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Pedigrees - NZ/AU Show Lines in ABCA?

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I know we've talked about pedigrees before on here with the Bearded Collies and such.

 

Someone (who?) at one point in time brought up that they had seen a ABCA pedigree with NZ/AU show lines.

 

I ran across this pedigree while ago but forgot where I saw it and just found it again.

 

http://www.hillcrestbordercollies.com/inde...id=46&Itemid=34

 

I am just wondering how Gotrah Kaspers Kid sired a dog that is registered with the ABCA? Is he also registered with a working registry that the ABCA accepts?

 

Thanks!

 

Katelynn

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"Gotrah Kaspers Kid" is the sire of "Terbo's TriHard Indy" who is ABC # 232077.

 

Then "Terbo's TriHard Indy" is the dam of "TriHard's Cut N Up" who is ABC # 232476.

 

Katelynn

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I believe that he might have been imported before the AKC recognized the Border Collie. So, yes I believe that you are correct in saying that he was most likely registered with the AIBC and that is how his offspring must have been ABCA registered.

 

I would suspect that there might be a few other NZ/OZ dogs that got into the ABCA stud book this way. :-(

 

Kathy

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And would this then be a way for CL to have been introduced into ABCA registered dogs (if anyone remembers that discussion a while back)?

 

J.

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Absolutely. If you know Kasper's pedigree you can see where it ties in with the pedigree's they have published as effected.

 

Karen

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So it would be easy enough to track what dogs go back to those lines and avoid them in breeding, wouldn't it? Were any of these dogs ever trialed and then subsequently bred from? Or are the dogs just a subset within ABCA that got there by virtue of their AIBC recognition but which actually haven't been crossed into the working lines (since people wanting to succeed in conformation would certainly want to keep the NZ look to the dogs and therefore would choose to cross with other NZ/OZ lines to preserve the proper look for the show ring)?

 

J.

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I doubt any of the dogs trialed, much less were bred for "work". This site has some CL info http://www.bccnsw.com

 

They used to publish the pedigree info on each dog and each litter but I couldn't find it. I want to say Kaspers sire or littermate was a carrier and produced an affected litter but w/o the info in front of me I am just not sure.

 

Karen

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If that is correct, it would be a possible way for CL to get into working lines (though, I believe not to many working lines would cross out to this sort of line but things do happen).

 

CL is something the AU Border Collie breed has and is not known to the ABCA or ISDS Border Collie.

 

This could, possibly, be very determent to our Border Collies health down the road.

 

Katelynn

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I know of a few trial dogs out there who go back to sport lines if you look far enough into the pedigree. What I don't know is if those dogs go back to any AU/NZ show dogs. I wasn't even aware that AU/NZ show lines were imported to the US prior to the AKC recognizing the breed until a few years ago.

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To find the pedigree of the affected/carriers you have to go to the info page of the previous link I posted, then to health, then click on the link for CL pedigree's.

 

Karen

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CL is something the AU Border Collie breed has and is not known to the ABCA or ISDS Border Collie.
Just to be pedantic- that's the AU Show border collie. I don't believe its known in the AU Working border collie.

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Looks to me like Kasper's a full brother to a known carrier, Gotrah Lancelot Lad, and was indeed AKC registered (not just ILP'd)at some point. He's the sire/gandsire of very famous agility dogs - who may indeed also be ABCA or AIBC or NABCS registered.

http://www.bordercolliesociety.com/programs/rom/kasper.htm

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Hi,

 

I just saw this thread and was going to post about Lancelot Lad, but Laurie beat me to it.

 

Kasper is indeed a littermate to one of only 26 (?) known carriers. My dog is a Kasper grandson, and I only found out about the CL deal after I got him--very scary. My dog and his dam (Kasper daughter) tested clear.

 

Kasper did sire several litters. I didn't know he had sired any dogs that registered into ABCA however.

 

Regarding this quote above: "I doubt any of the dogs trialed, much less were bred for "work".

 

My dog Savvy (an AKC conformation champion, among his total 25 or so titles) is Kasper's grandson. Just last weekend, Savvy was Reserve High in Trial at an AKC trial from the Advanced Sheep class. The only dog in the trial to beat him was handled by a USBCHA Open handler and beat Savvy by a single point. For those who knock AKC trials, Savvy also competes in USBCHA Open sheep buddy-brace, Pro-Novice sheep regular, and Novice cattle (2nd place of 16 at his first cattle T&P trial so far). So yes, Kasper has at least one working descendent. I'm not sure, but I was always under the impression that Hillcrest BCs trialed in USBCHA as well.

 

Columbia, MO

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Columbia,

I believe the point being made in the post you quote above is that it's *unlikely* that working dog breeders (at least those from whom most of us who are serious about working dogs would buy from) flocked to dogs of Kasper's line to produce working dogs (therefore reducing the likelihood of CL getting into "real" working lines). It's great that you work your dog, have tons of titles on him, and even trial in P/N, but that doesn't disprove the assertion that folks breeding from Kasper's or Lancelot's lines were not likely to be breeding for work. The exception doesn't prove the rule, and this discussion isn't about any one individual's dog.

