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libby-at-home

what DOES define the border collie?

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you find 2 dogs that exel in both herding AND sports, as in they are fast and exele in herding, and breed them, not that tricky. you breed with sports in mind by having sport qualitys in mind as well, again not that tricky,I dont see why this is such a hard concept to grasp.

 

Shayna, it's a hard concept for us to grasp because it's not true.

 

**********************

 

>Originally posted by rtphokie:

But I guess I can't expect an 11th grader to understand that... <

 

Deafbat responds:

 

>I would expect people to be a little more mature. I understand it's frustrating to keep saying the same thing over and over again without getting through to people, but insulting them is not going to get your point across.<

 

But she is in 11th grade, deafbat. And she is definitely not understanding. I don't consider that an insult. She says she knows more about dogs than most other people, including adults who are breeders - more than us apparently. Since I now know the score, I'm done with this.

 

Denise

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Anyone who can support the breeding of Border-Jacks is never going to understand what those of us supporting and defending the working BC are talking about. I hate to think of a small minority of flyball people giving all of us sport people a bad name. Trust me guys, there are some of us "sport people" who are as disgusted with the breeding of Border-Jacks and diluted BC's as you are.

 

-L

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Originally posted by border_collie_crazy:

yes as a matter of fact I DO agree with breeding borderjacks, and am thinking about getting one some day.

Well, that says it all for me. You clearly don't have the breed's best interests in mind if you thinking breeding it to another breed is acceptable. There is no point is discussing this concept with you, because you lack the ability to appreciate the border collie.

 

Shayna, it's a shame that you will never be able to appreciate the border collie breed for all the things that made it so wonderful that you wanted one in the first place. Your loss.

 

RDM

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Virgil wrote:

 

>

 

Right. Except that it's very clear from what she wrote that she is defining "show dogs" as dogs who ARE BRED for show, and "sport dogs" as dogs who ARE BRED for sports. As she said earlier, "Then there are those dogs that are bred for some other specific purpose, like sports or conformation. These are breeding programs that are consciously trying to do something different and breeding toward a different set of goals. I don't consider these dogs to be Border Collies, as they are intended to be different by design." She is saying they are not border collies because of the goals toward which they are bred, not (as you claimed) because they were used for something other than herding or because they don't herd well.

 

*****

 

Shayna, thinking you know more than those with greater learning and experience is a well-known characteristic of the teen years, but the reason you lost all credibility with me has nothing to do with your age. It was your claim that your dog is "a fantastic herder" based on no experience that could reasonably give rise to such a claim. I'm sure you (or the breeders you're claiming to speak for) could take two border collies and breed a fast flyball dog from them. That's not hard. The difficulty would be in maintaining herding ability in the offspring, and your "fantastic herder" claim tells me you would have no way at all of judging whether the pups you produced had good herding ability or not. If you set your criterion for what makes a "fantastic herder" low enough, your self-defined success is assured, but that has no relation to your real-world success. So, like Denise, I've concluded that further discussion in this particular case would be pointless.

 

*****

 

Bill, I think selecting with regard to health concerns is a part of breeding for herding ability, not a conflict with it. That's different from selecting for a trait that's supposed to enable the dog to excel at something different from herding, like excessive speed for flyball or correct ear set for the breed ring. Selecting for health, if done well, is supposed to enhance working ability by decreasing the prevalence in the breed of conditions that would interfere with what the working dog can do and how long he can do it for. But I suspect we agree on this, too. We just disagree over how good a predictor radiography of parents is of hereditable defects in offspring.

 

*****

 

Quite apart from its content, I have to say this has probably been the most frustrating thread I've ever taken part in on these boards. I wish I were taking or teaching some kind of discourse or communication course, so that I could use this thread as a basis for study and discussion. Seems like some of us are from Uranus and some of us are from Pluto.

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Seems like some of us are from Uranus and some of us are from Pluto
Well, that's probably true. LOL! And I do apologize for all the frustration.

