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libby-at-home

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Did any one else get a chance to watch the AKC agility show tonight? There sure was a difference in how these dogs looked compared to the Westminster dogs last week... Wow were the winners ever FAST!!! I really liked the little tiny one 18" who competed in that group..she was the same height as a sheltie.Very cute and sweet, just like my Sophie!

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I watched with a set of mixed emotions. It was great to see the speed, grace and intelligence of not only the BC's, but all the competitors. (Did you see that cute little poodle in the 8" class)

That being said, I can almost forsee the rise of rescue and shelter BC's being turned in as people go out and get a BC cause they want one like they saw on TV and not realize what it takes to get any dog to that performance level, let alone the sometimes nightmares of raising a BC from a puppy.

 

Further, I thought I heard one of the comentators talking about what great companions BC's are. Just read the titles of some of the topics and you can see what an illusion that can be if you have children, other dogs, cats, shadows, etc..

 

The worse part was seeing as it was an AKC sponsored event, I believe all the dogs had to be AKC registered. That means all those wonderful mixes and non papered dogs at the shelters and rescues that could be wonderful companions, agility performers and wanting to be loved pups don't stand a chance of competing, thus not being desireable for the people that think the dog world revolves around the AKC. And of course the best dogs are AKC dogs......

 

I would have prefered seeing a USDAA event where the only qualification is ability and not even great ability at that.

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---"The worse part was seeing as it was an AKC sponsored event, I believe all the dogs had to be AKC registered. That means all those wonderful mixes and non papered dogs at the shelters and rescues that could be wonderful companions, agility performers and wanting to be loved pups don't stand a chance of competing, ..."---

 

Some of those dogs ARE rescues. The AKC has an ILP program thru which many of dogs of unknown ancestry can be registered for any performance event as long as they resemble any one breed that is being registered with them.

 

They are not elegible for conformation and they have to be neutered.

 

Just thought that you may want to know so you don't disseminate any more misperceptions about the AKC, a registry that does plenty wrong, just not that. :rolleyes:

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Sorry..... I stand partially corrected.

 

Yes, dogs that appear (to the AKC) to be purebreeds can register through ILP. But if I read their website correctly, they must resemble a registered breed by way of 2 photographs.

 

Your average Heinz 57 of any ability won't qualify on ILP, thus not be allowed to compete and that is more to the point to which I was refering.

 

Also during the program, while I heard one competitor talking about her rescue dog (which was a BC and would have been great timing for the AKC to talk about its ILP program) I never heard the announcers allude to anything that would have made the audience believe anything other than that all the animals were AKC registered, thus purebreeds. (Can you imagine the shock if it were known that a "bastard" dog was a televised AKC sanctioned event champion. Geez why pay hundreds to an AKC breeder when I could go get a purebreed looking rescue and stand just as good a chance by going through ILP.)

 

Anyway my basic point was that the show did nothing to save helpless good animals in a local rescue, shelter or death row which may be as good as or better than those that were shown. That is where the mixed emotions came in

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Of course mixed breeds cannot be ILPed -- the ILP is only for purebred dogs -- but in addition I am contacted relatively frequently (even nowadays, when my influence with the AKC is, ahem, not very great) by people seeking help because their border collie (unpapered but known to be purebred) was rejected for an ILP by the AKC. The basis for the rejection is always that the dog does not look enough like a border collie. These people always forward me the photos, and in every case there is nothing about the dog that suggests it's not a border collie. Nearly always I can name at least one known, registered working border collie who looks the same as the dog in the photos. That counts for nothing, though. Appearance is everything. If it doesn't look like their idea of a border collie, it's not a border collie. No ILP.

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A person I know from agility just recently ILP'ed her OBVIOUS mixed breed to compete in AKC agility. So it really depends on who's looking at the pictures.

 

About people getting BC's just to do agility, sorry but that already happens quite frequently.

 

BTW, that AKC course was a joke, definitely not a national-caliber course. My novice students could've run that easily. And did you see the "purebreds are better" commercial....GAG!!

