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libby-at-home

what DOES define the border collie?

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I am not sure what they are, I will have to check they are hanging at our dog clubs training hall, I will take note of that next time I am there for ya though if ya like what I do know however is that they have friends in the states, and if I remeber correctly they mentioned something about staying at a friends place, which happend to be a sheep farm, and they worked happys mom there, this happend before I knew them so all I remeber is from storys. but ya the next time I am at the training hall I will definatly see who she is certified by

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there are alot more people doing doggie sports than herding with border collies, so having a seperate breed seems to be the best way to handle it.

 

I couldn't agree less.

 

My opinion is that the entire idea of breeding dogs especially for sports is fundamentally misguided. I think people should be able to control themselves and not breed dogs to be sports equipment.

 

Since people seem to be unable to control themselves, the next best thing is just for them to leave our dogs the hell alone.

 

I don't believe there are any statistics supporting your assertion that more people do doggie sports than herding with Border Collies.

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>

 

I don't know how Northof49 knows of them, and I'm not familiar with them at all since I'm not into flyball, but apparently Happy's breeders are some people named Wesdyk and their kennel is called Weskeys -- is that right, Shayna? They have an ad at a site called The Dog Department Store, http://agilityflyballdogsforsale.com/breeder.htm . I went to their website, and though they show many dogs doing many things (mostly flyball), none of them remotely resembles herding. There is no mention of working ability at all that I could see, not even the usual pro forma claim that it's one of the things they breed for. It says that their pups "go to their new homes . . . well on their way to being a good family pet and/or performance dog."

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yes thats right, I know it does not say anything on ther website, but I know them personally, and I know plenty of things that are not on the website, I know the personalitys of all the dogs, I know that cajun is blind in one eye(he is no longer bred anymore, and all puppy owners were notified as soon as this was found out) spirit has cancer in his shoulder, and degenertive arthritus in his writs and one foot, vici is no longer living she had heart murmer, etc.. you get the idea, I know a LOT of stuff that is not listed on their website.

 

the website has also been being updated a lot recently, they are working on a new page right now(for what I have no idea but they asked for some pics of happy for the new page :confused: ) they consintrate only on preformance these past few years, which is why I will no longer get BCs from them, they have totally changed there plane since they got competive in flyball(only in the past 3 years) and now they focus on preformance. I also own one of there pyrshep puppys(Blair from the "B" litter)

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Originally posted by border_collie_crazy:

I am not sure what they are, I will have to check they are hanging at our dog clubs training hall, I will take note of that next time I am there for ya though if ya like

Actually, it doesn't really matter to me if you do or not, I was just curious whether you knew anything about herding whatsoever and what "certificates" they were that convinced you Happy's parents were herding dogs worthy of reproduction. Since you cited them in such a way as to imply the certificates meant the dogs could herd stock, I mean.

 

RDM

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ooo k, I personally dont know a whole lot about herding, only what I have read, and I have only worked happy, on ducks and geese. I dont know to much about happys dad, but I do know that her moms entire lines are working stockdogs, and that half her dads lines are working stockdogs, and the other half is a mix. I did not know them at the time remeber, I just remeber that they have friends on a sheepfarm, and that the dogs are herding certified, and the only way I know that is from seeing the certificats and hearing about the sheep farm. 'fraid thats all I know, I have not looked much into it, I had no reason too before.

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on the topic of sheep, i do recall that after they finish building there new kennels, they plan to get some sheep, so they can properly work there dogs, i hope they follow through with this plan, then i will be able to take my girls up there to work real stock

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Shayna,

 

There is a difference between "title herding" (as I call it) and Border Collie herding, as you may already know. Some examples of title herding organizations are AKC and AHBA. These organizations give titles that you earn much the same way you earn titles in obedience, flyball, or agility: by earning points and "legs."

