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What does your dog have to offer that makes her breed worthy? Papers aren't enough. Being a "unique colour" is not enough. Wearing costumes is definitely not enough.

 

Seriously, hundreds upon thousands of border collies are lucky if they make it out of the shelters where they are dumped every year. Why do you want to be party to breeding more? Did you read the sticky at the top of the board when you joined? If so, you should be familiar with the general feeling here that only really excellent working dogs (agility doesn't count) should be procreating, and should be bred by folks who have excellence in working dogs in mind. Breeding your pretty spotty puppy in a tutu isn't going to fall into the "responsible breeding" category. Please, spay your dog. Leave breeding to the breeders.

 

If it helps convince you, I've had every conceivable colour of border collie come through my rescue over the last 7 years; I've had ABCA and CBCA registered dogs. I've had trained stockdogs, agility and flyball dogs come in. I have had pupies born in rescue. There is NO shortage of pretty dogs looking for homes.

 

Want to foster? I have two 6 month old purebred pups looking for foster space right now.

 

RDM

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Any info will be appreciated, remember, I'm just throwing around the idea and would like to see different views/thoughts.
Umm, you asked :confused:

 

It sounds to me like her breeder was breeding more for color than working ability.

 

Unless you are ready to spend at least the next 3 years doing serious herding training and competition, you should not even consider it. And until she proves herself as a excellent herding dog in a wide variety of situations, you should not seriously consider it.

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When you say the breeder threw out this suggestion, does that mean you bought her with a contract that allows the breeder to breed her, or are you thinking about doing it yourself? And why would you?

 

Just curious. I personally don't think you should breed her. The number of animals killed in shelters every year is appalling and heartbreaking. I think breeding should only be done by reputable breeders, to improve the breed and obviously produce working dogs.

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Yes your are correct I did ask, but there are nicer ways to reply, in my world anyways.

 

What if I am ready to spend the next 3 years doing serious herding training and competition? What if I am looking at every way to promote her and her abilities? I live in a part of the country where it could be easily done.

 

I certainly didn?t join this forum to be bashed repeatedly...

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Hey, if you're going to ask the question:

 

She is a smooth coat blue merle tri, now with that are they highly sought after or not as much since they are not recognized as much as the reds, tris,and blacks?
And brag about how much your dog's line likes "wearing costumes," one can only assume your reasons for breeding are frivilous at best. I think you've painted a pretty clear picture, and you asked for opinions. You got mine, like it or not. If you want to prove me wrong, give me a concrete reason (costumes and colours aside) that your dog is worth breeding. So far, you haven't.

 

"Mr. Snappy" is my dog. I sign my posts "RDM."

 

RDM (<-- see?)

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Some of the main reasons that pop into my head (not including a lot of what RDM said - very good points BTW. I agree with RDM 100%)

 

Does she herd?

If so, is she AMAZING at it?

Has she been tested for hip/eye disorders at all? (sadly, because of breeding for color, there are plenty of unsound merles out there already)

How familiar are you with genetics and genetic dog diseases/problems? Color genetics don't count.

How much are you "in" the border collie world, would you know exactly what to look for in a stud dog?

Have you looked at the rescue/adoption forum on this board?

 

registration papers and color are the MAIN reasons puppy mills get away with what they do. People want the cute, rare colored, AKC registered puppies! But there is SO much more to breeding then that. Don't hurt the already huge problem of pet overpopulation - help it. SPAY/NEUTER your dogs!

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Originally posted by PSmitty:

When you say the breeder threw out this suggestion, does that mean you bought her with a contract that allows the breeder to breed her, or are you thinking about doing it yourself? And why would you?

 

No the breeder would not be breeding her. She simply mentioned it to me and I thought I could get some advice/ideas from this forum....
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Originally posted by MrSnappy:

Hey, if you're going to ask the question:

 

quote:
She is a smooth coat blue merle tri, now with that are they highly sought after or not as much since they are not recognized as much as the reds, tris,and blacks?
And brag about how much your dog's line likes "wearing costumes," one can only assume your reasons for breeding are frivilous at best. I think you've painted a pretty clear picture, and you asked for opinions. You got mine, like it or not. If you want to prove me wrong, give me a concrete reason (costumes and colours aside) that your dog is worth breeding. So far, you haven't.

 

"Mr. Snappy" is my dog. I sign my posts "RDM."

 

RDM (<-- see?)

I simply posted a picture of her mother and Whinny wearing a costume for Halloween, big deal how can you take a picture and make it my words? How did I BRAG about how much my dogs lines like to wear costumes? I thought it would give some of you a laugh, but apparently not.

 

All the forums I've been to you reply to the poster with their forum name, excuse me RDM.

 

Thank you for all the have replied....

