Liz P Posted March 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 No, they were VERY light. Dice looks more like a dark sable. In chinchilla gray the dog cannot have ANY tan/yello/brown anywhere on its body. Let me find some more husky pics that show the color better. The pups were literally THIS color but distributed in the usual irish spotting pattern. http://www.northwapiti.com/images/butch01.jpg http://www.northwapiti.com/images/grover_scan4.jpg http://www.northwapiti.com/images/barq505-4.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Theresa Chu was at Lacys' variety trial last September and did BAER testing for free - I think ABCA or another group or company, or her research project, sponsored and paid for it. I think they are hoping to have her back again this September (Labor Day weekend). I had both my dogs tested - you could make an appointment (the schedule went a little unevenly at times, but I think everybody got done who wanted to be done). She was very nice and emailed results to those who wanted them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Okay, now you guys have me totally confused about colors. Katelynn's beautiful dog looks like just about every tri in my kennel minus the eye spots and tan on the cheeks. I have 7 tri's and all but 2 have the tan undercoat showing through like that. I don't think of them as sable, but simply tri with a tan undercoat. Renee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:I have 7 tri's and all but 2 have the tan undercoat showing through like that. I don't think of them as sable, but simply tri with a tan undercoat. Renee I was thinking that too- her "tan" is just more mahogany than some. I've seen tri's with only a few silverish hairs around the cheeks, rear and hocks;and some with a ton of tan undercoat all around the head and lower body and full tan face. I though Sable was where the upper body hairs are "banded" with black tips on a light hair shaft - like a Sable Sheltie... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Sue Asten's Brook (littermate of my Jody) has a tan undercoat along with the rich tri markings (copper in color). Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Laurie and Renee, I think y'all have seen my Willow. She looks like a standard tri, but her undercoat is somewhat buff colored. On top of that, although her head appears to be black, if you ruffle the hair, you will see that it is actually brown/copper with black tips. I have been told this is "extended tri." But I find it interesting that it's also the same color pattern (brown hair/black tip) that you see in sables. Does anyone know how the genetics on that work? Too bad we can't see pictures of the actual pups in question so we know what "chinchilla" really looks like. To me the huskies have a color pattern not much different from tris with a brown undercoat, except that in the case of the huskies it appears to be a white undercoat showing through (but then maybe it's white hair with black tips--I don't have a husky handy to actually examine the hairs on....) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 just thought I'd pass this website along - http://skyway.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Yep, Julie. I know what you're describing in Willow. That's what I'm talking about with my guys. Didn't know there was a fancy name for it though. When Starr is shedding her coat, both spring and fall, she looks really weird for about 2 weeks. During those couple of weeks, her head is very noticeably brown. She has about as much visible brown on her head as black. Eventually, the black either fills in or the tan sheds out and she goes back to having a black head with a lot of tan underneath. She actually always has a little bit of tan on her head that's part of her outercoat. Renee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Julie, yes many ?show? breeders do glue ears. And what you have seen is a ?sample? of breeders. The reason this is done is for expression. Remember, in a show ring the dog only has a few minutes to make his presence known, and so expression is sometimes helpful. I got the impression that ears were important to conformation people when two told me my red dog Solo had "turned out nice for a working dog" and that it was "a shame about his ears" (because his don't match -- one stands up and one tips). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Yes, I am talking about white guard hairs with black tips. I do have pics of the chinchilla gray pups saved on my computer. I am just waiting for permission from the breeder to share them with everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Dice and Brook look like very dark sables to me. Doesn't sable come in a range of patterns and colors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonya Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Originally posted by SoloRiver: Julie, yes many ?show? breeders do glue ears. And what you have seen is a ?sample? of breeders. The reason this is done is for expression. Remember, in a show ring the dog only has a few minutes to make his presence known, and so expression is sometimes helpful. I got the impression that ears were important to conformation people when two told me my red dog Solo had "turned out nice for a working dog" and that it was "a shame about his ears" (because his don't match -- one stands up and one tips). Melanie, Sigh. I am sorry someone told you this. Just don't lump us all in the same catagory, okay? Solo is a beautiful dog. "bad" ears or not! Tonya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Yes, I'd say Dice was a tri color too. But she was bred to a red tri and had two red tri coloreds, four reds, and two true black. Isn't it if two tri colored dogs are bred, they have all tri colored puppies? This is the only reason I never considered her a tri color. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Kate -That is curious! You are right - two tri's should produce all tri's - sometimes it is not expressed with much "tri color" - but there would be at least some tan hairs (or red) under the tail area and probably on the cheeks. Does Kate have tan (or mahogany) in her "vent" area? That would be another way to tell if the red in her is tri marking vs. sable. Are her guard hairs (top coat) red with black tips, or solid black? Or is it just her undercoat that is red? If she is tri, maybe she passed tri to all the pups but it wasn't expressed as a distinct color difference in all of them. Hmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 I looked really closely at my dog's coats last night, and if being a sable is simply having hairs that change from black to tan to black, then I have 5. Personally, I still think they are tri's. I've always thought of the brown underneath as simply a tri thing. I don't consider any of them to be particularly unusual looking for tri's. My 2 tri's that don't show this feature are both rough coated (the others are smooth). I wondered if that had anything to do with it. That is unusual about Dice. Renee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 FWIW I can believe Dice is not a tri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Years ago, a woman with a British accent slowed down in her car while I waited to cross with Pete at my side and she said "You know what you've got there?" "A sable border collie". And she drove off. Sable are black tipped hairs, but the saddle part on Pete was completely black. Same goes for Flick. They have *sabling* in the transition from the black to brown, but does that make them sable? The BC museum calls them saddle backed tri's. I'll go with that. Pete: Flick: sorry for the picture quality Flick & Pete: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Here's Satchmo. What would he be? I think technically he's a tri, although the brown on him is brindled, but he is not brindle: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 To me Satchmo is really cute and a brindled tri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Dice's gaurd hairs are ringed black and white. The very top part is black, then there is a ring or rings of white. Some are also half and half. Her feathers/vent area is salt and peper in color. I do not believe she has any tan anywhere on her, she is just black, red, and gray/blue/purple in color. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Had to share! Here is Fluke, one of her two tri puppies. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy H. Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 I've been reading the color thread with some interest (I don't post much but hi to those of you I've met!) Now I have a question. I got a new border collie recently and I finally realized what it is that looks odd (beautiful of course but odd). She's a smooth coated tri with a totally red-brown muzzle. Not a speck of white. And actually the top of her head, altho it looks black is brown/red underneath. Her head looks a lot like a Kelpie head actually (black and brown). Seems to me that some white on the muzzle is very common and no white at all is pretty rare (usual disclaimers about color not being important... but interesting apply). What is your all's experience? Kathy PS Her name is Dirt BTW because of her muzzle (no I didn't name her). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy H. Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Oops, just looked again. She has a black 'stripe' down the middle of her face/nose and brown on the sides but no white on her face (yes on her legs). Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Kathy, that is called "self colored" when there is no white on the face. It's not as common as Irish spotting but it's not rare either. I put some pics of the chinchilla gray pups on the internet. I'll be deleting the web page once people have had a chance to take a look at them. http://www.geocities.com/bordercolliesleddog/graypups Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Wow, interesting. I've certainly never seen anything like it. Thanks for posting the pictures so we could see what you were talking about. I went back and read what you said about the parents and the necessity of 4 alleles being present to get that color. Are all the pups in the litter colored that way? If so, that's a pretty unusual genetic coincidence, isn't it? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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