colors

[Pipedream Farm]

Eileen,

 

No joke; we've seen sheep (ours included) meet Jasper at the fence to check each other out. We were surprised; but it has happened enough to say it wasn't a coincidence.

 

Mark

[SoloRiver]

In my sample of two, Solo has WAY more presence around sheep than Fly does. Of course, along with Solo's redness he also has this interesting "loose cannon" quality. But as I mentioned before, there have been a few occasions that I couldn't get sheep moved with Fly and had to use Solo instead.

 

On the other hand, there have been occasions when Solo's confidence was really low (Becca was there) and sheep completely ignored him.

 

I think there are way more important determinants of power and presence than color. If red dogs tend to be weak, I'd guess that there may be some other linked trait, or a "self-fulfilling prophecy" phenomenon at work.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Well, yeah, but there's a lot more about Jasper than color to make them curious.

[juliepoudrier]

Mark,

It sounds like your sheep respond to Jasper the way Rebecca's sheep responded to my sister's irish wolfhounds. Maybe it's a sight hound thing.

 

J.

[kajarrel]

Sheep even react differently to a "sheep" of a different color. The first time I introduced a black ram into my, then, all white flock total pandemonium broke out with sheep running over and through my electric fence. I've also had older white ewes reject their first black lamb - them seem to say "that can't be mine."

 

They definately also know when a dog is unfamiliar and will walk up to them and stare until/unless the dog acts "like a border collie" or otherwise aggressively. I'm always amazed about how "dog savvy" my guys are - they can "read" a weak dog in an instant and, if I'm not quick, will often gang up on it (if lambs are around) and run it away.

 

So - yes I think sheep do recognize and process "color" differences but I also think (know) they read the "whole package" when determining how to respond to a dog.

 

Kim

[bcnewe2]

I had the black ram being introduced to my white flock thing happen too. Poor guy was young and all the other (white) sheep ran away from this scary black monster, only problem was he was running with them looking back for that horrible monster threatening them. It took at least a day for the sheep to settle down with the little black ram.

I've also had ewes knock different colored lambs away from them quickly, but a lamb of similar color to theirs will get a quick sniff first.

 

I think my sheep read the dog not the color. They will take the time to size up a different looking dog before reacting but when a dog with intent walks into the pasture it doesn't seem to matter what color, the sheep respond. Same with a dog of different intent. A weak dog will be picked on or turned on quickly, I had a tiny Yorkshire terrier get loose in the field and the sheep were running for their lives as the terrier had intent. I have a big mostly white bc who is not a working dog and the sheep don't care what he does.

 

There's my horse/dog of a different color opinion!

Kristen

[Mona Howard]

It's my opinion (yes, I'm always right that

sheep recognize a dog by it's shape and color is

not that important to them. If they turn to

challenge an off-color dog maybe it's because it's

just a softer dog. I've seen sheep react to any

color dog because of it's power or lack of it and

challenge a traditionally colored dog and other

colors. My two cents worth. Wasn't one of Alisdair's dogs heavily white with some big black

patches? It was a long coat dog and won alot.

Maybe I'm thinking of someone else..........

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Are you thinking of Ben? Ben was a HA National champ, but I noticed he got sold pretty quick. I was bummed because I liked watching him - he was big and plain working, a type of dog that's always attracted me for some reason.

 

There was Bill but he wasn't what I'd call heavily white, just really flashy. He did win a lot with Bill.

[J.E.S]

You are thinking of Ben. He was the 1996 National Finals winner and the sire of Bill who was 2001, 2002, 2003 Natl finals winner. Ben was black and white spotted but I don't think he was mostly white. One of my dogs is out of Ben and I spent time with Ben, who is a real sweet dog but I cannot remember his face markings. I do know that he has one blue eye because I had a talk with Alasdair about different colored eyes and if he thought it made a difference in depth perception having two different colored eyes. I have two different colored eyes and my depth perception sucks. He didn't think it made a difference. I have a white faced dog and it does not seem to have made a difference in how the sheep perceive him.

[Liz P]

I won't even repeat what Alasdair said about red dogs.