 

Now since you have a conformation champion (among 25 or so other titles) and are apparently pro-AKC, how about visiting the other active thread in this section and giving us your opinion on AKC and puppy mills? I'd honestly like to hear from someone who is actively involved in AKC, not just folks who have no intention of being involved with AKC.

 

J.

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Just a point of information:

 

Being a USBCHA Open Handler/Dog means nothing.

Anybody can enter. Any dog can enter. There are

no restrictions. It is, well, Open.

 

The hard part is to win or place at USBCHA Open trials and

to do it consistently. That means something.

 

Also, what is "buddy-brace"? This is certainly not a USBCHA sanctioned class.

 

charlie

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My esteemed Mr. Torre,

 

Buddy brace as I know it is a "just for fun" event sometimes held after a trial and involves several dogs and handlers:

 

One dog and handler do the outrun, then another dog and handler take over and do the fetch, another dog and handler do the drive..... and so-on.

 

It's just something people do for fun on occasion and is more about the betting and laughter than about dog work. I think teams are usually drawn out of a hat and are competing for a jackpot or perhaps a cocktail. I think people often use their green dogs just to make things more interesting.

 

Think of it as similar in spirit to a potato sack race at a company picnic.

 

Your shootin' buddy, Glenn.

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Originally posted by juliepoudrier:

giving us your opinion on AKC and puppy mills? I'd honestly like to hear from someone who is actively involved in AKC, not just folks who have no intention of being involved with AKC.

I'm not Columbia, but I'm fairly active in AKC since they're very much the main agility game in town. I've never been a big fan but I didn't think they were Satan either. Now I'm not so sure. They've confirmed my belief that their goals first and foremost are all about making money. I find the Petland thing beyond disappointing and amazingly, blatantly hypocritical for an organization this is allegedly promoting any version of "improving" the purebred dog. There is quite an outcry of outrage among hard core AKC folks over this development. It will be interesting to see if the AKC backs down or if that is even possible depending on the wording of the contract with Petland.

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Hi all,

 

Regarding "buddy brace," it is non-sanctioned class at many USBCHA trials here in Missouri. Calling it a "just for fun" class is a matter of opinion. Most people I know (BC owners and otherwise) would consider *every* USBCHA class a "just for fun" class, because they do not grant any titles.

 

Anyway, the entrants at our Buddy Brace last month were almost entirely Open class placers (in the money) plus our team, both from P/N. It is not for green dogs and in fact can be harder to manage than just having a single dog/handler on the course. I was just mentioning it to let people know that in fact an AKC conformation champion and grandson of the dog in question (also a conformation champion) is quite capable of shedding, penning, etc.

 

Regarding the AKC or myself as their "representative".... First of all, I do not breed and have never bred. My conformation champion JRT and BC are both neutered.

 

I am involved with rescue and am the co-chair of the AKC National Specialty Rescue Benefit this Oct. In previous years, I ran the other Rescue fundraiser at the specialty (the Fun & Games). I have gone undercover to puppy mills and written articles that are easy to find online. I was one of the people that advocated for UKC to crack down on puppy mills, as mentioned in the other thread. And I'm an active volunteer of our local humane society.

 

So I hope you don't have to ask whether or not I support the new move by AKC regarding Petland. I have already written to the AKC expressing my opinion on this and suggesting that they instead increase funds by allowing mixed-breed dogs to ILP and compete in performance events. However, this would certainly not cause me to stop doing AKC events, anymore than the ABCA's hypocritical refusal to allow conformation champions to register on merit prevents me from competing in USBCHA.

 

Columbia, MO

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Originally posted by Columbia MO:

However, this would certainly not cause me to stop doing AKC events, anymore than the ABCA's hypocritical refusal to allow conformation champions to register on merit prevents me from competing in USBCHA.

 

Columbia, MO

Um, except that ABCA's "hypocrisy" affects very few dogs, which in NO WAY compares to the thousands of miserable lives that are the result of puppy mills, which AKC is now supporting. I'm sure you can see how comparing institutional support of puppy millers for the sole reason of generating income with disallowing a few dogs into a registry because they were bred for reasons that are antithetical to that registry's beliefs are not in any way even remotely equivalent.

 

And I think we can leave the "AKC conformation dogs make great herding dogs" discussion to another thread. We all know this board's philosophy on breeding for conformation, and one dog's success in non-open classes (even buddy brace classes) certainly won't convince anyone that AKC is somehow preserving working ability in the breed. In fact, I think one could say that with the whole Petland thing, AKC aficianados even lose their tired argument about the vast numbers of non-working dogs registered with ABCA, since it would seem that AKC is planning to register vast numbers of poorly bred puppy mill dogs (the only requirement being that they be AKC registerable).

