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Pedigrees - NZ/AU Show Lines in ABCA?

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Well, if and when the AKC ever closes their stud books, 9as we working border collie people have been praying for them to do for sooo long!) you'll have a completely closed gene pool to register your pups in.

 

Personally, I couldn't care less whether Turnbull's Blue was in fact blue, three legged, bearded, had a mustache, or wore a swim suit. If he could work to the level to be ROM'd in either the ISDS OR the ABCA- I'd welcome him and his offspring. Having a great-granddaughter of the first ROM'd dog, and being personally acquainted with five of the six pups since birth from that breeding, I can say I am all for the ROM program. Penny Tose's Emily has produced two pups that were multiple national Finals qualifiers...(oh, and one was the Reserve Nursery Champion), open trial dogs in the second generation and a nursery final quailifer, as well as some nice young working dogs in the third generation. It would have been a crying shame to lose Emily's bloodlines, simply because she did not have papers originally.

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Would it be fair to say that a ROM registered dog has had to produce a far higher quality of the work then many if not most that have papers and in all reality it could be that when bred to the right mate will actually produce more top quality dogs then dogs that are mated from long time registered lines. If only each registered dog was required to prove themselves like the ROM'd dogs...

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Dear Doggers,

 

One of my farmer students has a terrific two year old male off a good working sire and dam who were supposed to be ABCA registered but when the buyer asked for the papers said, "Papers are meaningless" and stopped returning calls. My student asked how he could get his dog - which I'd take in a heartbeat - registered on merit. I told him, probably he couldn't. The hurdles are - rightly - very high.

 

My student's ready to enter novice/novice with the dog. So figure four years or so until the dog is running in open. Then, the dog must place in the top ten percent of three National (big) open ISDS or USBCHA trials. Even if the handler is extremely gifted, that's not easy. Let's see - so far this year, my June came 14th at Rural Hill - 8th place would have made the top 10%. And June's made the semifinals at the Nationals and run in the World Trial.

 

Absent trial accomplishment, the dog must be evaluated by three ABCA Directors who must feel that the dog is not only a good representative of the breed but an exceptional representative. There's considerable paperwork, video must be provided and trial wins or evaluations apart, 11 of the 12 ABCA directors must approve the dog.

 

I told my student that the only realistic way to get his dog ROM'd was to turn it over to a top handler and pay board, entry and training fees. I figured a pro could/might ROM this very nice young dog by the age of 6 - if its owner could pay the bills.

 

On second thought . . .

 

Donald McCaig

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At least up here in Canada it is illegal to withhold registration papers on a dog you have sold as purebred. Under the APA, the owner/breeder must provide the purchaser with the registration papers (at their expense, not the purchaser), within six months of purchase.

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Liz P, It was my understanding that BEARDED COLLIES were an altogether different physical and working type from the "Cumberland Sheepdog" type, and other "SILENT" "EYE" "CROUCHING" sheepdogs that were the predesessors of the Border Collie. Bearded Collies had an upright working posture, very little to no "EYE", and gave voice. This is not like the Border Collies I am interested in. It is my opinion that Bearded Border Collie are only a throwback to Bearded Collie crosses that were introduced to the Border Collie lines. I am not interested in "BEARDS" nor the bloodline in which they come from.

 

Dear Sir ~

 

Of course you are welcome to your preferences, just as some of us prefer rough coat over smooth, prick ears over tipped, etc. But I am pretty sure that the bearded border collie is as old as the BC breed, and rather than a throwback, he's more like a very close cousin.

 

He is not to be confused with the "Bearded Collie" seen in the United States, who have the tremendous long coats, and the bounce and bark that you describe, with little or no stock sense. At any rate, the "collie" breed types we know today were not fixed until the last 150 years or so, so there's any manner of shared heritage between border collies and other working breeds, back there in the mists of time.

 

From what I've seen, a bearded collie type is present in the painted and photographic record well back to the 1800's, seen side-by-side with the border collie and his ancestors. However, this dog pre-dates the Bearded Collie of today, which was apparently resurrected from near-extinction after WW II. I presume this wire-haired fellow is the dog, or at least his descendants, seen in the ISDS breed book, and there's reason to suppose this bearded border collie shares considerable kinship with the BC.