 

Melanie, the Great Dane anology was good, and I've not disputed that when you breed for different traits you get something different. My only dispute is that for now, like it or not, Border Collies are Border Collies regardless of the intent for which they were bred. That is their legal definition until/if changes take place. And by all means, the herding bred Border Collie should be the Border Collie. If YOU choose to not call them as such, as Eileen said earlier, it's a free world (though even that can be up for discussion...but not in this thread. )

 

As for the wired psycho Border Collies...they do exist, and when I applied to rescue, I met a few, which is how/why I ended up with my fluffy butts (whom I adore) when all of their antics were justified to "herding tendencies".

 

I've since learned a lot (yes, really) but still think, that until there is a fluffy-butt registry, they are Border Collies.

 

And in the interest of Christmas, and all that is right with the world, I've not meant to be antagonistic or obtuse (or careless in my reading of posts) and I'm sorry for any headache (especially Melanie banging her head against a wall - that's painful). I just came back from our local County Shelter, during the weekend we bought, assembled and donated a bed for every kennel in the facility, and man, was it nice to see the dogs off the cement. As I walked through, every one of those dogs was on his bed, and seemed, even if only for the moment, happier.

 

For me that puts it back into persepctive, and this frustrating thread is all the more worth it because it's made up of people who care enough to want to make a difference, one way or another.

 

Maria

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But she is in 11th grade, deafbat. And she is definitely not understanding. I don't consider that an insult. She says she knows more about dogs than most other people, including adults who are breeders - more than us apparently. Since I now know the score, I'm done with this.

 

Denise [/QB]

I was more objecting to the implication laura was making and also the tone--i.e. that an 11th grader couldn't possibly know/comprehend anything. Not to mention that bringing up Shayna's age is completely irrelevant. (I have a feeling that this post might offend, so before I'm just going to apologise beforehand just in case).

If we shadows have offended,

Think but this, and all is mended--

That you have but slumb'red here

While these visions did appear.

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Funny how "tone" and intent are so magically evident to all who read...too bad everyone never comes up with the same answer. I thought the poster's age was relevant, as has been already mentioned we all can think back to those years and chuckle at what we *thought* we knew... But her age aside, it's clear in her posts how much she actually understands about breeding & genetics. And anyone who comes on these boards and sings the praises of breeding Border-Jacks deserves whatever they get.

 

-L

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Funny how "tone" and intent are so magically evident to all who read...too bad everyone never comes up with the same answer.
eh?

 

I thought the poster's age was relevant, as has been already mentioned we all can think back to those years and chuckle at what we *thought* we knew...
1)chuckling at your reflections of your teenage years and saying just because someone is young means they can't possibly know or understand anything(which is what you came across as saying whether or not that was your intention) are two completely different things.

2)I'm sure there are many 11th graders who could understand what people are trying to say on this board, therefore, I feel that age *is* irrelevant.

 

But her age aside, it's clear in her posts how much she actually understands about breeding & genetics.
granted.

 

And anyone who comes on these boards and sings the praises of breeding Border-Jacks deserves whatever they get.

-L

wrong. that sentiment shows 1)a complete lack of willingness to communicate and educate (whether or not someone will listen is a completely different matter), which I don't think is your goal and 2)no one "deserves what's coming to them" because of ignorance, and it shows an insenitive and belligerent attitude.

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I'd like to say two things about teenagers.

 

First, for an 11th grader to know more about dogs and animals than most adults wouldn't surprise me at all. You could take what most adults know about dogs and animals and shove it up a bug's butt and it would rattle like a BB in a boxcar.

 

Second, when you tell most teenagers they're wrong about something, you'll generally get one of three responses: a.) "You're stupid." or b.) "No one understands me." or c.) "You're stupid and you don't understand me."

 

I'm sure that Shayna's dedication to flyball -- apparenlty single-minded and intense at this time -- will modify with age. When I was her age, the only thing that mattered was ham radio. I knew so very much about sunspots and the ionosphere, balancing standing waves on RF antennae. I can't even remember most of the morse code alphabet anymore.

 

We shouldn't be upset with Shayna. She's not the one who came up with the great idea of breeding Border collies to Jack Russell terriers to make a better dog to compete at a stupid game that people invented for their own amusement. She's not the one who has taught a child that winning such a game is more important than the value, heritage, and economic viability of one of the last real working dogs on the face of the Earth. Fact is, she'll probably grow out of it, while the sorry adults that have put these ideas in her head will still be out there, making more and more travesties and coming up with more ways to separate dog owners from their money.