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I guess I don't find breeding "funny." I think it's a pretty serious undertaking, and I think most folks here would agree this is the case. If you showed me a picture of your dog working stock, that would be something relevant to a "should I breed my dog" thread. Your dog in a tutu is not.

 

The breed is in crisis. I'm not kidding about thousands of border collies losing their lives for lack of a home in North America every year, and if anyone is going to breed more of them, they should be doing it for the right reasons. Period.

 

According to Petfinder:

 

Border Collie(s listed): 4070

 

And those are just the ones listed. Lots of shelters don't use petfinder or update it often.

 

RDM

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Originally posted by Whinny:

I wasnt looking for the rudest reply but with that Thank you very much 'MR.SNAPPY'.

RDM makes a very good point that everyone should be sure to read the thread marked "Read this first." You can also do a search in this section, health, and politics for previous threads on the subject of breeding. Passions run very high on this subject, you'll find.

 

Whinny is adorable and I'm sure is a great dog. However, one of the beliefs of this board are that Border Collies should only be bred if they have proven working (herding) ability. No other reason. Not everyone is going to agree with that of course, but this isn't the place to successfuly argue for any other reason to breed.

 

Sorry. I know that isn't the information you were looking for. Please don't take any comments as a slam against your pup. People's main concern here is the breed's future as well as the plight of all the unwanted Border Collies currently out there.

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RDM- There you go again putting words down for me, The picture is suppose to be for FUN, not that I think breeding is funny and not serious, but thanks for that, I'll take it with a grain of salt and move on, thank you.

 

 

I'm not taking them as a slam to my pup, but to me as a person. There are so many other ways to word things and I guess I should have done a look up to get answers instead of posting a topic...I'll do that from now on.

 

Thanks again.

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Whinny, the only reason to breed any dog is if it is absolutely, positively the best at what that breed is supposed to do. Border Collies were bred to work livestock. If your Border Collie happens to win the open division at the USBCHA finals in a few years, then you might consider breeding her. If she turns out to be just another really great obedience dog/agility dog don't bother. There are lots of people breeding O/A dogs.Love your dog, train it, participate in whatever venue you choose. Spay it. If you spay your dog you never have to put off doing something with her just because she is in heat.

 

I don't just feel this way about Border Collies. There are way too many dogs that are allowed to reproduce in this world. I also spay/neuter everything that comes to live at my house.

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Well said Shetlander. (and RDM, again)

 

edit: You asked if you should breed her. We said you shouldn't. But instead of taking that advice you want to ignore our responses to YOUR question and look somewhere else until you get the only response you want to hear - "YES! She is so beautiful - go ahead and breed her if you want!". :rolleyes:

 

You asked we answered - how was that wrong?

It makes me sad to think that you might just go off and breed her no matter what we say. Breeding is about bettering the breed. Until she has been on stock at least once - you are not going to get very happy responses. But please, even if they sound mean, try to at least listen to what we have to say.

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Originally posted by Kat's Dogs:

 

You asked we answered - how was that wrong?

It doesnt make it wrong, just rude in the choice of words...

 

 

Originally posted by Kat's Dogs:

 

 

It makes me sad to think that you might just go off and breed her no matter what we say. Breeding is about bettering the breed.

It makes me sad to see how people in the dog 'world' really are, and I thought horse showing/competeing was a step above and beyond rudeness, now I can tell them where it really is.
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I'm not "putting words down" for you - I responded to a post about should you breed your dog because her colouring is unique and here are some photos of her dressed like a princess. From that, I cannot infer you are a serious candidate for producing serious/quality dogs. You presented the image, I can only respond to what I see and read. You don't have to like how I present it. I sure didn't like how you presented what you did either.

 

Regardless, and back to the issue that you raised, at no time have you addressed any of the issues of overpopulation, working quality, how your dog is breeding worthy etc. Even if you did go out there and bring your dog to some stellar level of herding/trialing that would still not necessarily be justification enough to breed your dog. There are folks on this very board who know more about this breed than I can ever hope to who still don't feel they know enough to produce a litter. They should be a good example for anyone thinking of breeding. If more people focused on the responsibilities within the bigger picture of breeding, a lot of the 4070 border collies I just pointed out to you would not be in the predicament they are in.

 

RDM

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Originally posted by Whinny:

It makes me sad to see how people in the dog 'world' really are, and I thought horse showing/competeing was a step above and beyond rudeness, now I can tell them where it really is.

Sorry, but I'm gonna add another log in the fire.

You are right, horse world could be nicer, but the horse world doesn't have the problems dog world has.