 

-LS

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A few comments/observations and one question:

 

One reason you won't see USDAA (or NADAC) Nationals or Championships on TV is that those organizations won't "sell out" to, or agree to be sponsored and managed by, the media - though USDAA has, in the past. Animal Planet or whoever is filming just has too much "say" in what goes on (did you notice the one Sheltie that stopped - I think at the bottom of the dogwalk - to look at the little 'cigar camera' they had planted in the floor?). It all boils down to commercialism - which AKC is involved in. Not to say that's awful - its their choice.

 

But the original post was correct - these are purebred dogs, and much as AKC is maligned here (for good reason regardig border collies), that is their mission - to promote purebred dogs. So - they should not be maligned for that alone. Many other reasons - yes! (Like the obese Lab referred to elsewhere...) I agree that mention of the ILP program would have been good -but I would have been surprise to even hear the commentator mention it.

 

Gary said: "I would have prefered seeing a USDAA event where the only qualification is ability and not even great ability at that." I'm wondering what you mean by "not even great ability" - you seem to imply that qualification does NOT require great ability? Explain, please!

(BTW, I think the USDAA finals, run outdoors in the rain and mud, may be available on video later on - though with the weather, perhaps it was not filmed!)

 

Yes, some of the finals dogs are rescues. And many of them are not. Suffice to say that border collies - purebred or not, registered, ILPed or not - are and will continue to be the winners in their height category. People will continue to breed for speed (or long legs or short legs or light coats or whatever) if they're "seriously" into agility. And people will continue to seek out "good" dogs for this purpose. Like it or not!

 

And if the general public decides they want one, hopefully they'll find good information here - before and after getting one. Witness the numerous requests for "breeders in my area" and the replies suggesting rescues and/or other breeds. And hopefully if they end up with a border collie, they'll at least try herding, or agility, or whatever works for them.

 

ILPed and mixed breed dogs also can excel at agility! My own rescue (originally ABCA registered) has done incredibly well with an incredibly inept handler.

 

I do agree that some ILPs seem questionable, from my limited knowledge of breed point of view.

 

And BTW, the 16" dog Suni is actually an Australian Shepherd (no, not a mini either!).

 

And rtphokie - I haven't set up that course, but have seen some of the dogs and handlers that ran it in person. It WAS a championship-level course by anyone's definition! Witness the numerous wide turns or spins, off-courses, etc. (OK, missed contacts don't count - it only likely means that the handlers were pushing for time, in an event where time is critical!) Your novice students might have run it - but I'll wager in double the winners' time! No argument, though, about the AKC commercial - but see above.

 

I did enjoy watching it - with all disclaimers about AKC included.

 

And do read the other post subject "Honest Question." Says it all.

 

diane

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Sorry Diane, can't agree, I've run much tougher courses at my local USDAA trials in the Masters ring. I do agree people like Elicia & Stacy and the other top names there have fast dogs, but I don't agree it was a hard course. The turns weren't wide because the course was hard, but because the handlers didn't handle them more tightly.

 

JMO,

Laura

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When our club members, that some have MACH's on their dogs and qualify for the AKC finals, go to any other than AKC shows, USDAA too, they come back saying it was easier and bring home the blues to prove it.

 

Some of those people you saw in the AKC finals are in the international team and do very well in the really tougher/higher european courses.

 

It always looks easier when sitting down and watching it than running the course.

Same with herding trials. :rolleyes:

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Same with herding trials. [Wink]
I think this may be the first time I've ever heard anyone imply that AKC "herding" is harder than other flavors. I've set up courses here for friends who come to practice (in my two acre holding paddock) and can run them with ease. And I suck as a handler.

 

Surely I'm misunderstanding this? I just want to make sure that people "out there" don't get the impression that AKC "herding" is a valid test of a Border Collie's working ability.

 

By the way, am I correct in understanding that ILPed Border Collies cannot participate in the "World" competition, due to international registration policies? I've been told this as a reason serious AKC agility people don't want rescues or ILPed working-bred dogs.