 

How long until we see people breeding dogs for their ability to compete in "Freestyle?"

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Deafbat,

 

I believe many of us *tried* to "educate" the poster in a very civilized manner and those attempts fell on deaf ears. You're pretty new to these boards, stick around for awhile, this was a pretty tame discussion even though it's a very controversial topic and if you're into reprimanding everyone for every off-the-cuff comment, you'll stay pretty busy! LOL I never called the poster stupid or said she didn't know anything (she's the one who brought that up)...on the contrary, I believe she has learned a great deal from her mother and her flyball teammates, who are breeding AKC dogs just for sport alone. There's more to flyball than owning a fast dog and there's more to life than flyball, which hopefully everyone in the sport no matter their age will learn eventually if they haven't already.

 

-L

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Have to add my 2 cents....

I have one of the ballistic, psychotic rocket-dogs with the attention span of a gnat(unless she is outside stalking her BC/lab "brother" in which case a nuclear blast cannot distract her). She is in all appearence a purebred BC. She has many of the traits BC's are known for... crouch, eye, speed, quickness. She was, in most likelyhood, procured from a non WORKING DOG "breeder" (can't put what I really term these people)who sold this "Border Collie" to someone who wanted a "Barbie border looking collie" or a "Sport border looking collie".

 

She did not turn out to be what her "owners" (another term I can't use) wanted her to be, so she was abandoned and left to live or die running the roads and freeways near where I live for almost 2 years before we were able to trap her.

 

Now we have her and I love her dearly and would not trade her for any BC in the world, but my point is that she never should have been conceived in the first place. Her parents added nothing to the true BC bloodlines. Had she been bred to another BC, her pups may have been world champion Barbies or Sports, but never would have been working BC's. Shelters across the country are filled with these poor dogs that are put down every minute of every day.

 

Is this what the proponents of the non working BC's after? After all, most any mutt can be TRAINED to be a ball chaser or course runner.

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Thanks to Eileen and Bill( page 3), and all those who posted. But my head still hurts.

 

fine I give up you people are a bunch of narrow minded people, you have great intentions but refuse to think outside your tiny little box, it I that feels sorry for you.
Hey don't give up, the box is tiny for a reason if you see it that way. A poodle crossed with a cocker is cute but not a poodle. A beagle crossed with a pug may be cute and deserve to live, but it is neither a beagle or a Pug. Not breeding the dogs for the intended use will eventually dilute the breed simple as that. I love Irish setters, but the hunting instinct has all but been bred out of them. Goldens too for the most part. I believe the "narrow" minds you are so upset with are just trying to keep herding dogs, herding . Flyball and Agility are nice by products of their ability's but it isn't what they were bred for. Breed Standards are for a reason. AKC has lost sight of that for Commercial reasons. Sad but it's a fact. If it looks a certain way it will sell to those who care nothing for what the dog was meant to do. The peach tree analgy may be a little to esoteric. Let's put it this way, You can eat a Jersy cow, why waste the milk producing ability of the cow, just because you can get hamburger from it. It is suppose to be a MILK COW . Sorry my head still hurts......

Andrea D.

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Shayna,

 

Please go to your website and read your dog's story. This was a dog that was bred to be a sport dog first-maybe herding was taken into account but I know what lines Happy comes from and I don't think herding was a priority, speed was.

 

Seems that Happy has had many, many problems with temperament and health. Happy may have turned out to be a great dog for you but many others would have dumped or put down a dog like Happy.

 

When you start breeding for speed and agility, you loose the herding ability that makes the dog so good in the first place and you start shortening the gene pool. Plus, you start getting dogs with many problems and there is not an easy fix.

 

You are still young and have a strong will and ideas. I am 31 years old and you probably know a lot more than I did at your age. But, that still does not mean that the others on this board with many, many more years of experience are wrong.

 

If you would try to be open minded, you would see that breeding for herding ability is the only breeding that should take place as long as the breeding will hopefully improve the breed. These type of breedings will be what makes the great border collie that can also play flyball/agility, etc... but also be a great pet.

 

Breeding for sports is not OK. Breeding a mix breed to make a better height dog is totally wrong. There are more than enough dogs in rescue that would be just as great at flyball and would give you lower jumps in the long run.

