"Judging Conflict of Interest" ???

[Black Watch Debatable]

Does someone else have another perspective???

Well? kind of.

 

Just that it's going to be rough on some people. I?m thinking of two or three good Open handlers (and border collie breeders) who make their living training dogs here in Cali, and who judge AKC and AHBA events around the country. They've devoted most of their lives to working border collies, and I've personally heard a couple of them say that they'd slit their wrists if a dog of their breeding ever wound up registered with the AKC.

 

But not one of these individuals is anywhere near wealthy, and nowadays, as far as I can tell, they manage to pay their bills thanks in large part to AKC clients: border collie and aussie people who love to collect titles, and ?non-traditional herding breed? folks who sign up their Ridgebacks and Chows for "herding instinct tests."

 

If this were a movie, I'd get all kinds of grim satisfaction from watching these handler/trainers squirm for the sin of fraternizing with the AKC. As it is, I'm just sad. Making a principled stand is a lot easier when your livelihood isn't at stake.

 

 

I really can't stand the AKC.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

True. But there are plenty more Open handlers/breeders who are just as good, devoted and un-wealthy, yet their livelihood doesn't depend on the AKC because they never took that first step toward serving an organization they despise. If they end up no longer being at an economic disadvantage relative to those who did throw in their lot with the AKC, I won't be sorry.

 

When you sup with the devil, better use a long spoon.

[Black Watch Debatable]

It doth appear you are a worthy judge;

You know the law, your exposition

Hath been most sound.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Ethics and morals come to mind.

 

My breed, its health, and its abilities as a working dog are worth more to me then any amount of money could be or ever will be.

 

This is a good wake up call for people who sat on the fence. It is time for them to take a side and show the world what is more important to them.

 

We'll be watching.

[Bill Fosher]

Luisa,

 

This won't be the first time that people have had to choose between doing what they know is right and making easy money.

 

Personally, if I had to choose between flipping burgers or mowing lawns and helping people put AKC herding titles on Chows, I'd be mowing lawns. I might even be flipping burgers. Not because of a high moral threshold, but because I decided about 15 years ago that life is too short to cater to idiots.

 

Robert Hunter said it best for me:

 

I won't slave for beggar's pay

Likewise, gold and jewels

But I would slave to learn the way

To sink your ship of fools.

[muddy bob]

I do feel bad for the aussie folks though. I know of a lot of those judges that have nothing to do with our breed and this is going to hit them hard. A lot will have to make the decision along economic lines. It's a shame that people will be forced into a corner. I still care about the "other breeds" and this is going to reduce the pool of judges for them.

For the sake of full disclosure DH trains and trials another breed and trials in both ASCA and AKC. We do NOT discuss the politics for the sake of the relationship. His dogs are just as important to him as mine are to me.

 

Muddy

[Black Watch Debatable]

Gah.

 

Bill wrote:

This won't be the first time that people have had to choose between doing what they know is right and making easy money.

Of course not. My point was that it's hard for me to be smug about their current predicament: "No, I cannot share your laughter," as the man wrote And they don't make "easy money."

Personally, if I had to choose between flipping burgers or mowing lawns and helping people put AKC herding titles on Chows, I'd be mowing lawns. I might even be flipping burgers. Not because of a high moral threshold, but because I decided about 15 years ago that life is too short to cater to idiots.

If memory serves, Little Hats founder Heather Nadelman still keeps AKC bassets. Many people active in AKC events are pleasant and even intelligent (may the scales be lifted from their eyes). Quite a few Open handlers started out with other "herding" breeds. And working an ABCA sheepdog on stock is certainly no guarantee that one isn't an idiot.

 

As I said, I can't stand the AKC, and I've traded some strong language with two of the handlers I mentioned over their AKC involvement. In the interests of full disclosure, one of those handlers drove five or six hours to help me trim hooves last year, a week after I'd had surgery. We've been friends since before the "wars."

 

Of course the AKC is hateful, and the greater the rift between their dogs and ours, the better. Not surprisingly, there seemed to be an undercurrent of grim satisfaction in a few posts, and I meant only to say that I don't share it.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Whoa, Luisa, that is totally unfair! What is she supposed to do -- kill them? Yes, she started out in the AKC, where she showed basset hounds. She had two bassets at the time she started learning about border collies and became convinced, as she says in the Little Hats FAQ, that "AKC is bad for border collies." One basset has since died. She doesn't do anything in the AKC with the one survivor. When he dies, she will not be getting another. She has never registered a border collie with the AKC, ILPed a border collie with the AKC, or shown a border collie in any AKC event, either before or after recognition. She has totally turned her back on the AKC. To equate her with people who are deriving profit from the AKC is completely unjustifiable.

 

I'm not "smug" about this development. I will be glad if it happens, because I think it's better for the border collie if the division between the two breeds is not muddied. And also because, as someone who implores BC people not to support the AKC ("Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools"), I don't like to see those who live up to their principles lose out financially to those who don't. But unfortunately I think it's more likely than not that USBCHA will be added to the exempt list, because AKC derives stature from having real open handlers judging their events (which means those open handlers are conferring that stature). Even if I'm wrong, and they do make these guys choose between the USBCHA and the AKC, nobody is going to lose their livelihood, for heaven's sake. They'll lose some judging gigs, or they'll turn their coats.