 

The most powerful BCs I've known had solid black faces, although several were related.

 

Dogs with a lot of white seem to be doing fine in trials these days. Are there more of them lately, or am I just noticing them?

 

Liz

[laurie etc]

Someone needs to do an experiment. Hey maybe ABCA would pay for this one...

Start with an almost all white dog that is a good worker - works well and doesn't have any known weakness. Work him on a set number of different groups of sheep, and note the results on a subjective scale. Bring out the lady Clairol. Make him a red dog. Wait a few days. Work him on the same groups of sheep. Note the results. Lady Clairol again. Make him a merle dog. Repeat the process. Lady Clairol again. Make him a black dog.

I would bet that after the initial "look-see" by the sheep, that the dog's INTENT, EYE and STYLE, and Way of working (confident, quiet, nervous, etc) determines how the sheep react more than the color.

IMHO, Colors definitely HAVE been selected against in working lines for some practical reasons - not necessarily because of "weakness" in the colored dogs. In the UK if a litter happens to have a red, or in a merle/solid breeding, working folks would probably choose the black dogs, and the colors might be left for pet or small/hobby farms. The colored dogs might not not have the opportunity to go on to be proven as top workers/trialers. When I was in the UK, I went to see a reknowned trialer/shepherd works his dogs. The tall grass on the hill was just the color of a red dog, and we could hardly see his black dog with the distance and the mist. A red or merle would have been invisible to us. In Ireland as well, the rocky terrain where many sheep graze would camouflage a merle or red very easily. A hill/working shepherd would want to be able to see his dog out there, a black dog a few hundred rough acres away is easier to spot than a red or a merle.

[J.E.S]

The most powerful BCs I've known had solid black faces, although several were related.

My white face dog is fairly powerful. There have been a number of Supreme Champions that were white faced. Zac (a GGGrandfather to my Seth in the pic here) Wisp, Spot, Shep. Just to name a few.

 

[J.E.S]

And I just remembered, two of those dogs I mentioned were two time Supreme Champions. Looking through my book of Supreme Champions I realize how different they all look. Some look like spaniels, some like setters, some like hound dogs. All have different markings and coat. Ears are every which way they could be. But they all had one thing in common....great work ability.

[Liz P]

Laurie, that is exactly what I noticed, the colored BCs could be very hard to spot in some light and weather conditions. I've had a few heart stopping moments when I couldn't see my red dog. I would imagine it would be pretty hard to give commands if you couldn't even see your dog.

[Kerrigan]

First of all I'd like to say hello. I've been reading the BC Boards for about two years - so much great information on these boards and so many knowlegable people. I haven't registered before now because I have AKC dogs and show in conformation. I've been bitten by the herding bug pretty hard though and my thinking has changed quite a bit in the last couple of years. I have been taking 2-4 of my dogs to herding lessons once a week for about 18 mos. Its my Zen time and the most fulfilling thing I have ever done with my dogs. I do understand and respect your views. I really want to learn as much as I can about herding and becoming a better handler, so hope you won't mind if I ask questions occasionally.

 

Anyway, I'm finding this conversation regarding colors and how the stock react pretty interesting. I have a blue dog who is a rather pushy girl and she doesn't seem to have any trouble with the sheep at my trainers, but don't know how she would do with sheep somewhere else. I've got a 1 yr old black & white boy who has blue eyes and a white stripe all the way his butt who also does just fine, but he's still very young and really hasn't had extremely challenging sheep so don't rally know about him either. I do notice that the same set of sheep may give his mom (traditional blk & wht) problems, but not him. She's a much, much weaker dog than he is though.

 

Do cattle tend to work any differently for non-traditionally marked dogs?

[Liz P]

I would think the sheep would react to a blue dog as if it was black unless it was a very pale color.

 

I tell people that herding is meditation for my dogs. They come off the field happy, calm and knowing that all is right with the world. It changes them in a way I can't describe. Before herding they are perfectly happy, but after they start to take lessons they know their purpose in life and have a new found confidence.

