Jump to content
BC Boards
Sign in to follow this  
wein

Confinement for Dysplasia

Recommended Posts

Here's the deal Bill. You are welcome to interpret those studies any way you like. They are what they are. I'm not a "true believer" or "defender" of any of these hip evaluation schemes. I'm just trying to determine what they are, what they aren't and their usefulness. I've spent over ten years reviewing the literature, gathering data, and talking to people. I put quite a bit of effort into this in order to develop, and continue to develop, a broad, objective and balanced view on this subject.

 

My goal in those above posts was to provide DOCUMENTED information. Apparently that's not as good to you as undocumented information and opinions, and anecdotal information. I intend to continue to provide other documented information on the topics you suggested as I have time and can summarize them carefully and accurately. You are welcome to then apply your expertise at interpreting them for everyone. However, I see no point in discussing any of it with you because you are never wrong about anything no matter what lengths you have to go to to prove it and I have no time for that.

 

Denise

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now when looking for a dog I do not want AKC dog and I don't look for the OFA and CERF ratings unless the breed I am looking at is at higher risk, ie: you here the breed is known for it and even then I don't pay too much attention. And I don't go for looks. I want a dog with work ethic and drive. I want a dog I can bond with. Ok bonding with acd's is not easy. I want a good dog basically with a nice temperament.

 

My australian cattledog comes off a working farm. She is high drive and needs a job (and I wish I could provide a better job). Her lines are not AKC, are not OFA tested and are not CERF tested. 90% of people would consider her breeder as a backyard breeder. I consider him a breeder of good dogs. Foster has minimal problems and excellent hips, thankfully. He breeds carefully and knows his cattledogs and the breed in general. I would go back to him again in a heart beat for another acd. He breeds for ability and temperament, NOT looks.

 

I do flyball so I choose to xray my dogs hips at a young age and then again when they are 2. I had Foster's hips done and our vets rated them as excellent. I took what they said with a grain of salt because of the fact that vets are never 100% correct. My vets are great and I did believe her hips were good but that is it. Now Foster had a very bad/ugly collision during flyball practice. Luckily, she is a well put together dog and luckily her hips were good because she was twisted in a very ugly way while one leg was planted so her hip and knee were both twisted in a very unnatural way. But because she in as good as she is, there was not a significant injury. Maybe with bad hips this incident could have destroyed her hips but it did not.

 

Now a couple weeks ago I had to take Foster to an ortho specialist for a possible ACL tear. I took all her xrays including her hips. No ACL tear was noted but the vet looked at her hips for me. He also said that her hips were excellent.

 

The reason behind this story is the fact that Foster has a quirky step when she trots that many say is indicative of what dogs with hip dysplasia have...When she was young I used to worry about it because it is not natural looking. But her hips, knees, back were all fine. The vets said that might just be her quirk and not to worry about it. When Foster runs full out, you cannot see this quirky step and others say when she runs it is in a very horse-like way with minimal effort. She runs in an efficient manner.

 

Moral of this story is: just because a dog has a strange quirky step, you can't assume he/she has hip problems. And if the dog really does have problems, keep up your daily activites and let the dog enjoy life. The dog will stop when it becomes too painful.

 

And don't take all these "ratings" to heart. They should only be used as a basis and not actual fact.

 

Hope this makes sense...I am extremely tired (insomnia sucks)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest PrairieFire

Denise -

 

Sorry you seem to have lost your temper...but it is YOUR studies that I am quoting...

 

According to the studies you posted - either one or two of the three radiologists gave a wrong rating to a dog in 1 case out of 4...that's how many ten's of thousands of dogs given a wrong rating?

 

And not just slightly wrong - but 2 ratings out of a ladder of 4 - enough to kick a dog with excellent hips into the questionable category or to kick a dog with rotten hips into the "good" category...

 

It is the study you posted that used the phrase - "the subjective nature of the evaluation"...

 

Denise - that isn't anecdotal information - THAT IS THE INFORMATION YOU POSTED.

 

The information you call "documented".

 

Is quoting your documented evidence "going to any lengths" to prove my point?

 

Sorry, I thought that was the scientific process.

 

You are right, the studies "are what they are" - if they provide value to my position rather than yours, I suppose it would be a good idea, from your standpoint, not to discuss it...