[Black Watch Debatable]

[Luisa beats head on rocks]

 

I was not equating Heather with people who are deriving profit from the AKC. Not for a nansecond. I was attempting to illustrate that not all people who participate in AKC activities are idiots, as Bill's post seemed to imply. I followed Bill's "life is too short to cater to idiots" comment with: "If memory serves, Little Hats founder Heather Nadelman still keeps AKC bassets. Many people active in AKC events are pleasant and even intelligent (may the scales be lifted from their eyes). Quite a few Open handlers started out with other "herding" breeds."

 

How this equates Heather with "people who are deriving profit from the AKC" absolutely beats me.

 

Edited to add: Jerry would be so proud. :cool:

[Eileen Stein]

Sorry, but I read ". . . still keeps AKC bassets" as implying fraternization and/or hypocrisy, and the implication is undeserved.

[Bill Fosher]

And what I was saying is not that everyone who has an AKC registered dog is an idiot, but those who will pay wads of cash to trainers to put AKC herding titles on dogs are idiots, generally speaking.

[muddy bob]

Bill,

I am in no way defending the AKC. I am no fan. However, I must point out that I know plenty of folks with border collies that pay through the nose for trained dogs and pay trainers wads of cash so they can have a dog to compete in ISDS style trials, a hobby. For some it does seem to be a symbol of status to have a successful trial dog. The difference is we aren't getting pretty little ribbons and certificates of "achievment". I don't think I need to mention the difference in the standard of the "work" being done. Why aren't these sort of people idiots in your estimation? Or are they?

 

respectfully,

muddy

[Katelynn & Gang]

Muddy Bob,

 

Have you ever seen a AKC "trial"?

 

Here is a dog (ummm and handler) ?running" a AKC HSA-s trial at a fun match.

 

 

Here is a dog doing the HCT title test. This dog ?passed? and earned its first leg towards its HCT title.

 

 

If you have never seen a real ISDS trial and real working dogs, you won't know any better to see the difference. But for those of us who have, we can only shake our heads in dismay and walk away.

 

I proudly do lessons with my dogs so one day I will be able to walk to post at a ISDS trial and know what the heck I am doing out there with both dogs and sheep, for it is not as simple by any stretch of the imagination as these AKC "trials.?

 

Katelynn

[Bill Fosher]

Muddy Bob,

 

There are idiots everywhere. The population density varies widely.

[AK dog doc]

Snerk!

[muddy bob]

Bill, I wholeheartedly agree! Katelynne, I think you missed my point. My point was that there are folks doing simililar sorts of things for the same idiotic reasons that participate in ISDS style trials. In no way have I indicated that there is ANY comparison between the two. To inform you better, I will state that I have participated for several years in ISDS style trials and restate that DH trials his non border collie in the arena trials. So, as you can imagine, I have seen a few AND I think I'm educated enough to see the difference. I think it's an entirely different culture that doesn't know anything else. I don't think that makes them all idiots. I think of them more like the cubscouts or girlscouts earning their little badges.

I'm a lover not a fighter so I will overlook the fact that you think someone I care about is an idiot.

What's a girl to do? Tell him to quit being an idiot and get a good dog? I'd be out on the street. I walk a fine line at times as you probably can guess and I know I must hurt his feelings accidentally. He is NOT an idiot!

 

respectfully,

 

muddy

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

I don't have much to say, and this is not in defense of AKC (in which I do not compete or register my dogs) but in defense of the online videos shown to make a point that AKC "herding" is so different from USBCHA. Of course, it is night and day different but neither of the breeds represented in those videos are intended or designed to work as Border Collies do.

 

I thought the Malinois showed that they at least put some time on the dog and although the sheep were extra super-dog broke- I have seen many border collies do worse at novice-novice trials. The second example- is it a big deal this dog got a herding instinct certification? It did show herding instinct and on at least two occasions backed down a sheep that was challenging it. The dog looked like it had not been on sheep many times before and I don't think its owner was working it as it looked back towards the crowd several times. But it did show instinct and for a sustained time- which is what I understand is the point of that level.

 

I wouldn't shake my head in dismay at the efforts of these two dogs. I would shake my head in dismay if they were border collies that were considered breeding stock by their owners at that level. The first dog in particular shows a great deal of training and control- I would not have the patience to take months to put that level of training in that dog when I could get a border collie doing it fairly quickly. I don't think that amount of effort should be scoffed at. I have no problem with open handlers helping "other" breed people out with working dogs- I think its important they set an example of good stockmanship and make ethical breeding decisions.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Muddy,

 

I did miss your point. I noticed once I posted. My mistake, I am sorry.

 

I am not sure what my view is on another breeds and "herding" is yet. I do not really care about any other breed like I do the Border Collie breed, so I have never really thought about it in depth, I guess?