 

So, if anything, today's Bearded Collie comes from a much older wire-haired border collie type, and not any down-breeding the other way.

 

I've never met a bearded border collie in person, but I've seen photos of them and corresponded with folks who own them, and by all reports, they work and act very much like a border collie, except with a wirey coat. I don't think there are a lot of them in the US, but I believe there's at least one, James, who ran at National Finals. In all his photos, he crouched and showed the same "eye" as his BC relations.

 

Granted, I'm with you, in that I don't want the bearded look nor would I breed to one. But I'd wager they are of the same gene pool from which our BCs came, and probably were interbred right up until very recent times. Who knows, in the UK, maybe the 'cross-pollination' continues.

 

Also, you might consider avoiding the use of ALL CAPS. It reads like you are SHOUTING, which I'm sure you don't intend. If you wish emphasis, you might try the Italics button at the top of your text box.

 

Reading on, now ...

Respectfully submitted,

 

Gloria

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Just some thoughts as I read down this very interesting thread ... :)

 

...As I have stated many times on the BC Boards, I believe that all dogs from all working/hunting/herding breeds should have to pass a working standard before they can get breeding-type registration. While the type of test is probably contentious, I would argue that any test (even obtaining a certain cutoff score in USBCHA Novice) would be better than the status quo where any BYB can breed dogs at will that have never even seen stock.

 

I don't think that would work, because ABCA puppies are registered by their breeders shortly after birth, not later in life after having been proven. Also, since not every ABCA pup ends up in a working home, I think this could unnecessarily limit the written record of the working border collie. Yes? No? Maybe?

 

How does "engaging in conformation" cut out herding genetics? ...... I'm not quite sure how the 80 min. he spent "engaging in conformation" somehow ruined his ability to herd sheep.

...... I do think dogs bred only for looks will eventually lose their working ability, but I have seen nothing to make me believe they lose it in just a generation or two as is generally cited on the Boards as "fact".

 

I could point out any number of working dogs that are bred and produce a litter of "duds."

 

Engaging in conformation does not, of itself, cut out herding genetics. The people who breed for conformation champs cut out herding genetics. You are fortunate to have a dog whose breeding retained those genetics, but there are and have been plenty of show-type BC breeders who very deliberately exclude working traits.

 

Why? Because they find the working lines' tendencies to fixate on movement, react to sound or motion, be easily distracted, etc. as undesirable in the show ring. This is not opinion, it's documented fact. It's been written about by AKC show breeders, and there's at least one book out there in which the author talks about purposefully selecting dogs and bitches with minimal work instinct, in order to create quieter, less-distractible show dogs when she began her show BC kennel.

 

Also, many people, like me, have witnessed these show dogs attempting instinct tests - and failing sadly. The components just aren't there. People who rail against the AKC aren't simply being over-reactive. We've seen with our own eyes the detrimental affects of negatively-selected show breeding.

 

Also, breeding for show does not put stamina, endurance, or inherited abilities such as a good outrun or a natural feel for livestock, as a foremost consideration. It does not look at courage or tenacity, or the ability of a dog to think fast on his feet at 400+ yards, or to complete his job even if his handler is nowhere in sight. Show breeders are, like as not, going to look at structure, size, coat and "correctness" first, and those innate working qualities are at best just kind of assumed to go along for the ride. Sadly, however, those qualities must be nurtured and protected every bit as much as whatever arbitrary physical standard the AKC promotes.

 

Nor can we argue the AKC is not promoting a "type." One glance at the Westmister Herding Group shows a parade of almost cookie-cutter border collies, which demonstrate no hint of the physical diversity within the working lines. One cannot put a primary emphasis on physical appearance, whether for color or a specific "type," without letting other qualities slip over time. Maybe it won't happen in 3 generations. But it will happen. It already has happened.