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I don't know anything about "AKC herding" but I can imagine what it is like. :rolleyes:

 

Have never heard that any one dog is not permitted to participate in international events, if they qualify, regardless of their breed or paper status.

 

I don't know who determines what dogs can make the US team, how they are qualifying.

 

Good question. Will ask around.

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Diane,

 

Gary said: "I would have prefered seeing a USDAA event where the only qualification is ability and not even great ability at that." I'm wondering what you mean by "not even great ability" - you seem to imply that qualification does NOT require great ability? Explain, please!

 

What I meant was that the only qualification for a dog / handler to be a USDAA or NADAC member is that the dog is a dog, is over 18 months and is not aggresive to other dogs. As far as ability, I could take any of my dogs and train and compete in these group's events. We may never make it out of novice, but we can still go and have fun. Groups based on inclusion, not exclusion.

It was in no way meant to impune the standards of the USDAA / NADAC or teams that have earned titles or awards based on their performance.

 

Sorry that I was unclear about that.

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---"What I meant was that the only qualification for a dog / handler to be a USDAA or NADAC member is that the dog is a dog, is over 18 months and is not aggresive to other dogs. As far as ability, I could take any of my dogs and train and compete in these group's events. We may never make it out of novice, but we can still go and have fun. Groups based on inclusion, not exclusion."---

 

That paragraph lacks logic when you mean to say that the AKC agility shows are not fun and you can't show forever at the lower levels if you don't qualify for the upper ones and that because they are AKC people don't have fun.

 

The only requirement of AKC is that a dog be properly registered with them.

They are first a registry, after all and that is how we have breeds today, not your "generic brown dog" all dogs would revert to if breeds had not been established.

 

Even under those parameters, the AKC has opened performance events to many mixed, spayed dogs if they only resemble any one breed and may consider admitting for those shows, some day, any dog.

There is talk of it now.

 

The Canine Good Citizen program is open to all dogs now.

 

Yes, even the AKC is changing with the times.

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They are first a registry, after all and that is how we have breeds today, not your "generic brown dog" all dogs would revert to if breeds had not been established. >>

 

The American Border Collie Association (ABCA) is first a registry, yet it sponsors the National Sheepdog Finals where any dog, regardless of breed or lack thereof, who has proved itself qualified can compete.

 

>

 

That is simply not true. Try applying for an ILP saying that your dog is mixed but resembles a border collie and see how far you get. This is what the AKC says about the ILP program:

 

"If you have a purebred dog that cannot be registered with the AKC and have a desire to see what your dog can do in real competition, an ILP number is your ticket to the world of AKC events and clubs!

 

Indefinite Listing Privilege Program (ILP): The program that provides purebred dogs a second chance.

There are various reasons why a purebred dog might not be eligible for registration. . . . The ILP program allows the dog and owner a second chance at discovering the rewards of participating in AKC events." Emphasis added.

 

If what you mean to say is that the AKC has on occasion been fooled into giving ILPs to some mixed breeds, well, they have also been fooled into REGISTERING some mixes as a result of misrepresentation by their breeders. That doesn't make it accurate to say that the AKC registers mixed breed dogs.

 

>

 

If what you're saying here is that the AKC will someday consider allowing ILPed dogs in conformation events, I would love to know what your basis is for saying that, or what you're smoking.

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The only requirement of AKC is that a dog be properly registered with them.

They are first a registry, after all and that is how we have breeds today, not your "generic brown dog" all dogs would revert to if breeds had not been established.

Almost every major breed evolved because they performed and were bred for some function, not because they opened up a studbook with a conformation registry (until very recently, that is). The beef I have with the AKC is that they claim to be the steward of the purebred dog in the US, but they continue to be adamantly opposed to the notion of a functional/performance standard of any kind.

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Becca, in answer to your question, ILP dogs are not considered eligible by FCI rules:

 

Dogs must have a three generation pedigree showing three generations of purebred lineage.

(This is a requirement of the World Agility Championships, not the AKC.)