 

As I said in several posts, I respect your work and that of the ABCA Genetics Committee - but I question the emphasis, just in the last year or so, on hip ratings as provided by the OFA...

 

That doesn't make me a 'heathen', except to a true beleiver...it makes me interested in the truth.

 

So from my standpoint, that's "the deal".

 

I feel badly that simply interpreting the data in a way different from you makes me your enemy and worthy of your disdain...

 

But I guess that is the problem with questioning established dogma.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Jes - If I offended you, I think I must not have been clear - I was only using your expereince as how people WILL take the entire process as gospel - which you obviously haven't...I think your experinces are probably typical - with different ratings from different people on different days"

 

Of course you didn't offend me. I just wanted to make sure it was clear I was not stating that these particular working lines were producing any high percentage of dysplastic dogs. At least not that I am aware of. I do think you get "different ratings from different people on different days." I know of two people who have stated that they took dogs in for numerous x-rays until they got a result that would OFA. In my dogs case I called the orthopedic surgeon I was referred to for my pup and he stated that CHD was not that common in Border Collies and that one hip affected was almost never seen. This is a statement that I have found to be untrue. I have now heard of several Border Collies with only 1 bad hip in my area. This same ortho did a 2nd x-ray on another Border Collie who was x-rayed the same time as my dog by the same vet (and found to be dysplastic in one hip also) and the ortho determined this dog to have excellent hips. Why so many varying diagnoses?

JES.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I read what Denise posted from the OFA website regarding the consistency of the OFA evaluations, it says that in a study of 1.8 million dog evaluations, 94.9% of the time there was agreement among all three radiologists as to whether the dog was normal (Excellent, Good or Fair), Borderline, or dysplastic (Mild, Moderate or Severe). With regard to the seven capitalized rating categories:

 

73.5% of the time all three radiologists on the panel agreed on the rating.

 

21% of time time two radiologists agreed and the third was within one hip grade of the other two.

 

5.4% of the time two radiologists agreed and the third was within two hip grades of the other two.

 

Is that correct, Denise? That accounts for 99.9% of the evaluations, and does seem to be pretty high consistency.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Eileen, that is correct. That 95% reliability for normal vs abnormal is within the two standard deviations accepted by laboratory medicine. This is the criteria used for most accepted testing procedures.

 

As to the final hip rating ratings when the agreement is not perfect from all three radiologists- from the OFA site http://www.offa.org/hdgrade.html :

 

How Hips are Graded

 

The phenotypic evaluation of hips done by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals falls into seven different categories. Those categories are Excellent, Good, Fair, Borderline, Mild, Moderate, Severe. Below is an in depth at each of these classifications and what they mean [not included here by me].

 

Once each of the radiologists classifies the hip into one of the 7 phenotypes above, the final hip grade is decided by a consensus of the 3 independent outside evaluations. Examples would be:

Two radiologist reported excellent, one good--the final grade would be excellent

One radiologist reported excellent, one good, one fair--the final grade would be good

One radiologist reported fair, two radiologists reported mild--the final grade would be mild

 

****************

 

Reliability of ratings on repeat x-rays can be gleaned somewhat from the below study. My summary and other comments follow the abstract.

 

***************

 

J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Nov 1;211(9):1142-6

 

Comment in:

J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1998 Feb 15;212(4):487-8.

 

Reliability of early radiographic evaluations for canine hip dysplasia obtained from the standard ventrodorsal radiographic projection.

 

Corley EA, Keller GG, Lattimer JC, Ellersieck MR.

 

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, Columbia, MO 65201, USA.

 

OBJECTIVE: To determine reliability of preliminary evaluations for canine hip dysplasia (CHD) performed by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals on dogs between 3 and 18 months of age. DESIGN: Retrospective analysis of data from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals database. ANIMALS: 2,332 Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, German Shepherd Dogs, and Rottweilers for which preliminary evaluation had been performed between 3 and 18 months of age and for which results of a definitive evaluation performed after 24 months of age were available. PROCEDURE: Each radiograph was evaluated, and hip joint status was graded as excellent, good, fair, or borderline phenotype or mild, moderate, or severe dysplasia. Preliminary evaluations were performed by 1 radiologist; definitive evaluations were the consensus of 3 radiologists. Reliability of preliminary evaluations was calculated as the percentage of definitive evaluations (normal vs dysplastic) that were unchanged from preliminary evaluations. RESULTS: Reliability of a preliminary evaluation of normal hip joint phenotype decreased significantly as the preliminary evaluation changed from excellent (100%) to good (97.9%) to fair (76.9%) phenotype. Reliability of a preliminary evaluation of CHD increased significantly as the preliminary evaluation changed from mild (84.4%) to moderate (97.4%) CHD. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased significantly as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal phenotype or CHD. CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS: Results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair phenotype of mild CHD should be reevaluated after 24 months of age.