 

The levels and courses are designed so that a number of different herding breed dogs can compete together. Now, compared to Border Collies, most other breeds of dogs, well, can't really herd. Therefore, the levels and courses offered by title-herding are, well, too easy for Border Collies. Any good working Border Collie can walk his way to several advanced titles without any trouble. The problem is, dogs who can barely herd can also gain advanced titles (although it takes a lot more effort). The moral of this story is that "herding certificates" don't mean very much and don't tell you if the dog is actually a good sheepdog or not. It would be like making a big deal out of a dog having a novice flyball title or a lower-level agility title like an NA.

 

Another analogy I can think of is, you know how in England, they have special divisions in agility and flyball that Border Collies aren't allowed to compete in, because Border Collies are so good they kick everyone's butt all the time? The rules and time limits in the non-BC divisions are easier, or so I am told, way too easy for Border Collies. It's like that. Title herding is just too easy for well-bred Border Collies. So, doing well in it doesn't mean very much, and therefore, "certificates" don't mean much.

 

Then there's "Border Collie herding." This is an entirely different ball of wax. Border Collies have traditionally been tested by a type of trial that is described by International Sheepdog Society (ISDS) rules. Unlike title herding, where most classes take place in a tiny pen or arena, these trials take place in big fields with relatively "wild" sheep. There are a lot of reasons why they're harder, but the short version of the story is that they're a lot harder and a lot more competitive. Also, they are designed specifically to test the unique abilities of the Border Collie, rather than being a lowest-common-denominator sort of trial for any sort of "herding dog." You know how in agility, some organizations are thought to be easier to compete in than others? Well, it's like that except that the difference is much huger. You have to have a much more talented dog and be a much better handler to do well in ISDS-style trials.

 

In the U.S. and Canada, the organizations that sponsor these kinds of trials are the USBCHA and the CBCA. Neither one of these organizations awards titles or certificates. Therefore, if a dog has "certificates" in herding I know they were not earned in real Border Collie trials. (I keep saying Border Collie trials, although that's a misnomer. Actually, any breed of dog is allowed to compete in a USBCHA or CBCA trial -- but 99.9% of the time, other breeds simply aren't talented enough to do so.)

 

If you're interested in learning more about real Border Collie herding, check out the Little Hats website, which is especially for novice Border Collie herders.

 

You are so driven and so interested in dogs, and so interested in training, that I think it would be great if you got into real herding. I think you would enjoy it -- it's like taking training and your relationship with your dog to an entirely different level. I never looked at Solo, my first Border Collie, the same way again after I started working with him on sheep -- there was this real working dog inside him that I never knew was there before, he knew how to do things I never dreamed he knew how to do, and understood them better than I ever would. Almost everyone who starts their Border Collie in ISDS-style herding goes through this epiphany and it's really something amazing. It's also done a whole hell of a lot for my relationship with both of my dogs, and my agility trainer thinks it's made me a much better agility handler, too.

 

Another website you might be interested is the CBCA website, here.

 

Happy herding -- er, I mean, holidays!

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I have a question-not trying to be a smartass. For those of you who say your BC has herded ducks and geese or rabbits-how do you assume this means your BC has herding ability? (Which not all of you have said.) I mean-where are you herding them from? Its not like they are out grazing in a field or possibly miles from where they are being herded to. I'm not an expert, but it must be much much more difficult (and different)to herd livestock such as sheep and cattle. And when you say this-is your BC just out there running circles around the little critters or is your BC actually working with you and taking cues from you?

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geese are evil, and we have an over abundence of them, every year people and BCs are called out to round hundreds of geese into crates to be shipped to another place for the good of the enviroment, the geese here are huge and evil, and totally wild,happy has not participated in this yet, she is not ready to work geese with a whole bunch of people and other dogs yet, but once happy gets more practice, I would love to partisipate in this even one day. wild evil geese are NOT easy to herd ya know, happy got bit once, when she was just begining, but it sure made her smarter, and think twice about ignoring the commands I give her lol

 

melenie, its not a herding title that her parents have, I know that much, its not a trial, its a herding test certifying that she has herding ability and instinct, that is all I remeber reading on the certificat. I think there was another one to, but I may be mistaken, I know that there is 2 certificats there I dont remeber what the other one was for though, it may be for something else. like I said I never really looked that closey at it.

