Liz P Posted March 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 The parents are black and white. Only two pups in the litter were that color. In the pic you can see three pups there is a black and white, though you can only see his head. Statistically there is a 1 in 16 chance that each pup from that particular mating will be chinchilla gray. What is odd is that those alleles happened to be brought together in a mating to produce that color in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 I didn't get to see! If you put the picture in photobucket.com and post it on here, you can remove it later and it will no longer show up. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonya Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Liz, Thank you so much for getting permission to post those pictures. I am amazed! They really are chinchilla, and the genetic "luck" that came into producing them is mind blowing. Well, I think now I can say I have seen a Border Collie in every possible color! (Well maybe not calico!) Tonya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 I've never seen anything like it either, but if I had a pup like this, I'd definitely be naming it Tweed! Can you go into more detail about the genetics, Liz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 I've seen ovcharka pups this color and they call them agouti gray. BC's, now that's interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Liz, I second Eileen's request. I'd love to know the genetics behind this. I did see the pup that looked like it might be regular B&W, but wasn't sure if I could tell that from just the head. And then I saw that at least two pups were the chinchilla color, so wanted to know how many in the litter got that unusual gene combination. Are they both the same sex (i.e., is the color sex linked)? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veronz Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 I happen to hve a Blue Merle BC, he is born in Perth. Here are some photos to share: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 They look like just Blue Merles to me, without the black spots. Is that black outlining their color? Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 The guard hairs are white with black tips, like a Siberian Husky. The undercoat is white. I think the pups are... B? E? achach (chinchilla) ayay (sable) From what I have read chinchilla only restricts tan/brown from showing up and does not cause banding. So from my understanding of the gene a dog that is B? achach will just look black unless they have a modifier gene that causes bands of tan/brown in the coat. I guessed the modifier was sable (ay), which causes tan hairs with a black tip because the parents were black and white so the modifier could not be agouti (Ag) which is dominant. Merles have solid colored guard hars. Some are black or red and the rest have been diluted to blue or lilac. Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 I have a friend who thinks she had one of these. The sire went back to Whiterose lines and the dam was American bred farm stock from out west - the sire was tri and the dam was black and white. It took forever for her to figure out what color the pup was! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Does your friend have photos? I would love to see what they look like all grown up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerrigan Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 What an interesting color. I like the darker coloration "mask" around the eyes. It would be really interesting to see what their adult coats look like. One of my BC's is a blue and has white guard hairs tipped with black (like sable, but white instead of tan) in a wide cross that forms across her shoulders and down her back (like the dark haired cross on a burrow). You have to brush her coat back to see it the cross though. Her rear feathers are completely comprised of this coloration as is most of her tail which gives it a frosty/silvery appearance (hence the nickname Frost Butt). From the time she was born until she was about 4 wks old, she frosted/silver tipped appearance to her coat. Very different from other the other blue BC pups I have had. Then she went to looking like a regular blue pup and when her adult hair grew in that's when the white hairs with black tips appeared. Her dam, who is blue, doesn't have it and her sire was black & white. Anyway, I've wondered if the black tipped white guard hairs in her coat would be considered agouti or maybe sable, although I've never heard of a blue sable. Not really sure what type of coloring it is or what to call it. Here are her shoulders Here is her rump Here are her rear feathers Whole dog Last as a pup at 10 days. She's the gray pup on the right. Its the only picture I have of her that small and it doesn't really show the frosty cast to her coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Dice undercoat and feathers is the same Jeanne's female that she showed above. The pup that Dice had that is the same color as her was also born a grayish color. Not as light but when put up with another pup it is seen. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerrigan Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Katelynn ~ Just curious. Are Dice's guard hairs are like that all over or just in certain areas? Is her undercoat a different color in different areas? Bunny's undercoat is a very light gray, almost white in the areas where the guard hairs have this coloration and a much darker gray in the other areas. Was Dice a lighter color as a puppy also? Maybe she is just a very dark blue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Two of my related dogs (aunt and niece) have areas like that where the bottom half of the guard hair is white but the top half that shows is colored (black on one dog, red on the other). On the red bitch there is a patch on her shoulder and on the base of her tail. The black bitch only has a patch of it at the base of her tail. They are related through the Fieldstone Holly, Spook, Dingo litter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Ummmm . . . *Calls Dice* Her guard hairs that would be where the sadle on a sable would be are black with about 1/4 of the hair shaft white. In the most solid spots of this color there is pretty much no undercoat. Then when I come closer to where sable would be the white on the guard hairs turn to more of a gray/red color on about 2/4 of the hair shaft with some light gray undercoat. When I come to where the sable would be the gray/red color takes up 3/4 or more (some strands all that color) of the shaft with a heavy undercoat that is the light gray color. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 I don't think the light underhair is anything special. Solo's coat is just like that and he's just plain old red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodi Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Jeanne - What is the breeding on that girl if you don't mind my asking ... Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerrigan Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Hi Jodi ~ No, I don't mind you asking. She's a Barbie Collie though and not a working BC. All my dogs are AKC registered. She's out of NZ, OZ and UK import lines. Maghera, Charttop, and Clan-Abby mostly with a few others thrown in here and there. I have her dam also and bred the litter, but 6 years ago I wasn't into herding at all. Like Tonya, I don't want to argue about the AKC. I do understand and respect the views of this board. I'm here, because I do respect those views and because I want to learn more about herding and becoming a better handler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerrigan Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Hi Melanie ~ I hadn't seen the black tipped white guard hairs or the white rear feathers on another BC before that was solid colored. I didn't know if it was common or not, but it sounds like it is. Granted, a good majority of the BC's I see are AKC dogs. I hadn't seen it on any of the rescues I've evaluated or on BC's in my agility classes, herding lessons or flyball tournaments either and many of those dogs are from ABCA lines. I was just curious to find out if there was a name for it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Jeanne, If I am correct, the white is just a lack of pigment in the hair shaft. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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