 

I agree, ABCA registry alone is no guarantee of a dog's quality. But the odds of finding good, strong working dogs amongst the ABCA registry are a helluva lot higher than in the AKC. A registry whose breeders deliberately overlook and omit the very qualities the champions of the working BC endeavor to preserve.

 

And if you're seeing a lot of ABCA-registered dogs who can't really work or lack any interest in doing so ... shame on their breeders. They're part of the problem, too.

Respectfully submitted,

 

Gloria

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When Tess had her first litter, two of the buyers told me the specific reason they were getting a Tess pup. Words to the effects of "I rather get a pup from a bitch who had to earn her papers as that means something". It took close to two years for Tess to meet all the requirements and when she ran at the Finals, most of the ABCA ROM committe watched her run. The amount of work involved was tremendous but well worth it.

 

The ABCA did not recognize the German Herding Club papers. All of her German lines were ISDS dogs. So we took the ROM route and I don't regret it to this day.

 

Ironically, our local club had end year awards last yr. Second and Third Place Open dog was a Tess pup, and the First place PN dog was a Tess grandpup. When Tess was 11 years old, she won the coveted top combined six Open trial award of a handmade Border Collie quilt. Quite a few of her pups and grandpups are in the top 10% placings in Open and PN.

 

I saw Penny's Emily work stock at about 13 yrs or so....still working strong and quite a fine bitch. Penny's pups from Emily have proven themselves time and time again. The two ROM dogs, Emily and Tess have contributed quite a bit to the gene pool....

 

I believe there are 4 or 5 ROM dogs now...Emily, Tess, one ranch dog from the west (?), one from the midwest (Rose Anderson?) and another one.....perhaps Eileen can fill us in on this?

 

I can see you are trying to make a point which is good but perhaps the approach was a bit strong.

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I know of one here in the east, though he is no longer alive.

 

IMO, a person wanting to stack the deck in favor of getting a dog that will work to a higher standard would be well-served to get a pup off a ROM dog. As others have noted, such a dog has to have proven itself either in trials or to the satisfaction of the ABCA BOD.

 

That can't be said for many dogs being cranked out by a lot of breeders out there, who nonetheless claim their dogs are working dogs.

 

I remember someone posting some time ago a record of a trial in the UK from some years ago. The dogs were described in the program, and at least one of the dogs was described as bearded. It was clear that what we know as the modern bearded collie breed was not what was intended by that notation, but rather that the dog was a border collie with long hair on its muzzle.

 

J.

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I remember someone posting some time ago a record of a trial in the UK from some years ago. The dogs were described in the program, and at least one of the dogs was described as bearded. It was clear that what we know as the modern bearded collie breed was not what was intended by that notation, but rather that the dog was a border collie with long hair on its muzzle.

 

J.

 

Yup, those are the dogs that I, anyhow, differentiate as "bearded border collies." They're NOT bearded collies, but rather something much older, and possibly something that evolved right next to, and sometimes was crossed with and into, the dogs we know as border collies today. Heck, maybe they're even another manifestation of the border collie, (rather like Belgian shepherds include a wire-haired variation) but they've mostly been overlooked by the trialing world and kept home on the farm.

 

Certainly a lot of old photos and paintings show these bearded, wire-haired dogs, and they bear scant resemblance to the flowing-coated Bearded Collies of today. :)

 

~ Gloria

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I said I wasn't going to reply to nasty posts and I did It anyhow. OH BROTHER!

 

"Nasty?" :blink:

 

I don't believe you have had a single nasty post as a reply. You have had some people disagree with you, and offer arguments as to why your assumptions are incorrect, but no one has been rude or nasty in any way.

 

Rushdoggie, genetic diversity is also a matter of opinion. It has it Pros AND CONS. The magic is that breeders have spent many years intensifying and solidifying good traits, while also weeding out the bad ones. All breeds started from something. I think our gene pool is large enough. The traits I desire are already there! I don't believe in masking or hiding problems by outcrossing, but weeding them out of the pool and going from there! We have something they didn't have called GENETIC TESTING. Outcrossing is useful, but it also a good way to introduce new, hidden, unwanted genetics (MY POINT).