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Goose work isn't the same as herding. I've never worked geese (although Solo's chased them off a few fields -- if he didn't have aggression issues he'd be a monster goosedog, since he loves to chase them, won't quit until they're gone, and scares the everloving crap out of them -- he has this patented roar that starts small and gets louder and louder and he only uses it on geese), but I have lots of friends who chase geese for a living at least part time. I don't know how you do it up in Canada, but down here, you don't round up the geese, you just chase them off. Since they fly, it'd be near impossible, I'd think, to herd them into crates. You're right though, they are very feisty.

 

AKC and AHBA, as well as some breed clubs, offer "instinct certification" that means even less than a herding title. Generally in an instinct test, you have sheep in a small pen and the dog passes as long as he shows sustained interest in the sheep. That can include anything from chasing them aimlessly to eating sheep poop and looking at them regularly to actually working them. There's a brief discussion of "instinct tests" here. And another page has this to say about "instinct tests" --

 

"HERDING INSTINCT EVALUATIONS are commonly done by many organizations.? They are useful because evaluations provide an opportunity for BC owners to see their dogs react to sheep... However, herding instinct evaluations are not a reliable gauge of herding ability.? In many cases they are nothing more than a test of prey drive and certainly don't measure ability or talent. Training, exhibiting and using the dogs for farm work are the only mechanisms to accurately evaluate what ability/talent the dog has.?? For breeding purposes we have to be very careful not to over interpret what herding instinct means.? While instinct certification could suggest that you have something to work with if you want to do herding,? it? might also simply mean the dog is having fun chasing sheep and will never have a clue about herding balance, how to do an outrun, how to gather sheep, how to handle a single, etc...? In the best of all worlds we should do more to evaluate true herding ability before breeding.? If we don't we could easily end up with lots of BCs that have all the herding instinct of a Jack Russell Terrier and no talent to use it."

 

http://www.duke.edu/~awho/herding/glossary.htm

 

Most dogs who will chase animals can pass an instinct test.

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I agree that is what there purpose is NOW, there planned breeding is a preformace litter out of happys sister. however there previous breedings, they did focus on working ability as well, I have seen her parents herding certificates,
Shayna - breeding for flyball has ever only been their purpose. To the point that at one time they were talking about needing to breed Belgian Tuerverens with longer backs than they are supposed to have, in order to make them faster at flyball! Dynna is not registered, so I don't know her pedigree.

 

Herding certificates - you are probably referring to Herding Instinct Test Certificates which basically means squat - my one cat would be able to pass that - the sheep NEVER messed with him!

I don't know what working ability either Dynna or Cajun have, so I am not going to assume that they nave none - that would be a wrong assumption to make.

 

Sorry to hear about Cajun's eye - what was the diagnosis?

 

Also sorry to hear about Spirit's problem with cancer, however, the arthritis in his wrists and foot don't surprise me in the least with all the flyball. A lot of dogs are coming up with degenerative changes in their feet, wrists, shoulders and particularl their spines at very early ages from the repetitive pounding on the flyball box from extensive training and trialling.

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acually spirit rarly played flyball, he is 4 years old and only just got his FDX, I think the kennel he came from is not very good personally, vici came from the same kennel, and she died of heart murmer. however yes he did orginaly hurt himself in flyball, but he gets to be a couch potato now, either way thank goodness he wont be playing flyball, as he would be running on happys team, and that dog hates happy. by the way I do know dynas pedigree, and its full of nothing but working farm border collies, she is straight off a farm herself. I did not know about the bengen thing, bcause they have not bred belgens in years. but anyway I am only talking about their border collies, who have worked sheep before, just for fun, but they have done it. and I do know that they plan to get sheep so they CAN work the BCs, there are no sheep anywhere near by to work, there is a reason they have not done much with sheep, and why they plan to get sheep so people can come out and work there dogs. again i dont know for sure what the herding certificats are, i am just guessing, like i said next time i am at the building i will check them out.