 

The FCI requires that every dog has an AKC registration number and acceptable FCI recognized

pedigree. Examples: AKC 3-generation pedigree (with numbers), all breeds. Border Collies:

AKC or American Border Collie Ass'n, Inc. or American-International Border Collie. Parson

Russell Terriers: AKC pedigree.

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Cholla1,

You wrote:

"That paragraph lacks logic when you mean to say that the AKC agility shows are not fun and you can't show forever at the lower levels if you don't qualify for the upper ones and that because they are AKC people don't have fun."

 

You took that out the context to which I was replying to Diane about ability. I am sure that AKC people have as much fun as USDAA, NADAC or a person setting up 3 jumps and a seesaw in their backyard.

 

My original point in my original post was that the televised show did nothing overtly to save the life of or place 1 shelter or rescue dog and that is my primary concern. Would a 30 or even 15 second PSA about responsible breeding, spaying, neutering, or rescue been too much to ask?

 

My wife and I have worked with volunteer no kill shelters for years and it breaks my heart when we go to the pound and take 1 or 2 that could maybe be placed knowing the hundreds we could not take are seeing their last day.

 

My gripe is that the public perception of the AKC is that it is the protector and enhancer of ALL qualities of a given dogs breed, therefore if you want the best of a breed and all its qualities, not just appearence be it GSD, BC, ASD, lab, or whatever, get an AKC registered dog. The AKC does nothing to avoid that perception. And we are not talking Coke versus Pepsi here, we are talking about living, breathing beings.

 

If you want to jump on me for my disdain of the AKC and their contribution to dog overpopulation and the irrepairable harm they have done to many once proud breeds, be my guest. If I can get 1 person to get the death row or rescue dog and forgo the AKC as a source, I consider it an even trade.

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Well said Gary, and power to you for standing up for yourself inspite of of ridiculous and petty counter arguments that were themselves completely lacking in logic and apparently valid content. FAR TOO many people have been run off of this board by the "I can TYPE louder than you" mentality.

sara

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---"If you want to jump on me for my disdain of the AKC and their contribution to dog overpopulation and the irrepairable harm they have done to many once proud breeds, be my guest. If I can get 1 person to get the death row or rescue dog and forgo the AKC as a source, I consider it an even trade."---

 

Gary, you don't like the AKC period.

That is your right.

 

I don't like "no kill" shelters, like the one you seem to be so proud of, period.

I consider them illogical warehouses for dogs. That money could be better spent on trying to rehome adoptable dogs as soon as possible, as our city shelter here does.

We get all those dogs you so decry that are euthanized after three days, that no-kill shelters many times turn down because they are full of dogs, many unadoptable, kept there forever.

Our local no-kill shelter funnels away many of the resources and donations to kennel a few animals, some of questionable temperament that should never be adopted out, money that we could use to really help keep many dogs a few days longer and so increase our adoptions at the regular city shelter.

 

Each one of us has our sopaboxes, yours is the AKC being wrong no matter what they do. Your right.

 

To blame the oversupply of dogs and all is wrong with today's use and abuse of dogs on the AKC is a little lame.

Backyard breeders and puppy mills are the ones that are mass-producing dogs today, some of them with their own registries.

 

I admit that the AKC does much wrong but say plenty right also.

We have to live with the blame that those working in the performance part, that is getting more and more important all the time, get for the AKC having been started and run all these years and still being run, by a minority of narrow minded conformation people.

Many of those people don't like us performance folks, by the way, but we are weighing in more and more.

 

I think that there is room for all in this world and that the AKC will come along and moderate their stand on conformation, so it will not be so absurd and will require some performance qualifications for titles.

It has been slowly changing and will more, I assume, as the performance part is getting more and more important every day.

 

Yes, I think they will still have border collies in conformation and that is the right of those people that want it so, as it is the right of the ABCA to keep them off the AKC registry on that premise (something I agree with also, even if it is giving us two different breeds).

 

I wonder how many ABCA breeders will want to go along with that and lose the chance to sell to people just because they may go AKC with their dogs.

 

Around here they seem to be more than glad to sell to AKC homes and ask much more money than they would another trialer and are getting it.

