poor breeding thread

[Howdyjabo]

Go Eileen-- I think you are doing just fine. You have a thankless job--that you are not even getting paid for. Useless aggravation should not be tolerated.

And Pearse you should have a little more respect and compassion for what Eillen has to put up with.

Shes upfront and dirrect-- and a cool cucumber to boot.Coulnd't think of a better moderator to have.

I think you should concider an apology-- if not for challanging her--at least for doing it publicly instead of privately.

Somehow I get the feeling you posted to somehow build yourself up at Eileens expense-personally I think it backfired .

[Bill Fosher]

Eileen,

 

I side with Pearse on this. And not just to see if Andrea is polyanderous.

 

On another forum, I am trying to defend a very unpopular stand, and I suppose I could be called a troll there. You have read my writings at pretty close to their worst for trollishness, but fortunately they were private -- should I have been banned if I comported myself as such on these boards?

 

Is the issue anonymity? If so, it seems you got what you wanted -- it just wasn't sent to you in the format your requested. At that point it starts to read like a power trip.

 

I recognize that this is your sandbox and you can let anyone play or not play with the trucks, and you can set whatever rules you see fit. There is absolutely no requirement for you to be fair. But I recognize that you usually try to be, and I think you've perhaps let someone get under your skin in this case.

[Denise Wall]

I fully support Eileen. Moderating a list such as this every day for years is difficult and stressful. I know, I have been there. I admire her patience and consistency.

[Black Watch Debatable]

AK dog doc wrote:

I don't think the problem is that Destructo proposed things that he thought we don't want to talk about, or that he wanted to confront issues, or even that he made a variety of unfounded, unsupported and incorrect contentions as if they were the gospel truth and without apparant regard for those he might injure or insult by those contentions. I think the problem is that, when asked to abide by the rules of this community, he resorted to sarcasm, insult, rudeness and personal attack.

Great post, dog doc. Fierce debates and strong feelings have always found support here. 'Roid rage, not so much.

[PennyT]

The quote that spells out Destructo's agenda is: "If you can't handle me, who is trying to read up on all the stupid shit people have done with my breed of choice in the last 14 years before I purchase another BC and perhaps even start my own breeding program, why do you even bother with a website? You could be of service, but instead you're acting like a spoiled brat."

 

If Destructo was reading up on this website, then he should have been aware that full AKC recognition along with vastly increased breeding for conformation and nonlivestock related dog sports comprises most of the stupid shit. It seems unlikely that 14 years ago he knew anything about border collies either.

 

Most of Destructo's hostility seems to have arisen from outrage at the thought that he doesn't know enough to make good judgements about how border collies should be bred.

 

He's furious because he doesn't want to put in the time to learn. He apparently realizes how difficult and time consuming that would be, which is a good thing made into a negative by his blustering about how origins and the defining qualities of the breed don't matter. Chances are that he'll be buying from someone breeding away from border collies or breeding away from that himself (oh, I hope not). He doesn't want to improve the breed as it exists. He thinks it is okay to bypass breeding for the very qualities that have made border collies great agility dogs.

 

Destructo had a tantrum when informed he was ignorant.

 

I think his attitude is a fairly common one. Many people think any idiot can breed good dogs. Destructo has a high opinion of his own intelligence, doubtless regards himself as more intelligent than most border collie breeders, and therefore believes he can define what makes great border collies a priori.

 

Lessons in working livestock and in working a dog on livestock would be good for him.

 

The morn arose on full recognition of the border collie several years ago. A bit before that Eileen turned someone around who argued as vigorously as Destructo if less rudely. This person is learning to trial in open now and has a significant presence on the net. I admire her. High time I said so.

 

I wish the morn would rise on people like Destructo being turned around by reason. It is not enough to favor ruthless culling when he has no idea what should be culled for and might be lost or improved. Learning may mean moving to where he can have livestock or rent a field. If Destructo wants to make pronouncements on the order that he has then he owes the border collie as a breed at least that much.

 

Penny

[muddy bob]

A very wise person once advised me against wrestling with pigs. The pig only likes it and you get dirty. You did the right thing.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Again, I'm surprised and disappointed that anyone could see this as my intolerance of an unpopular stand. Amazed, actually. Bill, you and I have vigorously disagreed over more than one issue, both privately AND on the Boards, and there has never been a moment when it occurred to me to avoid further debate with you, still less to ban you from these Boards. (And you're a very effective spokesman for your point of view, so if I feared argument challenging my beliefs, you'd be the first to go. ) Sometimes in the heat of prolonged debate people say things that may go a little over the top, but that's a totally different matter from being a troll, and a totally different matter from what went on here. I cannot imagine you swaggering onto an internet board, posting a barrage of deliberately offensive posts, and refusing to identify yourself to the moderator of that board. If you did, I expect you'd be banned.

 

>

 

I have not gotten the information I asked for. Instead, I got called paranoid, close minded and condescending, and accused of hostility, playing stupid games, and acting like a spoiled brat. And apparently you think the appropriate response to that would be for me to restore this person's posting privileges? If I have any concerns about whether this person's participation on the Boards would be hostile and destructive, it must be because I'm on a power trip? Weird.

 

>

 

Well, it's possible that I didn't form a good impression of this guy from his posts and his email to me. Gotta give you that. But my main concern is what's good for the Boards, and for their purpose. This isn't the first internet board or list that I've been on, nor the first one that I've moderated. I've seen how one person bent on playing "uproar" can join an internet community and sour the atmosphere to the point that it's no longer a place where people want to be. In determining whether "destructo" intends that kind of destruction, I have nothing to go on but his posts and his email. The negative far outweighs the positive in his posts, IMO, as far as contributing to constructive discussion on the Boards is concerned. And the fact that he won't comply with a civil request for basic information, the nature of his response when asked, and his repeated re-registrations and posting such things as my name, address and telephone number (in posts I've deleted), tells me that he intends to be an ongoing problem on the Boards.

 

The bottom line, as you recognize, is that the one who puts in the time and effort to keep a board going is the one who makes the decisions in matters like this, for better or for worse. Thanks to you and everyone else for your input. Now let's move on from admin matters and back to our regularly scheduled topics. Anything else y'all want to say on this subject, please email me privately.

[concrete]

Even though I found Destructo highly entertaining and did not take him seriously at all I do understand Eileen banning him from the board because most people do not share my somewhat unusual sensabilities.

On the other hand I find Destructo to be no danger to the working Border Collie as a breed. I do think the people who argue for all kinds of restrictions on working breeders from positions of no less ignorance of the true nature of the breed but in a very rational and reasoned way to be a very real danger and possible the final down fall of the breed.

 

Kevin

[Eileen Stein]

This thread is now closed. Thanks to everyone for expressing your views. If you have anything further to say about the admin issue, you are welcome to email me privately at eileen@bordercollie.org. I am leaving Kevin's post up because it is mainly addressed not to the admin issue but to relative dangers to the working border collie breed. If anyone would care to respond to that portion of his post, please start a new thread quoting him. Thanks.