 

Horses are still mainly bred by working habilities, and even when their are shown by conformation purposes it still doen't blind most of the judges. On the other hand, to breed horses are expensive, not everyone can do it and the ones who breed, think it twice. But everyone can have a dog and most of them think that they have the right of god to breed them just because they can.

 

I know, people here can sound rude and I understand you are hurt, but before label them as bad persons, think of them as passionate persons, people who really, really love the breed and people who had seen lots of bad stuff and that, make them harsh.

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Hey Whinny

In all fairness, if you read other threads on this topic, most end up like this. My feeling is this:

If you want to breed your dog you CAN- there is no one stopping you. If you ask for opinions, you will be sure to get them. Since I have just started working my pup (non BC) on sheep, and have completely been awed by ALL the tools she has in her box to work sheep, I am also humbled. Since BC's were bred to work stock, a good thing, if you believe you *may* want to breed her, is to begin her career on stock, and get her health testing done.

Starting in a couple of months, get her on sheep. See if she has what it takes. Then, if you can take lessons from a wise sheep dog person. Spend the first couple of years letting her develop, and then, once you see what you have- trial her occasionally- you may then see if you want to breed her. See, it is so important to know the beauty marks and warts of a dog. That is why so many sheepdogs are bred later in life. She just may be a diamond in the rough, you just need to take the time to see it.

 

Julie

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JRID

ONe thing- winning the open division in the finals is quite an achievement, and getting there is quite a feat- not just work-wise, but financially. There are many many very good handlers who win/place in local and regional trials who can't afford the trip out west for this prestigious event. Frankly, I would rather see someone have consistent success locally and regionally over time, than that glorious finals win. Not to take anything away from the finals- I think just being IN the finals is not shabby.

Julie

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I strongly believe that Border Collies should be bred based on proven working ability, on the ISDS style open trial field, excellent farm work, or both. If your dog is not proven to be up to that standard, then no, I don't think she should be bred. I've been working my first dog on sheep for a little over a year now, and not only is she spayed (ie not an excellent working dog) but I am way too new at this to be able to make impactful breeding decisions. It matters that we have a standard to breed to, and for the border collie that is a working standard.

 

Read This

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Whinny,

I'm sorry you feel everyone is being rude, but perhaps you would have been better prepared for the responses if you had read the "Read this first" thread. It would make clear the culture of this board.

 

That said, I *did* breed my bitch. She's not a special color and she certainly doesn't match a conformation standard. What she is is a great working dog. I don't personally believe that a dog needs to win the national finals to be breedworthy (that would certainly limit the gene pool), but the dog ought to be able to work to a high standard.

 

I was talking with one of my vets the other day, discussing this particular bitch. She asked me to remind her how old she is. She just turned 5. My vet commented that she was "an older bitch." My reply to her was that I had needed to wait until she had proven herself as a worker, and you just can't do that at a very young age. Now some of the true greats in the stockdog world can probably assess a dog at a younger age, but I didn't feel comfortable doing that, so instead I *proved* my dog. She took me (a novice handler) to open before she was three, qualified for the finals each year she's run in open (including for the cattle finals last year--as well as nursery in the years she was eligible), and has had her share of successes on the trial field. She is also my "right-hand man" for all my farm work.

 

I bred her at age 4.5, after she had accomplished enough to let me know she was worthy of breeding. I had a waiting list for pups because people had seen her work and liked what they saw enough to want a pup out of her. I had national-level handlers approach me after the Bluegrass Classic asking for pups (and for her!) thanks to her performance there.

 

I'm not saying all this to brag on my dog but to point out that this is what the people on this list are talking about when they ask why you'd want to breed your dog if she's never even seen stock and you have no desire to do that or haven;t at least thought about the implications of not proving your dog first.

 

As others have pointed out, there are plenty of dogs and pups in rescue. There are already lots of backyard breeders producing pups for no other reason than candy colors or no real reason at all, and there are plenty of folks breeding sport collies too. So it is a valid question to ask you why you think your bitch should be bred if there's nothing about her that makes her a superior working dog.

 

No one can stop you from doing whatever you want, of course, but I'm hoping you'll recognize that there really is a lot more blood, sweat, and tears that goes into ensuring you're bettering the breed for what it's meant to do (work stock) than just having a dog you love.

 

J.

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Whinny, I'm not going to go over all the other excellent responses about breeding your pup.

I am going to ask you to take a look at ALL the BC rescue sites just listed here...AND then, ask yourself WHY you would want to potentially add to that problem.

RDM is just one of many rescuers on this site, who are under constant pressure to take 'just one more' of unwanted BC's out there - from pups to seniors. AND LOTS ARE DOOMED TO DIE - because there is no room.

So, rather than breed your pup, have her spayed and enjoy her for a good number of years. And when you get the urge for puppy breath, just look at the rescues...and take one into your heart.

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