 

**********

 

This study is actually to evaluate reliability of preliminary x-rays on young dogs when compared with the two years or older final results. The overall reliability is 90% (not reported in this abstract) for x-rays taken from age four months to 23 months when compared with the over 24 month ones. Percentages for the different ratings show greater reliability at the extremes of hip conformation, that is, the better or worse the hips, the less the chance of a different rating at age two or greater.

 

Although this study is slightly different than submitting the same dog's x-rays taken two different times (but at the same approximate age) and evaluated by different radiologists, it suggests reliability for this would be at least 90% or greater.

 

It is certainly true that x-raying vets can try to manipulate the hips for a more favorable appearance on x-ray films or show differences from vet to vet in effective postioning techniques. Even though there are fairly stringent positioning criteria for acceptance of OFA films, some of these purposely manipulated or ineffectively positioned hip x-rays will still be within the range of acceptability by OFA for grading and may cause some minor differences in ratings (usually only one grade). As well, the use or not of anesthesia can sometimes affect ratings due to differences in laxity demonstrated when the x-ray is taken. However, it is the middle ranges that are more likely to be affected by these factors and cause lack of agreement from one x-ray, x-rayer, and reviewer to the next. As in the study above, the reliability at the bad and good ends of range of hip conformation would be expected to be very good, despite any variables. In other words, it is difficult to make truly bad hips look better than they are or very good hips look worse than they are. This is also true for the effects of environmental factors. It is generally accepted that environmental factors can only influence expression by changing the hip grading one or possibly two ratings. Therefore, you will not make a dog with the genes to be severely dysplastic pass OFA by feeding and exercising it correctly as a puppy. Likewise, you will not make a dog with the genes to be OFA excellent dysplastic by feeding and exercising it incorrectly.

 

Denise

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to only just now be getting this better analysis and these references up. I've been lambing.

 

Here are the final compiled figures from these five studies of various crosses resulting in data from 1,712 total progeny. It looks like most, if not all, of these dogs were German Shepherds, a breed with a high incidence of HD. A high carrier rate would be likely, hence the high incidence of HD even in the Normal times Normal crosses.

 

Normal X Normal = 74.6% Normal progeny (25.4% Dysplastic)

 

Normal X Dysplastic = 51.6% Normal progeny (48.4% Dysplastic)

 

Dysplastic X Dysplastic = 13.2% Normal (86.8% Dysplastic)

 

 

References:

 

Snaveley, J. G. 1959. Genetic Aspects of hip dysplasia in dogs. J. Am. Vet. Med. Ass. 135:201-7.

 

Bornfors, S., Palsson, K. and Skude, G. 1964. Hereditary aspects of hip dysplasia in German Shepherd Dogs. J. Am. Vet. Med. Ass. 145:15-20.

 

Riser, W.H., Cohen, D., Linguist, S., Mansson, J. and Cheb, S. 1964. Influence of early rapid growth and weight gain on hip dysplasia on the German Shepherd Dog. J. Am. Vet. Med. Ass. 145:661-8.

 

Kaman, C. H. and Gossling, H. R. 1967. A breeding program to reduce hip dysplasia in German Shepherd Dogs. J. Am. Vet. Med. Ass. 151:562-71.

 

Henricson, B., Norberg, I. and Olsson, S. E. 1966. On the aetiology and pathogenesis of hip dysplasia. J. small Anim. Pract. 7:673-88.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Denise,

 

You'll get no argument from me that hip disease is a major problem in the German Shepherd breed. I look at the skeleton as a sort of chain, and in GSDs, the back end is the weak link. Big broad chests and heads, powerful front legs, and a hind end that belongs on a dog half it size.

 

It would be remarkable to me if there weren't a fair bit of disease in the hips in those dogs.