 

This shows a serious (and frightening) lack of understanding of how genetics work...especially coming from a person who is planning on breeding.

 

While Border Collies have a larger gene pool than many other breeds, there is still a small group of foundation dogs and a lot of popular sires who are found in many dogs several generations back. This allows traits that would otherwise not be an issue as they are recessive to be expressed. The traits you desire are already there along with some other issues that we would prefer were not (allergies, epilepsy, orthopedic problems, etc).

 

If you take this limited gene pool and try to "breed something out" you run the risk of bringing out things you don't want: a good example being Doberman Pinchers. This is a breed that used to have an issue with temperament. Responsible breeders in the 1980s focused on breeding for excellent temperament, but with the limited gene pool by focusing even more intently on only certain characteristics the breed now has issues with a serious bleeding disorder and heart problems.

 

Out-crossing does not "mask" anything, it helps recessive genes stay recessive. A single outcross with a pointer in the 1970s has eliminated a serious genetic issue with Dalmatians that caused a painful urinary issue. 27 generations later and its gone. Of course the Dalmatian Club of America is resisting allowing these dogs to be registered citing that there could be issues from allowing "mutts" in.

 

And while genetic testing is useful,it is no guarantee that a dog is healthy because these test can only measure just a tiny part of the whole dog.

 

No one is suggesting that just any dog should be crossed in, but if you have a dog who has the characteristics you want in a working Border Collie, regardless of "papers," this is a dog you want contributing to the gene pool. As other have pointed out, ROM requires rigorous testing.

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Sheepdogs (aka Border Collies), show Border Collies (old Aussie and NZ lines), Bearded Collies, Rough Collies and Smooth Collies all share a common heritage.

 

Sheepdogs with rough coats, smooth coats, bearded coats and everything in between continue to be bred for stock work. They are known by most people as Border Collies.

 

The other dogs have been artificially separated into different breeds and forever altered by the show ring.

 

This is a Bearded Collie. It is indeed a different breed than a sheepdog (aka Border Collie).

 

http://beardie.net/bcca/

 

These are bearded Collies like the Blue dog you are talking about.

 

http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Permanent/BCColors_CoatType/BC_ColorSmooth.html

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Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Liz wrote: "The other dogs have been artificially separated into different breeds and forever altered by the show ring."

 

Yes and no. In the early 19th century, before the railroads, different British regions may have had as many "collie" varieties (breeds) as sheep. These varieties had slightly different talents. Barbara Carpenter once told me that the Dalesman ( Forest of Dean) was a rougher noisy worker than the Border Collie and someone - I'm thinking it was John Wentz - told me that Bearded Collie crosses - like Polly Matzinger's James were better than Border Collies at controlling large flocks. There's pretty good evidence that the Kelpie and the McNab are varieies which went extinct in their homeland. The Australian Shepherd and English Shepherd may be regional or may be, like the Border Collie, an amalgam. The Smithfield Collie - found only in Tasmania - is probably a regional as is the Wicklow Collie.

 

The small, yellow, 19th century collie taxidermied at the Rothchild Natural History Museum at Tring resembles the photos I've seen of the Wicklow Collie.

 

Selection, whether natural or human inspired, discards more than it rewards. The Border Collie is blessed by an effective genetic test (the sheepdog trial) which rewards biddability, athleticism and the modified wolf behaviors which send him to the head of stock to gather them.

 

Other useful Collies, like the English Shepherd, cannot be tested nearly so well and selecting for usefulness is more difficult.

 

Donald McCaig

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I am sorry, I am going to do what Liz said and take a breath. I do not want to be disliked by the community... Liz, you may be upset with me.. but our goals are the same. It seems we both want to keep the Border Collie what it was meant to be. Please forgive me... I know you can see some of my points. I am 28 years old and I think I have a better understanding of genetics than most people 28 years old, not to glorify myself. I want to spend my life preserving what so many people could destroy, ya know?

 

You are all very right, I do have a lot to learn, and I am willing to listen. I guess I know how easily years of work in breeding can be destroyed in an instant. I am very concerned for the future of the dogs.