 

Just because a core of ABCA people don't like the AKC, I wonder how most other people that train border collies and trial feel about this, if they even care.

 

To each their own.

 

As far as international requirements for showing in World Agility Shows under the FCI, I doubt that we should blame that on the AKC, if that was the intent of that poster.

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I won't deny that far too many no kill shelters exercise poor judgement in selection criteria. We had left one local shelter and started working with another for that very reason. We have also fostered and worked with the "questionable temperament that should never be adopted out' types you mention and found most of them to be sweet loving animals that have brought joy to those that have taken them. Yes, most of the times it takes more than the 3 to 7 days most city shelters can or will keep them before euthanasia. As you are aware working with shelter dogs, cage after cage of crying barking dogs can be the root of the problem for many under-socialized dogs. And a lot of no kills do not take the "cream of the crop" so to speak precisely because those are the ones most likely to be adopted from the shelter.

 

On the point of "To blame the oversupply of dogs and all is wrong with today's use and abuse of dogs on the AKC is a little lame." again if feel I am being quoted out of context since I said "AKC and their contribution". But since you said "Backyard breeders and puppy mills are the ones that are mass-producing dogs today, some of them with their own registries." I did a little search of some major papers on line such as the Detroit News and LA Times and a search of Bargain Trader Online and found in the News and Times 60-70% had "AKC registered" or "AKC pedigree" in the text and in the Bargain Trader 501 out of 600 with the same wording. So it seems that the registry of choice for the BYB's and puppy mills is the AKC.

 

If the AKC was serious about its image and wanted to cut back on this abuse, they have the power to limit it. And in this age of computerized everything, they know who is registering what and how often.

 

But then...

Thursday, April 4, 2002

Animal group fights puppy protection bill

American Kennel Club argues rules would allow feds to poke around homes

 

By Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- Hardly a whimper was heard when the Senate approved a Puppy Protection Act specifying how often dogs can be bred and how their puppies are to be treated. Happy puppies make better dogs, said backers of the rules.

But the American Kennel Club is lobbying to stop them from becoming law, arguing that federal inspectors would be unleashed to poke around private homes all over the country. The group wants the rules stripped from the final version of a bill overhauling federal farm programs.

"If the people who are currently closest to dogs -- breeders, veterinarians and animal behaviorists -- don't have a consensus as to how is the best way to raise a dog, then how can the federal government have a way?" said AKC spokeswoman Stephanie Robinson.

The Puppy Protection Act, which the Senate passed on a voice vote, is one of several animal welfare provisions that were added to either the Senate or House versions of the farm bill, and they are all in trouble as negotiators write the final legislation.

The Puppy Protection Act would limit how often dogs could be bred and require that puppies be properly socialized by exposure to people. There's also a three-strikes-you're-out provision that would revoke a breeder's license after a third violation.

 

Now I don't want the feds poking around my house either, but on the other hand it did not appear the AKC was offering an alternative, a compromise bill or even an offer to perform their own oversight.

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Does anyone know if ABCA or AKC (either one) would register pups if the dam was ABCA and the sire AKC? I have a client considering this course of action (I'm trying to dissuade her, naturally), but I realised that I have no idea if either registry would recognise the pups, and/or if there would be other problems. The client says the AKC BC she is considering is "the only BC ever to win Westminster" (oh, maybe I should have posted this to that thread - oh, well.) I have no idea if a BC ever HAS won Westminster, since I don't usually watch it, and I've never owned an AKC dog, so I'm not clear on the rules. At any rate I'm trying to coax her into another course of action (particularly as her bitch has evidently got some talent for sheep, though she hasn't gotten far with training), but it made me wonder about the registration thing. Possibly if neither registry would recognise the pups - except with an ILP number - that might tip the balance in my favor a little bit. She was a bit vague about the sire's herding ability, and we did have an edited discussion about the whole "why do you want to breed" thing, which hopefully will find fertile soil, though I'm not counting on it. The bitch is too young yet and hasn't had hips or eyes certified, so there's still time to try to talk her out of it....