 

Jamie,

 

I posted the first video because of the sheep and how dog broken they were (as you pointed out) for a "trial." It had nothing to do with the dog or what it could or could not do or how much or how little time was spent training it.

 

I posted the second video for people to interrupt the HCT title test their selves. I could not tell you how a working Aussie should work because I was not fortunate enough to be born when they were plentiful.

 

Seeing a Border Collie (not any other breed) being judged on its ?working ability? in these sorts of ?trials,? I would have to say yes, I?d shake my head in dismay and walk away.

 

Katelynn

[Smokjbc]

The little Aussie works like many Aussies I've seen- they are less independent than Border Collies are (on stock at least) and she was pretty typical for Aussies. They work very close and I recognize the dog using its shoulder to turn sheep as a very Aussie thing to do.

 

I feel compelled to speak up for Aussies because I've had the good fortune to come across several that work well (compared to Aussies, not compared to Border Collies ). I don't think its too late for Aussie folks to salvage the working breed- whether they will do it or not is another question.

 

I also think the distinction has to be made between "herding for fun" and serious sheepdogging. I have no problems with dog broke sheep being at a beginner's level dog trial- which I would consider AKC events to be. The stock also must be used to a variety of dog breeds and I doubt it would be possible to do that and not make the stock dog broke (or in some cases, extremely sour). While I do not think any Border Collie handler should use these type of trials as a measure of working ability, I think it is a good thing that people with less "gifted" breeds have a place to pursue some level of work. I would rather not see Border Collies at AKC competitions at all and would encourage Border Collie people to go to USBCHA novice-novice to start out in (or some aspects of AHBA are beginner friendly and more appropriate for Border Collies).

[Katelynn & Gang]

Yes, the Aussie does also work like many Aussies I have seen work that were breed for things other then working ability.

 

I have only seen one working bred Aussie on sheep, which was about the same age as the dog in the video. I must say, it was a very different from what I recall.

 

Katelynn

[muddy bob]

Jaime, thank you for posting your thoughts on this topic. They are my sentiments precisely.

muddy

[Liz P]

Well, at least that Mal wasn't trying to eat the sheep.

 

The Aussie was just way too painful to watch. I didn't even make it halfway through the video. The dog looked like it was in there fooling around, no real instinct from what I could see. Sad.

[Dixie_Girl]

Okay, everyone knows how new I am to all this, which is why I hadn't posted anything here. Just read to learn. However, I just watched the vids posted. OMG!

In the first one, exactly who was suppose to be doing the herding? Cuz it looked to me like the person was walking the sheep and the dog was simply following! I didn't see any herding! I know, I know, I am new so I probly didn't catch the herding part.

In the second vid, I am glad they put music to it so I would know what THEY were doing! DANCING! How cute! Maybe they could put that one on David Letterman!

 

Sun. I went to a trial in Lawndale NC. At the end of the day, the top 3(ended up with 4 dogs cuz of a tie) were to do a double lift and a collared shed. One of the dogs that made it to the 4 was a dog just going into open. As I understood it, the dog had never done a double lift. After the first lift, the handler had to make the dog "look back" for the sheep it could not see! That it had never done before. At first the dog was confused about being told to leave the sheep he just got, to get what? But finally, the dog went to trained mode, and did indeed go get the other group. They didn't get the shed or pen, but then, no ones dog did that day. The point is, this dog was doing a 500+yrd outrun. ALONE! To see what I saw Sun. and to know what Jackson has done since first introduced at 5mos. it is a sad thing that someone thought the vids worthy of making, much less showing! At 5 mos. Jackson showed more control over the sheep than the dog in the second vid. If this is what the AKC can, with a straight face, call herding, I am on a campaign! Down with the AKC! I never have liked them, now, they are in deep doo doo with me.

[kelpiegirl]

I too watched the videos. The Mal did just what he was asked and when asked to cb, or wtm, he did so. What was odd, to me, were the sheep. Why are we walking around with sheep following us so much? If this is a herding course, I would have to say the sheep being trained would pass anyone. THe Aussie looked very new to sheep, and didn't appear to be doing anything more than showing interest in the sheep; he didn't have any tools, other than interest. But, in defense of both dogs, who knows where they are in their training, and who knows who trained them?

I saw an Aussie bred by Bob Vest at a herding clinic not too long ago. The dog was incredible- hands down. The dog had style, presence and biddability, strength on the sheep, good rate, you name it. This was a working bred Aussie, and it left me quite impressed.

Julie

[Deb Mickey]

The Mal actually had nice flanks and pace and started off with a nice outrun to boot. What he/she would have done with less dog-broke sheep is hard to say. It was obviously very elementary work - Wearing 101! or our Novice/Novice.

 

The aussie was interesting... he/she did some good things too - like not backing off when the black-faced sheep challenged him. He/she actually backed the sheep down a number of times. Was he/she actually *herding*? Hard to say, but he/she certainly showed interest and courage.

 

I, too, say to Jamie, "Here, here!"