 

I know I ain't no genius. But, I have my own vision, and alot of work to do with my dog (I only have 1 right now).I had to figure out genetics for myself, as you all can see, and I formed my own opinions about it, I guess. I have spent many years, reading and reading. I suppose I get upset cause so many people are discusted by line breeding. I know this is the way useful traits have been set and intensified, for centuries, so that there is consistency in the resulting offspring. Yet I also understand how outcrossing has been used. I guess I am adamant about tightly bred animals on specific useful genetics, so long as no problems arise. I spent 12 + years working on and showing dairy goats (Nubians) with my uncle. He is dying of throat cancer now....and the goats are so expensive. So, I am putting my effort toward my dog, because I,d like to field trail her. I have a lifetime of experience with dogs, my grandpa raised and hunted Walker Coonhounds, and English Setters.

 

I didn't know that all caps meant you were shouting, I don't even know how to quote someone like you guys do. Sorry for seeming obnoxious.

 

I have done alot of work with my dog, and she is wonderful.

 

Liz, If you could meet me and see what I've done with her, and I could talk to you and explain myself, you wouldn't think I shouldn't have pups. You would probably like me, as I would you. You know, one of the reasons I am going to have pups is because I don't have much money to spend on my hobby per se. I want several dogs to work on the cattle, and I don't have the big bucks that the breeders want for good dogs, and I want good dogs! I am pretty sure my bitch is good, and I have found a very good male to breed her to. I am going to get her hips and eyes tested as well. The woman that owns the stud is letting me use him, and not charging me an arm and leg. I am going to have this litter for myself. The few pups I don't keep will be placed in working homes where they will be used and loved daily. And then I am going to spend all the time I can training those dogs for the field trials!

 

I really don't know how to make friends cause I've never had many, besides the dogs. So,please accept my apologies. I probably sound like a pathetic crybaby. I can only do so much to gain acceptance from my peers. And, I will never think it acceptable to breed Border Collies for anything but what they were designed for, a companion Worker.

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Appalachia - I'm not sure if you've taken the opportunity to read the "Read this first" at the top of the index page, but if you haven't, you might appreciate reading it as it explains a lot about the philosophy of these boards. And, how that philosophy relates to breeding.

 

A few points I would like to make - you have done a lot with your dog and feel she is a good dog, but what do you have to compare her with in terms of recognizing if she is breeding-quality material? Have you worked her on a variety of stock (different species of stock and/or different breeds/types of stock)? Have you worked her in a variety of locations/situations? Have you trialed her (this is not a necessity, but another way to evaluate a dog)? If you have trialed her, at what level and how successfully?

 

These are not criticisms of you at all - they are attempts to find out how you may have determined in your mind that she is breeding-worthy, and to see if your experiences with her are limited or expansive.

 

As for not having "the big bucks that the breeders want for good dogs", have you considered the true costs of breeding your bitch (even without a stud fee, and I wonder about someone who doesn't charge a stud fee and the quality of their dog)? The costs of the genetic/structural testing you are looking at? The costs associated with pregnancy and whelping, and raising healthy pups? The costs that could arise if your bitch or pups have complicatons?

 

I'd be interested to know what you feel are "the big bucks that the breeders want for good dogs". Quality, working-bred pups from well-proven parents are usually very reasonably priced - in the $500-700 range. Nicely started dogs can be purchased for $1500-2500. That sounds like a lot of money but consider this - when you purchase a started (partially trained dog of about 1 1/2 to 2 years of age, for instance) dog, you are buying a known entity.

 

It is a dog that has demonstrated that it can work to that level, takes training, and has potential to progress. If you have (or buy) a pup, it is always a gamble, no matter how well-bred (and even more so when you don't have the experience and background to make the "artful" decisions that good breeding requires). In a well-bred litter of eight, there might be several top-notch pups, several moderately-talented pups, and some duds - or any combination of the above (as you note, good line-breeding can up your chances for good pups but it can also up your chances for genetic issues).