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No bc has ever won Westminster. Breed winners yes, but not the show---and since their first year there, there have been "breed" winners every year.

 

Re: the registration, to go with AKC, the dam would have to be reg. with them. Since there is still open registration, she'd have to be registered AKC in order for the pups to be, and then, I'm not sure if her registration would have to be in effect at the time of their birth for the pups to be eligible.

 

Unless the sire is dual reg. with ABCA, there is no way the pups can be reg. with ABCA, unless he's ROM'd.

 

As far as ILP's go, they would each have to be registered individually with ILP #'s, and be altered.

 

Those are the options as I understand them.

 

Vicki

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If the AKC was serious about its image and wanted to cut back on this abuse, they have the power to limit it.
With it's "Canine Health Foundation", there is no doubt that there are some constructive things going on in the organization. However, they are not going to cut their own throats by actively working to eliminate puppymills and slob breeders. They do suspend registration privileges, sometimes for life, depending on the situation, but that's a slap on the wrist and there are often ways for these people to get around these suspensions. The registrations from mass produced pups is their bread & butter.

 

Vicki

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My understanding of puppy mills and the AKC is that the AKC has been tightening their qualifications and inspections so much with the aid of DNA testing that the puppy mills have started their own registry and so don't depend on the AKC any more for their "papers".

They even sponsor (that they really run) "shows" so their dogs can be "champions".

 

If I remember correctly, since it has been a few years now that this came to be, the puppy mills registries are National Kennel Club and Continental Kennel Club, a name that the Canadian Kennel Club resents mightily as those are their same letters and people are being misled often by that.

 

The AKC had much to say about that bill that would restrict how people can own dogs.

According to them, any person could file a complaint against the way you were keeping, raising and training, much less breeding your dogs, if it passes as written and you would have to defend yourself.

They considered it another of the animal rights tries to impinge on all's rights to own and keep dogs/any animals and so were fighting it, like they are the laws about specific breeds of dogs, or needing extra insurance if not banning outright dogs over a certain weight and such.

 

See what is happening in Germany for those questions of the government legalizing the owning of dogs to that extent.

Some is good, if it curbs any abuses that happen but other is right down assaults on our rights to keep animals.

 

About what the poster that defended today's no-kill shelters said, what was written is right, some of those shelters are now changing their position and relinquishing the clearly unadoptable dogs to the city shelters if not euthanizing them at their places.

I wish more hurry up and do it so as to give more dogs a chance, but they evidently rather keep some alive as long as they will, no matter what.

Sad situation. I wish it was easy to decide what is best...

 

What I meant to say is that those dogs that may, may, with much work, turn around and overcome a bad start in life and maybe bad inherited temperament are taking such a huge part of the resources that would be better used to train and make adoptable several other dogs in that time.

 

I do understand that it is a nice feeling to turn a difficult dog around and have done so myself, sometimes questioning if the process was going to work or was worth that time and effort, so I know where they are coming from and admit that anyone doing anything to help should be commended.

I object to it when the needs are so great now and it is taking away from the relly sweet and adoptable dogs that don't get a chance at all.

 

I too wish that there was a moratorium for ALL on breeding, but it is an impossibility, if such was implemented, even with a laws with big teeth, the good breeders would be the only ones hurt and the backyard breeders and oops! breedingds would continue, to the detriment of so many dogs bred without any care about their health and temperament.

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I am going out of town momentarily, so I don't have time to respond to this thread as I would like. However, very quickly, the Puppy Protection Act currently pending in Congress (H.R. 3484) which the AKC is campaigning vigorously to oppose, does two things. It forbids licensed dealers and exhibitors from breeding a bitch before she is a year old, and forbids breeding her to whelp more than three times in any 24-month period. That's it. A bill introduced in a prior session did have some requirements for proper socialization of pups, but they have been dropped from the present bill, which the AKC opposes just as fervently.

 

The AKC distracts people from what the bill actually says by lots of talk about "intrusive government" and "the animal rights agenda," because there aren't many folks outside of puppy millers who could be persuaded to oppose this bill if they knew what it actually said.

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