 

as for cajuns eye all I know is that he was recently diagnosed as being blind in his right eye(not updated on the webpage yet) so all owners with pups sired by him were notified and advised to have there dogs eyes checked just in case, the docters dont know if his is hereditary or not, so far non of his pups have had any problems, hopfully it stays that way.

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Originally posted by border_collie_crazy:

but anyway I am only talking about their border collies, who have worked sheep before, just for fun, but they have done it. and I do know that they plan to get sheep so they CAN work the BCs, there are no sheep anywhere near by to work, there is a reason they have not done much with sheep, and why they plan to get sheep so people can come out and work there dogs.

That's called "putting the cart before the horse" Shayna - don't let it fool you into thinking it's a responsible thing to do. Good border collie breeders don't breed their dogs and then "try" them on sheep later on. They breed dogs that are excellent examples of working stockdogs.

 

The real reason they have not worked their dogs on sheep is because they are not interested in their dogs being stockdogs. They are interested in their dogs being FLYBALL dogs. Working the dogs on sheep "just for fun" does not a working-dog breeder make.

 

It's nice they are planning on getting sheep so people can "come out and work their dogs" but if they don't know anything about sheepherding, how effective are they going to be as sheepdog trainers? It sounds to me like, as it is here, herding is getting "popular" there and they are cashing in on a trend. I guess for some people, being a good businessman is a bigger priority than being a good breeder.

 

RDM

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It's nice they are planning on getting sheep so people can "come out and work their dogs" but if they don't know anything about sheepherding, how effective are they going to be as sheepdog trainers? It sounds to me like, as it is here, herding is getting "popular" there and they are cashing in on a trend. I guess for some people, being a good businessman is a bigger priority than being a good breeder.
well ya got that wrong. herding is NOT popular here, buisness is why they are getting agility equipment, because agility is what people want to do, forget about any other thing you can do with your dogs, agility is the only thing people in this city want, I meant people they knew, like the club can come out and work there dogs, and if someone else wants to which is seriously unlikley they can. I also did not say(or dident mean to say at least) that they bred working dogs, I said they bred sport dogs, but did not cancel herding right out, herding is still a priorirty even though its not the #1 any more.

 

again I hope what I have wrote makes sence, I am a horrable writer, so my posts(on many other boards anyway) get interpreted to say something totally differnt somehow :confused: so I try to make things as straight forward(in my mnd anyway) as possable, exuse me if I sound weird sometimes lol I am trying my best to make sence. :rolleyes:

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well ya got that wrong. herding is NOT popular here, buisness is why they are getting agility equipment, because agility is what people want to do, forget about any other thing you can do with your dogs, agility is the only thing people in this city want,
Well, considering they don't really know anything about agility or the complexity of training it, it would be nice for them to learn and actually start competing with their dogs for a couple of years before they start teaching classes.

 

Your City is still mainly flyball geared and I think it always will be - nothing wrong with that. Agility is starting to get a small foothold, but still the main sport is flyball, and no one gives up a flyball tournament to go do an agility trial.

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Shayna honey,

It's hard to accept what other people have to say sometimes, especially if it does not accord with what you've been told by your parents or members of your fly ball team or the breeder of your dog or whatever. I used to have similar discussions with my kids when they were in public school and high school, when they would tell me something their teachers had told them that was wrong and that I knew was wrong. They really had a hard time accepting that their teacher could have made a mistake or maybe didn't know what he or she was talking about.

But, I bet you're going to be in border collies for a long time, and I assure you that what you call herding is nothing like the real thing.