 

So, add up the uncertainly of the real breeding value of your bitch; the uncertainly of the real breeding value of the dog (and, since I know nothing about him, I can't even hazard a guess - he could be a world-beater, but I don't know that and I wonder if you truly could know that); the uncertainty that no matter how good individually the stud and bitch may be, they may not be a good breeding combination; the costs of the testing that you plan to do; the costs associated with pregnancy, whelping, and raising pups; the uncertainty that any pups you produce will have the quality you are hoping for (or that any pups you choose from that litter will have the quality you are hoping for); the costs of raising those pups to an age where they can be actually trained (a pup can look like a topper but still not have what it takes to train up to be a useful dog) and evaluated; and the list goes on and on.

 

I'd give you the same advice I'd give anyone - put in the years learning about the dogs, the training, and the work; find a mentor to help guide you; get out for training, clinics, and trials to learn all you can; and someday, when you have experience under your belt, then consider breeding - if and when you have the dog(s) that deserve to pass their genetics on to the next generation.

 

Best wishes!

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I suppose I get upset cause so many people are discusted by line breeding.

 

Some breeders use this method quite regularly. Others feel that genetic diversity is extremely important.

 

You know, one of the reasons I am going to have pups is because I don't have much money to spend on my hobby per se. I want several dogs to work on the cattle, and I don't have the big bucks that the breeders want for good dogs, and I want good dogs! I am pretty sure my bitch is good, and I have found a very good male to breed her to.

 

Have you even looked at the market for working Border Collies? Generally, breeders of well-bred stockdogs do not charge big bucks for pups, even pups out of top sires and dams. Logically, a trained dog would be more expensive than a pup, possibly even big bucks, depending on the degree to which the dog is trained or if it's got trialing success.

 

What things do you see in your bitch's working ability that makes you "pretty sure" she is good? What about the prospective stud makes him a very good male to breed to? Are you experienced enough to be able to evaluate this? I couldn't tell from your posts, but it sounds as though this is your first Border Collie, or at least the first one you've worked on livestock. If you don't have experience, do you have a mentor experienced in working stockdogs, who is in agreement with your assessments?

 

ETA: I see Sue posted similar questions as I was fiddling around composing and editing my post. :)

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Appalachia,

Sue has made some very good points, and I hope you will seriously think about what she said. Are you planning to keep all the pups from the litter you produce? What if none of them are good for working cattle? There are some very nice proven cattle working lines, and those pups can be found in the $400-500 range. If I wanted a pup for working cattle, I would look to folks who are already breeding useful/successful cattle working dogs and spend a lot of time learning before deciding to breed for myself.

 

Trust me, even if you you do all the right things (and I include actually proving the breeding prospect in this, along with appropriate health tests), there are absolutely no guarantees that you'll have good working pups or that some other genetic issue won't pop up. Been there....

 

J.

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Donald, I realize that there was regional variation that created the "breeds" we see today. However, there was also the potential for the flow of genes between those populations, unhindered by kennel clubs touting purity. If a shepherd needed a mate for his "Bearded Collie" but the only suitable dog he could find was a "Border Collie," he wouldn't throw his arms up the air and say, "I can't do that! They would be mutts!" The shepherd would consider the working qualities of the parents and breed those two dogs together if he felt they would produce what he needed.

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.....I want several dogs to work on the cattle, and I don't have the big bucks that the breeders want for good dogs, and I want good dogs! I am pretty sure my bitch is good, and I have found a very good male to breed her to. I am going to get her hips and eyes tested as well.

 

Hello again, Appalachia ~

 

This forum can be a contentious and passionate place, ofttimes. As Sue said, there are various philosophies at play here of which people are quite passionate. Meanwhile though, your peace offering is well received, at least in my book. :)

 

As a side-note, though, I hope you are aware that, for the cost of getting your bitch's hips and elbows OFA certified and her eyes CEA DNA tested, you could nearly purchase two nice pups. Both procedures must also include your vet's time and costs, as well. Not trying to tell you what to do, just pointing out a financial reality, as I'm not sure you'd checked into the pricing. :)

Best regards,

 

~ Gloria

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