 

What I feel is missing from the abstracts I've read (can't claim to have read the studies) is analysis of function. This is understandable, because it's subjective on two levels: does the dog express pain, and does the observer recognize it. Following dogs from cradle to grave would also interest me a great deal.

 

It seems that studies are self-referential, and as such, not all that persuasive because they don't look at whether this condition that they label as CHD causes disease or reduced function. Again, it would be noteworthy if the breeding of dogs hips with a certain conformation *didn't* produce a high percentage of offspring with that conformation.

 

The question that needs to be asked is whether this hip conformation that has been called Canine Hip Dysplasia is a disease in and of itself. Currently, the veterinary profession generally treats it as such. But by your observations and mine it doesn't usually doesn't cause disease -- at least in Border collies -- if we define disease as the expression of symptoms that interfere with normal function.

 

This, to me, is the disconnect between the real world and the veterinary profession. And unfortunately, the issue sometimes takes on the dimensions of a witch hunt. Breeders are blamed for producing pups with this "disease" and puppy buyers either want their money back, or for the breeder to pay for the surgery that the vet says is needed right away if the dog is to walk or even live past age two.

 

(In fairness, many vets may not actually say these things, but puppy owners tend to hear them.)

 

This whole thing started because I urged someone to get a second opinion before having highly invasive surgery performed on a very young pup that had been diagnosed with a condition that produces disease (at least disease by my definition) in one third of the dogs that have it.

 

I remain skeptical of the diagnosis of CHD in pups that are seven months old. Perhaps they have the conformation that sometimes leads to CHD, but I would be very surprised to see bilateral osteoarthritis and joint remodeling in a seven month old pup. I'm not saying it doesn't happen; I'm just saying that I think vets need to be more careful about what they diagnose and educate themselves and their clients about the disease and its real world effects. There are enough dogs out there that are functioning on hips that shouldn't work to make me wonder.

 

I still think that far too many hip surgeries are done on pups and young dogs, and that in many cases the risks and trauma associated with the "cure" may be far worse than the "disease."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But by your observations and mine it doesn't usually doesn't cause disease -- at least in Border collies -- if we define disease as the expression of symptoms that interfere with normal function.>>>

 

I think we need to define what we are talking about here. If you are saying borderline dysplasia doesn't necessarily interfere with normal function- I'd tend to agree with the caveat that it may put the dog at a higher risk for arthritis- something that is a fact of life for many older dogs. But moderate to severe dysplasia does commonly have symptoms and does affect normal function for the average household pet. These dogs cannot function normally with low expectations of athleticism, let alone handle the work load of a working border collie. These are the dogs I see reccommended for surgery- not borderline dogs, but already symptomatic dogs.

 

Does anyone know an older, severely dysplastic Border Collie that is still able to work daily, in comfort?

 

This, to me, is the disconnect between the real world and the veterinary profession. And unfortunately, the issue sometimes takes on the dimensions of a witch hunt. Breeders are blamed for producing pups with this "disease" and puppy buyers either want their money back, or for the breeder to pay for the surgery that the vet says is needed right away if the dog is to walk or even live past age two.>>>Bill

 

I don't think the breeder should have to pay for the surgery, but I do think its responsible to refund the price- but thats between the buyer and seller. I agree that there can be a witch hunt phenomena, $#(*$* happens, and I have seen it first hand where all the precautions were done but a crippled pup (in this case not dysplastic, but with other issues) was still produced.

 

 

I remain skeptical of the diagnosis of CHD in pups that are seven months old. Perhaps they have the conformation that sometimes leads to CHD, but I would be very surprised to see bilateral osteoarthritis and joint remodeling in a seven month old pup.>>Bill

 

You would be surprised, because the whole point of doing the surgery in a young pup is because you can do the easier (on the dog and the owner) surgery at that time to prevent those problems. This is not a "conformation" issue, its a defect issue- one that is easily seen with a minimum of explanation of what normal hip joints should look like. There will still be symptoms but as long as there are not major joint changes, they can do the TPO. After those changes occur, surgery becomes a much more invasive and complex thing.

 

There are enough dogs out there that are functioning on hips that shouldn't work to make me wonder.>>

 

So you personally know dogs that are severely dysplastic and are working?