 

I do think your age and love of flyball is why you are being so stubborn on the points everyone has been trying to make. There are times though, that you need to REALLY listen to the more experienced. And ones that are not all about dog sports.

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I think the problem is that people take "not a Border Collie" as an insult. The fact that they do is a great compliment to the Border Collie, but they need not react that way.

 

Let's say I have a friend with a fabulous Andalusian stallion. If I say, "Your horse is not a Clydesdale," that is not an insult. It is merely a statement of fact.

 

I am puzzled that anyone can be so attached to the label "Border Collie," without really caring what that label is supposed to stand for. Why attach it to a dog that is designed to be different from what a Border Collie is understood to be? If we throw names around like that, then all "Border Collie" means is just another black and white dog.

 

If I were so into dog sports that I wanted a dog specifically bred for them, I'd be proud to call that dog a Sport Collie and differentiate it from Border Collies. Most sport breeders believe that a well-bred working Border Collie is not as good at sports as a custom-bred Sport Collie (otherwise, why would they be breeding Sport Collies? maybe I'm being too charitable) and that some sort of "improvement" is necessary on the original "raw material."

 

If I were a sport breeder, I'd be getting serious about my breeding program and trying to start a new breed. I'd actually have a lot more respect for that than all this amateurish tinkering that they seem to be doing. I could even get sort of behind breeding a new type of dog just for height dogs if there were an actual breeding program that was serious about it and had the dogs' welfare in mind. But there are no breeding programs, there are just people who like the dogs they have and want to make more of them. That isn't necessarily evil, but it's also the reason that every backyard breeder on the planet has ever given for producing every ill-bred litter ever born.

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Melanie said:

 

"... then all 'Border Collie' means is just another black and white dog."

 

Hey! My BC is a blue merle. Are you trying to tell me he isn't a Border Collie????

 

JUST KIDDING!!! [ducking and running ...]

 

Jodi M.

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Melanie... you are correct, people do react very quickly about things that they are passionate about as i have seen it both ways here. your last post was perfectly clear to me, i don't know if it was what you said more than the way that you sait it, but it does make sence. there are alot more people doing doggie sports than herding with border collies, so having a seperate breed seems to be the best way to handle it. Merry Christmas. virg

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Shayna - hate to burst your bubble but I am very familiar with the breeder of Happy and their sole purpose is to produce flyball dogs.

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Laura--

 

Don't I know it. :rolleyes: I know that I posted my original confusion and then just sat back and read what everybody wrote and didn't respond again until I knew what it was that they were trying to say rather than being contentious and screaming about how my dog, is in fact, a border collie and no one could tell me otherwise without reading what people had posted. Granted it was confusing at first, but I finally got it (ah.."the great ah-haha moment" as one of my history profs used to refer to it :D ). And no doubt this post is confusing, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that patronizing people isn't going to get them to listen to you (and you usually have the opposite effect--as in shayna's case). But I'm gonna stop the whole "oh, stop being mean to people blah blah blah" attitude :D (isn't it great when you can make fun of yourself?) Suffice it to say, I think most of the people on this board understand what was trying to be said. If not, go back to my first post on this page, and then back to Melanie's post that I referred to (and read it completely). I think she ends up being pretty clear there as to what she was talking about. Or, you know, there are other posts on this page that can enlighten as well....Anyway...that's all I have to say about that.

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Shayna - hate to burst your bubble but I am very familiar with the breeder of Happy and their sole purpose is to produce flyball dogs.
I agree that is what there purpose is NOW, there planned breeding is a preformace litter out of happys sister. however there previous breedings, they did focus on working ability as well, I have seen her parents herding certificates, and no they are not AKC. however there bitch has retired from breeding, and there stud is only occasionly being used as a stud anymore, they have gotten new lines, and unfortinatly they are preformance lines only, and not working lines as before.

 

by the way, who do you think happys breeder is? and how are you familier with them?

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Originally posted by border_collie_crazy:

I have seen her parents herding certificates, and no they are not AKC.

What certificates are they Shayna? To my knowledge, there are no valid certifications for herding titles in Canada.

 

Just curious.

 

RDM

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