the pups were even here. She was on her way to take little Angus to have him put to sleep because he was so shy, I took him. She gave all of those pups away and did not even sell one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zipper Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 First of all if you want your children to see the miracle of birth! Get TLC, the learning channel, on sunday nights Babies:special deliveries comes on, and they can see the miracle of birth, true people birth. How could you even think of breeding to show your children about life. Im just a one bc owner, not like most others on this board, but i am appalled that you would even think about those reasons for breeding, i do have children, and i think that them seeing it on tv, is enough. If you want them to see animal birth, watch animal planet, Thats my baby shows the whole process, and i think you should watch it to, it shows a lot of things that can go wrong, and that you have to have money to breed, and probably wont make anything to boot. My pup is 6and a half months old, she is very intelligent, and has a lot of instinct, hmmm should i breed her, she has never even seen a sheep. No i shouldnt that is why i am having her spayed this week. ughhhhhhhhhhhh :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibber Posted April 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 You people are insane. I have bred horses all my life and have done so with great success. My kids have experienced that process...but it's very difficult to cuddle a colt. You all act like I am trying to take some of your customers. The comment I made about the college fund was sarcasm...with the cost of college and all, I thought it was obvious I was kidding. Lastly, I would NEVER question someone else's real world teaching technique. My kids have experienced death more than once (horses, calves, deer etc) and they are well prepared and very knowledgeable about the fact that nature can be cruel and unfair at times. Thanks to you all for your concern....and don't worry, I won't ruin the entire BC industry with my two litters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeH Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Not insane... just concerned. I certainly didn't mean to come across as attacking you, I just wanted to let you know how much it costs. I missed the sarcasm of the comment about college fund and thought you were serious. If you do decide to breed her, I can recommend a wonderful board full of people who are very good at this stuff. They saved my sanity a few times when I was awaiting our first litter. But they too will ask lots of questions about her clearances, just a heads-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Look Gibber, We are not insane. Have you any idea how many people post here about breeding their dog? And ask questions that indicate they haven't done any prior research into breeding? Sarcasm is often missed via computer chatting. Many of us have seen lots of rescue dogs and hate to see more created. I encourage you to have spay neuter contracts on your puppies. While their are unwanted horses, since they are more expensive it is more common to find unwanted smaller animals. I think going to the local shelter is Real World teaching. Certify eyes and hips, do spay neuter contracts with buyers, have signed contracts for puppies before the breeding, all great ideas. Caroline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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