 

 

I still think that far too many hip surgeries are done on pups and young dogs, and that in many cases the risks and trauma associated with the "cure" may be far worse than the "disease.">>

 

I think you are grossly over estimating the risks associated with surgery. In over 7 years in the vet business, I have seen two young animals die during non-catastrophic (ie, not related to a major accident) surgery- both were cats having ace/keto reactions. I also know that most docs will require a pre-op on orthopedic surgeries- which would eliminate many of the complications that can occur if there is an underlying problem. The trauma of a TPO is nothing compared to the trauma of a total hip replacement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaime,

 

Yes I do know dogs that are dysplastic by radiographic diagnosis (I don't know how dysplastic) that are working and in fact winning trials at the highest levels. I don't want to name names because of the witch-hunt aspect of things, so you'll have to trust me. But I think anyone who is involved in this issue will know of examples. Perhaps more importantly, these dysplastic dogs have produced offspring that are winners as well.

 

The definination for hip dysplasia I am aware of is bilateral osteoarthritis with joint remodeling by age two. What are vets seeing at seven months that makes them say a pup has this condition?

 

The statistics that Denise and others have shared indicate that one in three dysplastic Border collies will show symptoms. I'm surprised that it's that high, because it would mean that about 8 percent of the breed would be showing symptoms of hip joint pain, and I don't see that. But I'm willing to accept that I don't see lots of dogs that would be more likely to be suffering from HD than the working dogs.

 

In any event if we assume that 25 percent of the breed is dysplastic by OFA standards, and that a just third of these dogs would show symptoms, that means that 16 dogs out of 100 that would be able to live normal lives will have hips that the OFA would condemn, and on which some vets would want to operate to "correct" the problem.

 

That's an incredibly high rate of needless surgery in my opinion.

 

I think there's a need to look at the genetic well-being of the breed by assessing its function, not X-rays. X-rays are looking at a conformation (and I don't mean that in the pejoritive sense) of the hip joint that is linked to degenerative joint disease. They are not looking at function.

 

I could probably develop a valid statistical link between blue eyes in humans and sunburn. Does that mean that blue eyes cause sunburn? No. It means that people with lighter skin complexions are more likey to have blue eyes and lighter complexions burn easier.

 

I think the link between the hip joint conformation and degenerative joint disease is qualitatively different from the link between blue eyes and sunburn, but there's an analogy there. Just because a condition predisposes one to disease doesn't mean that disease is present. Asymptomatic dysplastic dogs are the proof of that.

 

Whether this line of thinking would extend to other breeds of dogs, I don't know. I suspect not. We all know that Border collies are not built like everyday dogs, and they come from hundreds of years of selection for function. Perhaps more importantly they haven't been selected for reasons other than function very often. That means they are probably more likely to function than other breeds of dog, all things being equal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaime,

 

Yes I do know dogs that are dysplastic by radiographic diagnosis (I don't know how dysplastic) that are working and in fact winning trials at the highest levels.>>Bill

 

 

But you don't know how dysplastic- that the point. If these surgeries are recommended for moderately to severely dysplastic dogs- as I've seen that it is- then the relevency of what might be severely dysplastic dogs, but then again might not be is questionable. Again, these surgeries are usually (in my experience) recommended for dogs already exhibiting symptoms- dogs that do not work and have a very "easy" life. I don't think a vet (at least not a good one) would recommend a surgery for a working dog, dysplastic or not, that exhibits no or mild symptoms of the disease.

 

I don't want to name names because of the witch-hunt aspect of things, so you'll have to trust me. But I think anyone who is involved in this issue will know of examples. Perhaps more importantly, these dysplastic dogs have produced offspring that are winners as well.>>>

 

I don't expect names to be named. But again, if you don't even know what the degree is of the condition- moderate, severe, borderline covers a pretty broad range.

 

 

 

The definination for hip dysplasia I am aware of is bilateral osteoarthritis with joint remodeling by age two. What are vets seeing at seven months that makes them say a pup has this condition?>>

 

The definition of hip dysplasia is concerned with how the ball fits into the joint. It can cause arthritis, but the arthritis is a symptom of the condition, it is not the definition of hip dysplasia. These pups are diagnosed based on how their hip joint is put together. In some of these pups, the ball isn't even in there, it couldn't cause arthritis in the joint but it will cause severe pain floating around.