Why don't you go to see a real (USBCHA) trial sometime and see what real stockdogs can do? I bet you that you are smart enough and know enough about training dogs that just watching a few Open runs will make you realize that what these dogs can do is WAY beyond what you've been calling "herding" up to now, and that it takes a very high degree of natural ability and a lot of sophisticated training to accomplish what they do.

There's a Saskatchewan Stockdog Association website, http://www.saskstockdog.com/ that will list trials in Saskatchewan for the coming year at some point. Why not go see a trial, I bet it'll make you want to give it a try at some point yourself in the future. I warn you though, you may never be able to go back to flyball.

Andrea

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however, the arthritis in his wrists and foot don't surprise me in the least with all the flyball. A lot of dogs are coming up with degenerative changes in their feet, wrists, shoulders and particularl their spines at very early ages from the repetitive pounding on the flyball box from extensive training and trialling.

 

Define "A lot"?? That's just something I'm not seeing to a wide extent over the last 6-7 years with our team's flyball dogs (35+ currently competing, more in training and retired). Of course, we teach proper technique and conditioning to minimize any potential stress. In fact, one of my rescue dogs had an arthritic wrist when I got her and has been playing for about 4 years now with no problems.

 

I've found many people outside the sport of flyball presume flyball is the cause of all injuries a dog may get, whether or not they can be attributed to the sport or not. I'm not naively stating flyball can't cause injuries, as I know it can, I'm just seeing a lot presumptively being blamed on flyball w/o any evidence to support that claim. I'd also be curious to know if the dogs you're hearing about with these problems have a proper turn and have been properly conditioned and trained.

 

-Laura

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Originally posted by rtphokie:

I've found many people outside the sport of flyball presume flyball is the cause of all injuries a dog may get, whether or not they can be attributed to the sport or not. I'm not naively stating flyball can't cause injuries, as I know it can, I'm just seeing a lot presumptively being blamed on flyball w/o any evidence to support that claim.

I'm no flyball expert - in fact, I can't stand the sport myself - but I've been involved with it for some time and I have to say that flyball seems to contradict everything we tell people about raising puppies. Why can a one year old dog compete in an impact-heavy sport, for starters? It seems to me that flyball can be done fairly safely, but I don't understand why people are letting their babies rocket down the jump sequences and bounce off that box. You can't convince me that it doesn't negatively impact a dog's joints, especially a growing dog.

 

Just an observation. I personally loathe the sport of flyball and while two of my dogs are training, someone else will take them to tournaments because I can't sit and listen to that barking all day.

 

And Northof49 - here's someone that would blow off a flyball tournament any dog for an agility trial. Or a chance to wash my hair, or watch paint dry!

 

RDM

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yes, with a proper turn the dogs are perfectly safe, spirits problem was found because he was injured at flyball, which is what prompted them to have it checked out, which is how the degeneritive arthritus, and cancer was found, flyball did not cause it. a flyball injury is quite rare, and rarly rarly serious, heck most injurys in flyball are all to the handlers not the dog! heck happys sister got a concussion in flyball and she is still a great dog, no problems whatsoever, the head injury was due to a crash with her brother. other then that the worst injurys you see is the dog biting its tounge! now a bad box turn(2 feet instead of 4) THAT can cause problems which is why we train the swimmers turn, which is faster AND easier on the joints.

 

Well, considering they don't really know anything about agility or the complexity of training it, it would be nice for them to learn and actually start competing with their dogs for a couple of years before they start teaching classes.