 

J.

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Kasper is indeed a littermate to one of only 26 (?) known carriers. My dog is a Kasper grandson, and I only found out about the CL deal after I got him--very scary. My dog and his dam (Kasper daughter) tested clear.
Thanks for the information Columbia. The original intent of the thread was to discuss CL and ways it could get into the ABCA studbooks. Now it could be that some of Kaspers' offspring were ABCA registered who knows. However, as well as you are doing with your dog I have to ask - Is he ABCA registered as well? That's the point, offspring from Kasper most likely went to AKC and bypassed ABCA or have since dropped their ABCA registering.

 

I suppose the only way to find out "for sure" would be to require testing of all immediate offspring of Kasper, registered with ABCA, to be checked for their status on CL (and or have papers recinded). Not realistic imo though. So, there is a way for CL to get into the working registry. This happened so long ago that running it down would be a marathon. It is nice to know though that your dogs dam is clear.

 

Karen

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Originally posted by Journey:

as well as you are doing with your dog I have to ask - Is he ABCA registered as well? That's the point, offspring from Kasper most likely went to AKC and bypassed ABCA or have since dropped their ABCA registering.

My dog is not ABCA registered and cannot be. The ABCA will not allow a conformation champion to attempt to register on merit. At any rate, he is neutered and has never been bred.

 

In the second part of the quote above, I'm not sure what you mean by bypassing the ABCA. The original pedigree that was posted shows that Kasper's offspring have ALREADY been ABCA registered, and that these offspring have ALREADY been bred to produce other dogs that are also ABCA registered. I would say that this already shows that Kasper (and potentially CL) are in the ABCA gene pool. In another generation or two, Kasper won't show up on printed pedigrees and anybody buying a decendent will have no way of knowing that they should be testing for CL.

 

I hope this will at least get people to stop denying that there is a possibility that the CL gene may already be in ABCA dogs. I know it has been rumored (I have no backup on this) that a totally-ABCA-lines dog was found to have CL in Texas, but the breeder refused to allow publication of the dog or bloodlines. Now here is another possible avenue for CL to have entered ABCA.

 

Now that Optigen has a DNA test for CL, I hope that all descendents of Kasper are getting tested before being bred. Everybody I know in the AKC with a Kasper descendent has done so...I doubt it is being done (or that breeders are aware of the test) in the ABCA. There is no reason to keep CL carriers out of the gene pool initially: with help of the test, carriers can be eliminated from the gene pool at the second generation with no risk of spreading the gene or having a puppy born with the disease. But they certainly should only be bred by breeders willing to pay to test each and every breeding dog & puppy and neuter all non-clear dogs in the second generation.

 

Columbia, MO

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In the second part of the quote above, I'm not sure what you mean by bypassing the ABCA. The original pedigree that was posted shows that Kasper's offspring have ALREADY been ABCA registered, and that these offspring have ALREADY been bred to produce other dogs that are also ABCA registered.
Not exactly. While his offspring may have been registered their offspring may not. They may have elected to go with AKC only, by passing ABCA - meaning not bothering since they are not interested in ABCA.

 

Karen

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Not exactly. While his offspring may have been registered their offspring may not. They may have elected to go with AKC only, by passing ABCA - meaning not bothering since they are not interested in ABCA.

 

Karen

Karen,

 

Some history: Kasper was born in Australia, registered with their all-breed registry and shown to a conformation championship. He was then imported here and also shown to an AKC championship. He was then somehow registered in the ABCA. He would have HAD to have at least one conformation championship before getting in.

 

Kasper's owner was a former OTCH trainer, and Kasper was working on his UD when he was killed in an accident. By all accounts he was a lovely dog in structure, temperament and willingness, though I have no information about his ability on stock. As I understand it, his brother didn't produce a CL-affected puppy until after Kasper died--certainly nobody was aware it was in his bloodline during his lifetime.

 

Anyway, I believe that if the breeders and buyers involved in this pedigree were only interested in AKC sports and conformation, they would not have gone to the trouble of getting Kasper into the ABCA and breeding three generations (so far) of ABCA registered dogs from him.

 

Back to your point about his offspring only being of interest to AKC people:

 

Kasper was bred and produced an ABCA litter containing Indy. Indy was bred and produced an ABCA litter containing Blade. Blade was bred to Roo, a dual-registered dog from working stock and has either had or will have puppies soon.

 

Now that Kasper will be a great-grandfather in this pedigree, and assuming he produced 3 ABCA-registered breeding dogs in his lifetime who each produced 3 more breeding dogs in their lifetimes... it is likely there are currently about 100 ABCA registered dogs with Kasper as father, grand, or great-grandfather. Any one of these dogs could possibly be carrying the CL gene, which is why it is a good idea to do the Optigen test before breeding any BC from any registry.

 

Columbia, MO

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