 

The statistics that Denise and others have shared indicate that one in three dysplastic Border collies will show symptoms. I'm surprised that it's that high, because it would mean that about 8 percent of the breed would be showing symptoms of hip joint pain, and I don't see that. But I'm willing to accept that I don't see lots of dogs that would be more likely to be suffering from HD than the working dogs.>>Bill

 

That I can understand. I don't see 8% of the breed exhibiting symptoms, but the Border Collies I see, mostly, are well bred working dogs- many with hip checked parents.

 

In any event if we assume that 25 percent of the breed is dysplastic by OFA standards, and that a just third of these dogs would show symptoms, that means that 16 dogs out of 100 that would be able to live normal lives will have hips that the OFA would condemn, and on which some vets would want to operate to "correct" the problem.

 

That's an incredibly high rate of needless surgery in my opinion.>>>Bill

 

You are assuming that the dogs are symptomatic enough to require surgery. I have seen that dogs with mild symptoms in good condition are not recommended for surgery but for NSAID therapy as needed. Before this question of whether these surgeries are excessively done can be settled, we need to know how many dogs are getting surgery and what their condition was before they were recommended for it.

 

 

I think there's a need to look at the genetic well-being of the breed by assessing its function, not X-rays. X-rays are looking at a conformation (and I don't mean that in the pejoritive sense) of the hip joint that is linked to degenerative joint disease. They are not looking at function.>>Bill

 

But a diagnosis is made by a vet who can see the dog in person- so function, or at least the present condition of the dog, along with its symptoms or lack thereof IS evaluated along with the x-rays.

 

 

I think the link between the hip joint conformation and degenerative joint disease is qualitatively different from the link between blue eyes and sunburn, but there's an analogy there. Just because a condition predisposes one to disease doesn't mean that disease is present. Asymptomatic dysplastic dogs are the proof of that.>>>Bill

 

If the dog is asymptomatic, it should not have surgery- unless the defect is so obvious that the dog will not get away with being asymptomatic for long. I have never seen, and I guess I can't repeat this enough :rolleyes: , a dog that has been recommended for surgery that did not have an obvious defect of the hip joint AND was not exhibiting symptoms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Denise,

A very interesting read, thank you for taking all the time to post that stuff. Hope your lambing is going well, and keep up all the good work! See you at Nancys, Best, Sam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just wanted to jump in here. I have an 8 year old dysplastic Border Collie. I had her xrayed when she was 4 ONLY because we'd gone to Maine and after being thrown against rocks in the ocean she was limping...and it never stopped. Now, up until that point, the only thing that gave me pause was the fact that a)she didn't seem to jump quite as high as other Border Collies (though at 4 months she scaled a 4ft baby gate with ease)and b)she tired quickly in high heat, and c)she hated having her hind end touched. All of which could have been contributed to by other things. One being basic bitchiness on her part until I got the second dog. It has only been in the past year that I've seen her have problems with things like getting on the bed (which is a HIGH antique)or getting up on her back legs to look out windows. It is also only in this past year that I've noticed a significant loss in hip musculature. I should add that she was also diagnosed with arthritis at the same time.

 

Now...when we x-rayed Marengo (at four) her hips were so bad that they (to me) looked barely in the socket. They were also rubbed completely flat on the insides. There was only 1 questionable dog in Marengo's lineage. I haven't heard of any displasia from her breeder since. Would Marengo be able to herd sheep, yes...would she have the stamina to do it for long periods of time (hours) not without rest. But, she can play frisbee for hours with 5 second rests between throws.

 

Now, all that said...I'm not really a firm believer in the tests. I don't give a crap if the dog has excellent or "good" (because it's a rare occasion I've heard of dogs with "excellent" hips)hips. What good is THAT in determining whether or not my dog will come away without it? I have a dog with dysplasia from "good" dogs.