 

Your City is still mainly flyball geared and I think it always will be - nothing wrong with that. Agility is starting to get a small foothold, but still the main sport is flyball, and no one gives up a flyball tournament to go do an agility trial.

yes I agree they are teaching things that they dont do themelves and I completly agree that they should do agility themselves for a few years before they start teaching it, they have been to one seminare, I have done agility trials, and heck agility trials and seminars dont make me qualfied to teach a class on it, I am not sure how one seminare and thats it makes them quailified :rolleyes: as for my city being very flyball orinated well kind of,your right that all our clubs are vert flyball orintated compared to a lot of other citys, but the city itself, well its agility that people want, thats the only reason we will teach agility, if we dont we will loose our training hall, because people dont want flyball, they dont want obedience, or rally-O they want agility, if you dont give it to them we will loose our building, not a whole lot we can do about that, you have to give the people what they want or you are out of buisness, and agility is what they want. I just wish they would allow my mom and I to teach the class at least, we have been doing it longer,(not to mention my mom is a much better teacher, they could not get this poodle to play flyball for the life of them, my mom took that poodle with her owner took them to the other end of the building and had this dog, that the wesdyks were saying was a horrable flyball dog etc.. and had it running just about a full coarse by the end of one class, I am not joking) the thing is th rest of the club arrives to the building on time(unlike them) and are better qualified to teach many classes then them, they just refuse to let anyone else teach, and then complain that no one helps :D but yes I definatly agree with you on that point.

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Melanie......... i'm only agreeing with what "you" said in you post 12/23/03 @1:11PM. the las paragraph...virg Denice... i don't have any facts on that statement about more sport people vs. herding...it's just that everywhere you go you see people doing flyball and other sports with thier bc. seems like every weekend there is a sporting event going on for border collies, and for me to go to a herding trial, i have to drive 6 to 8 hours. virg

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well...I went to the link at the bottom of this page www.bordercollie.org and there are some great articles there..one which I read last night about the BC war with the AKC...when we went to bed last night I was telling my hubby all about the two different camps of ideas and shared with him about this thread.Also about the sport collie and barbie collie, the flyball controversy, breeding etc...it was so strange, because as I was talking to him I found myself taking the view point against the AKC on the breeding of conformation BC's, when I thought I really hadn't made up my mind yet. Those articles on the link really helped me form a clearer idea on these issues... I think I'm starting to get the whole picture, and to understand better why several people on this board are so strongly opinioned about these issues...

 

 

Eileen....one more question..how do they handle this in Great Britian? Doesn't a dog have to pass some kind of a test before it can be called a BC, or something like that???

 

HAPPY CHRISTMAS!!

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Happy Christmas, Libby and all.

 

What you're probably thinking of is that the Kennel Club in Great Britain, when it recognized the border collie, agreed to a performance requirement before a border collie could get the title "Champion." Show border collies who meet the normal requirements for the Ch. title do not get that title (they get the limited title "Show Champion," instead), unless they also pass a test administered by the ISDS, which is equivalent in difficulty to a mid-level sheepdog trial. Under this policy, very, very few of the many British show border collies (2 or 3, I think) have received the title of Ch. This makes it hard for the breeders of show dogs to claim, as so many do in the US, that their dogs still have herding ability and "can do it all."

 

The policy that a border collie cannot be considered a Champion based on looks alone is of some value in maintaining the integrity of the breed, although the main advantage in this respect that the UK has over the US is that the idea is well-established among the population at large over there that the border collie is first and foremost a working stockdog, and not just a show-defined breed like other breeds. That knowledge comes not only from the fact that the BC breed originated there, but also because most people there are closer to agriculture -- even city people who take drives out into the country are quite likely to see a border collie working. (The very popular TV show "One Man & His Dog" played a part too.) We simply don't have that widespread understanding in the US.

 

When the AKC was threatening to recognize the border collie, and the BCSA (which you read about at http://www.bordercollie.org/akc.html ) was trying to become recognized as parent club, the BCSA said it would insist on a similar kind of performance standard for the Ch. title. But they soon learned that you cannot "insist" on anything with the AKC; an 800-pound gorilla sits wherever it wants. When the AKC flatly rejected the idea of a performance requirement for BCs to receive the Ch. title, BCSA polled its membership over whether it should withdraw from seeking parent club status, as it had vowed it would in that case. The membership voted to go ahead anyway, the then-president of the BCSA resigned and was replaced, and the club dropped its insistence on a performance requirement.

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