[Howdyjabo]

I "think" cattle are not as reactive to seeing dogs period-- so I think the color issue is really even more of a non issue with them.

 

Maybe ?????? why 'color" dogs are more prominent in cattledog lines compared to sheepdog lines.

 

Personally I love my mostly white dog-- I can keep track of her with perifrial(sp) vision- the Black w white tips-- I have to scan for to find them.And since its cattle the white doesn't blend in with the white sheep.

 

Still bred her to B/W -- I'll just appreciate the white when it pops up all on its own.

[PennyT]

I saw a black and white picture from the 1920's, I think, of what had to be one the ugliest merles ever with one blue-eye, very dark coloration, almost a smooth coat, and built like greyhound or lurcher cross. I gave the book to a friend who breeds merles, a subject we argue about fairly often, out of a sense of fairness because the dog was standing next to a trophy from a sheepdog trial, and I thought she would enjoy the historical evidence. Unfortunately her house blew down so I probably can't find out the name of the book. It was a reprint. About pamphlet size. Anyone know?

 

For your consideration, I offer a slightly different take on the B/W issue. Imagine for a moment that border collies with black or mostly black mouths really are in general better workers. I'll pose the assertion (for which I hasten to add I have no genuine evidence other than from my own dogs) as something like this: of a sample of good to great working border collies more will have black or mostly black mouths than will be found in a sample of poor to nonworkers.

 

The old saw about black or mostly black mouths may be an artifact of black coats. Nevertheless, mostly black or black and white prevalence in good workers could come from people actually looking for a black to mostly black mouth.

 

Shoot, it might even be true. I used to scoff at it. Then I started opening my dogs' mouths and sure enough. Nah. It had to be coincidence. It must be coincidence.

[Liz P]

Do you mean the hard pallate? I can't remember a single BC with anything more than spots on its tongue.

[PennyT]

The roof the mouth.

 

And probably elsewhere, too, like around the gums to some extent but not the tongue like a chow, at least not totally blue like a chow although I do not want to say that would not be good. In fact, I am not saying that the dark coloration in the mouth is good. I am pointing out that dark mouth coloration on the roof of the mouth and maybe gums and maybe to some extent on the tongue was considered good and maybe that folk wisodm is right and maybe it's not.

 

I don't care one way or the other in the manner that someone might who has a merle, red, white, or sandy colored border collie might have an emotional investment. I am just noting that this notion of looking for a dark mouth existed and that it might be true. The fact that my own dogs lined up in terms of darker mouths astounds me but does not make me a believer on that limited evidence.

[laurie etc]

I've heard that comment about the black "roof of the mouth" from a few people, That's how they'll choose a puppy to keep from a litter. So it must work in more than just your dogs, Penny. Hmmm...

By the way, just checking my dogs - my old red bitch has a lot of Brown vs. Pink in her mouth - do you think that counts? Judging from my dogs, generally the ones with the most black or brown have "tougher" personalities than the less pigmented ones. I'd say the three least pigmented are probably the most biddable and/or soft.

[Liz P]

Out of curiosity I looked in my dogs' mouths. The ones I consider good sheepdogs had dark (black or red) hard pallates, the herding flunk out has a pink HP. The best of the bunch had the most pigment. Hum... Anyone else care to look at their dogs?

[workindogs]

Don't forget.....3 white whiskers! You need 3 white whiskers AND a black mouth.

[PennyT]

Oh, yes, Elizabeth, exactly my first response a few years ago.

 

Go check. I hope your results do not tally with mine.

 

The adage may be all wrong and a problem with observation. I sure hope so because I am not happy with the idea that the black/dark mouth adage may be right.

 

Being biddable did not count in my equation. I simply noted who was better, biddable or not, soft or not, powerful or not. I have no idea whether Laurie is using soft as the opposite of power, which most of us don't. I was not thinking of softness per se. I was rating my own dogs in terms of my own notions of skills, talents, and abilities. Softness, willingness to listen, and power are three different qualities. They can fit together in many different ways to make a good dog.

[Liz P]

Yeah, to make a valid claim one would have to look in the mouths of thousands of dogs. So, who wants to do it?