 

Those studies only left me with questions..except for the last one that was posted. What breeds of dogs? Were the breeds of dogs consistent from study to study? Were the people performing the tests on the dogs consistent? Did they have the same education, the same experience? And if ONE person dubs a dog "fair", instead of good like the other two...by god then I don't want a pup out of that dog. Show me that that dog was able to work pain free until it was 8,9,10..then we'll talk. Do we HAVE 3 people doing the tests on regular dogs? NO...of course not. What if my breeder went to the guy who was wrong? What if the next persons test consists of subjects that aren't notorius for dysplasia, will they find the same results? Highly unlikely. Studies mean squat to me...and I have a degree in a field (psych)that does a heck of a lot of studies. Just because a group of people say that they found it "significant" doesn't mean the next people who do a test will. Look at the mess they make of human health..fat is bad, fat is good, cut out carbs, lose weight...eat carbs lose weight...it's all crap...just like intelligence tests studies done on white kids in the suburbs are useless for the minorities in the cities...studies done on a breed that isn't the one you're looking at should all be read with a degree of skepticism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill F.,

 

I'm not going to comment on the too many dogs getting surgery part because I think Jamie has covered it very well. My advice to people would be the same advice for any other medical condition in animals or humans - educate yourself about the problem and find a medical professional you can trust.

 

>It seems that studies are self-referential, and as such, not all that persuasive because they don't look at whether this condition that they label as CHD causes disease or reduced function. Again, it would be noteworthy if the breeding of dogs hips with a certain conformation *didn't* produce a high percentage of offspring with that conformation.<

 

One reason I put those references up is for some reason people still seem to be questioning that HD is a heritable condition. There are a gazillion references showing the heritability of HD in terms of a heritability factor, usually around 0.25 - 0.3. Clearly it is heritable, but not highly heritable, that is there are environmental influences affecting the expression of the HD genes. However, since it is generally accepted that the incidence of a genetic disease can be influenced by selective breeding when the heritability is greater than 0.20, progress should be possible using the tools we have. There are many studies in various breeds showing this progress using these tools.

 

I posted the crosses studies because I thought they were a powerful statement concerning the odds. I don't expect the stats would be the same numbers in Border Collies but I think the trend would be.

 

>The question that needs to be asked is whether this hip conformation that has been called Canine Hip Dysplasia is a disease in and of itself. Currently, the veterinary profession generally treats it as such. But by your observations and mine it doesn't usually doesn't cause disease -- at least in Border collies -- if we define disease as the expression of symptoms that interfere with normal function.<

 

It is not my observation that it doesn't usually cause disease. See below.

 

I think if we're going say work proves the dog then we should use the same criteria for "asymptomatic". You and I have agreed, I believe, on a definition of a dog who can do a normal day's work up to the age of around eight years without showing symptoms of HD. Not dogs who are basically pets or doing little work. I think the percentage of HD dogs who would actually be considered asymptomatic under true work conditions would drop dramatically using that criteria even in your observations.

 

And to that end, if that's the only way you approve of to prove sound hips, good x-rays or not, then how do you suggest we prove hips on dogs who do less?

 

>I remain skeptical of the diagnosis of CHD in pups that are seven months old. Perhaps they have the conformation that sometimes leads to CHD, but I would be very surprised to see bilateral osteoarthritis and joint remodeling in a seven month old pup. I'm not saying it doesn't happen; I'm just saying that I think vets need to be more careful about what they diagnose and educate themselves and their clients about the disease and its real world effects. There are enough dogs out there that are functioning on hips that shouldn't work to make me wonder.<

 

I've seen x-rays of seven month old pups where the dog barely has any socket left. I think if you could see these x-rays you would not question that the hips were bad and time was not going to help that.

 

Bill, I think you know I have great respect for you, but I think you should spend some time educating yourself as to what all these HD hip conformations are and look like that you're so convinced don't really cause disease. The information is out there and readily accessible. Find, or I will be happy to loan you, such recent texts as "Hereditary Bone and Joint Diseases in the Dog: Osteochondrosis, Hip dysplasia, Elbow dysplasia. Morgan, Wind and Davidson. Hannover:Schlutersche, 2000. There, I think you can find what you need to answer your questions.

 

>The definination for hip dysplasia I am aware of is bilateral osteoarthritis with joint remodeling by age two. What are vets seeing at seven months that makes them say a pup has this condition?<

 

Literally, hip dysplasia means "badly formed hip". In unaffected dogs there is a good fit between ball and socket. In affected dogs there is a bad fit. A bad fit is not a good thing.

 

>The statistics that Denise and others have shared indicate that one in three dysplastic Border collies will show symptoms. I'm surprised that it's that high, because it would mean that about 8 percent of the breed would be showing symptoms of hip joint pain, and I don't see that. But I'm willing to accept that I don't see lots of dogs that would be more likely to be suffering from HD than the working dogs.<

 

This is exactly what I wrote:

 

"Those who hip screen large numbers of one to three year old working bred Border Collies have told me the one in four estimate agrees with what they see. They also estimate that only about one in three of those diagnosed with HD by x-ray will show symptoms AT THAT TIME. "

 

AT THAT TIME. These same people also tell me that they no longer find it cost effective to try to train these HD affected asymptomatic dogs because of later complaints or returns for lameness. They usually get given away as pets.

 

These are not stats from a formal study. It's merely information I've been working on gathering over the years to follow various conditions through generations of pedigrees. It is quite a few dogs but it's not thousands so take it with a grain of salt. I am still gathering data however.

 

The disease does not always present itself the same in terms of when in the dog's life it starts becomes worse, or remits. There can be periods of time when the diseased joint tries to stabilize and may cause little to no pain for a time followed by periods of pain and lameness. Minor injury may tip the scale. That a dog diagnosed with HD is not lame at the time the x-ray is taken does not mean it has never been lame or will not go lame during it's useful life.

 

>Whether this line of thinking would extend to other breeds of dogs, I don't know. I suspect not. We all know that Border collies are not built like everyday dogs, and they come from hundreds of years of selection for function. Perhaps more importantly they haven't been selected for reasons other than function very often. That means they are probably more likely to function than other breeds of dog, all things being equal.<

 

Anyone still willing to subject themselves to more of this is welcome to go to http://www.stilhope.com/hipartical.htm and read an article I wrote on my breed specific ideas for HD. I, too, believe Border Collies are different than the average dog. But they do not transcend the laws of physiology. Most of the conformational abnormalities detected in the hips of dogs diagnosed with HD are the result of degenerative joint disease. Degenerative joint disease is not normal.

 

I think I'm done with this folks. Aside from one comment, thanks Sam , I've had no indication that anyone has gotten anything positive or informative out of what I'm posting.

 

Good luck on your decisions.

 

Denise

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, steadily reading away...Just because I usually remain in lurk mode doesnt mean I dont read everything and I for one appreciate the access to good information. Thanks again!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Denise,

 

Just because I still have questions doesn't mean I don't appreciate the information you've posted.

 

Jaime's response gives me hope that my experience with a few vets that seem to love their bone saws is abnormal. Perhaps knowing that I am concerned about it means that people with a bad experience seek me out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do have a question. Are the studies on border collies from WORKING or AKC show border collies? Have they found more incidence in one over the other? This is just idle curiosity. It would be interesting to find out if one group is more likely to have hip problems than the other.

 

If this has been covered sorry, I have tried to keep on this posting but it gets a little confusing at times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest PrairieFire

Denise, I too appreciate the information...

 

But, regardless of the tests, clinical studies, etc., it still comes down to the bottom line -

 

One could breed any two dogs of any two ratings and have a full litter of severely dysplastic dogs or dogs with no sign of dysplasia at all.

 

We could argue about how individual dogs deal with various levels of dysplasia, and just how "loose" a tolerance a working dog needs in its joints to function, and so on...but statistically, the above can happen - and anecdotally, has...

 

I don't think anyone on this thread has suggested that no testing be done and that complete disregard be shown for hip structure - I have heard folks say that the emphasis needs to be tempered with many other things - and I would add this to the bottom line...

 

Until a genetic test is developed that can predict the genetic dispersal of CHD, the predictive value of current technology is incomplete...perhaps valuable...but incomplete - and the primary purpose for breeding the dogs should be "the work"...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking last night what a useful, thoughtful discussion this has evolved into. Thank you Denise, Bill F., and Jaime!

 

--Eileen

 

"The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet." --Damon Runyon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Denise, I?m sure there are many like me who have been reading through this material but remaining in lurk mode. I certainly appreciate the time and effort you put into supplying us with informative and authoritative references and material on this and other topics. I am not a breeder, nor a herder, but I did make sure my pups came from hip assessed stock in the hope of doing the best I can to ensure I have dogs who will be able to compete safely in my dog sports over many years. I know ?good-hipped? ancestors are no guarantee, but it?s got to be worth a try. Thank you again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...