Split from the Gallery thread

[Sue R]

Donna - I think you might be surprised at the prejudice against colors that existed in the development of the working Border Collie. Whether or not those prejudices were valid, I can't say.

 

I do believe that much prejudice against tri-color and short coats (primarily among non-working folks) in our day is a reflection of the kennel club mentality which promotes one color pattern and one coat type over all others (no matter what they say). Because of it, many people who don't know any better, feel that any dog that isn't "traditional" black and white with "Irish" markings and a rough coat, can't be a purebred Border Collie.

 

There is no prejudice against tri-color in the UK - go and see some of the top triallers/trainers in the world, and how many of them run tri-color dogs at the very highest levels of competition and farm work. The same may be said for short coats (which many folks in the US have found to be very beneficial in some climate and vegetation zones).

 

There is long-standing prejudice against merles. Could that be based on birth defects associated with breeding merle to merle, or maybe that there just haven't generally been top-quality working dogs produced that were merle?

 

The same can be said for reds. Have there been very many red dogs that worked/trialled to the highest levels?

 

But, since there are folks that breed "for color" without breeding for true working quality, the impression that dogs of color aren't as good working quality as black-and-white and tri-color, will be perpetuated.

 

None of this is saying that there can't be merles or reds that are working/trialling at the very top - it's just saying that it hasn't been the case generally, and the black-and-white and tri-color dogs have been overwhelmingly successful at those levels. The track record is there for all to see.

[juliepoudrier]

Donna,

What Sue said. In fact there was a very real prejudice against red dogs in the UK. I think that is changing now (since a red dog won the Internation Supreme in 2004, I think), but I doubt you'd see the number of red dogs at a trial there that you see here. But red isn't something that needs to be deliberately bred for--red occurs in some of the most famous working border collie lines, so it will happen without the need for planning. Merle and the "designer" colors you see in the sport world (and some of the show world) just didn't occur with any regularity in the breeding of working dogs, largely because they would have to be *chosen for,* which of course goes against the idea of breeding for working ability.

 

My own bitch carries red. If I wanted red pups (which are quite popular here), I could certainly get them. But when looking at potential studs, the color of the dog or any recessives he might carry is of absolutely *no* consideration. The only exception to that is I wouldn't breed to a white factored dog because my bitch is white factored. But that's not a color choice--it's a health choice, one intended to eliminate the risk of producing white headed, and therefore potentially deaf, puppies.

 

If there were superior "working dogs of color" out there then perhaps we'd see more of them in the general working dog population. But there aren't and traditionally haven't been. (And maybe that was because the shepherds who developed the breed consciously chose against it--but in doing so they still created the breed we have today, and just as we argue about not being able to put the work back in the bench show dogs, I don't think you can take special colors and put the work back in them either. JMO of course.) That means that such dogs are being bred *for* the color, and to get that color the breeder is making compromises on working ability (because the best working dog that could be bred to might not be bred to because it doesn't carry the potential of a special color, and the law of averages would rule when it comes to what color the best working dogs will be...).

 

As for this thread, I have to admit that when I went to Maggie's web site I couldn't quite get what she was doing, largely because of my own perceptions. When I refer to a working border collie, I mean specifically stockwork, so that's what I thought she meant. As I read through the site, I gathered that she meant great working ability, with work being defined mainly as SAR. While I respect that she's breeding dogs that are useful for the type of work she does with them, I don't quite see how breeding for SAR work in any way conserves the livestock working ability in border collies, and it's the livestock working ability that defines/defined the breed, not SAR or any other job birder collies also happens to excel at. After sparking a long and heated discussion on an e-mail list with my complaint about using "working" to apply to something other than stockwork, I realize that I am apparently in the minority in my narrow definition of the term. But the hairsplitting of semantics does have a reason, and that reason is because these dogs were developed to work livestock first and foremost, and so claiming to be breeding for working ability when you don't work livestock is misrepresenting what you're doing. That's not a slam at Maggie, as I'm sure most folks who don't keep livestock would never even make the distinction (for good or ill).

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

Donna, if I come up to Espyville, will you introduce me to the farmer with the pipe wrench? He is the first person I've ever heard of (other than conformation folks) with a prejudice against tri-color border collies. They are as common as B&W at trials both here and in the UK. A few puppy millers who charge by color actually charge more for them.

 

That said, I would never interpret "colors" in a border collie sense as including tri, which as I've already said is as common and unremarkable as dirt. "Colors" means merle, sable, blue, lemon, lilac, red and the like -- the novelty colors, usually recessive, that are so often produced by "color breeders" because they are easy to breed for and can be held up to the ignorant buyer as "rare" and "unusual" (and priced accordingly). They are a puppy mill staple.

 

Note: I am NOT suggesting that Maggie is a puppy mill. She is obviously the furthest thing from a puppy mill, and I didn't see any post that in any way could be interpreted as suggesting that she was profiteering. But "breeding for color" is probably tainted in most people's minds by the fact that bad breeders are usually the ones who do it (at least here in the US), besides the fact that it's detrimental to breeding for working ability.

[sea4th]

bcherder, if I come up to Espyville, will you introduce me to the farmer with the pipe wrench? He is the first person I've ever heard of (other than conformation folks) with a prejudice against tri-color border collies. They are as common as B&W at trials both here and in the UK. A few puppy millers who charge by color actually charge more for them.

H--L, Eileen, I'll introduce you to him. The old SOB takes the tri newborns and whacks them up against the side of the barn. Black and Whites sell better in his opinion. And that is what he is known for -- strictly black and white border collies---all from working lines. We've seen some of his dogs come through rescue with dysplasia and flaky temperaments----but they are black and white and black and white is what the public wants. I guess it would be to his credit that he culls epileptic dogs---but that wouldn't be apparent until they are older and by then, he's had a few litters out of them and by then, pups that may be carriers are long gone.

 

This guy is not an evil green monster with horns. He's a retired beef farmer who no longer has cows and uses border collies to supplement his income instead. He's been doing this for 40 years(?). Charming old bastard, that one is.

 

I've seen one of his stud dogs, a son of Diaz's Roy? The dog's mind is gone. He's been on a chain for most of his life. The dog's eyes are rolling in his head. But he is a handsome Black and white and still has his balls so he can sire more pups!

 

There is another miller in the area who has some of this guy's dogs only these people don't care what color it is. As long as it's purebred and has a uterus. We currently have one of theirs in rescue now. Really pretty black and white dog, BTW.

[Eileen Stein]

Well, he may be charming, but he doesn't have much business sense, depleting his salable goods that way. It's just simply not true that black and white is what the public wants. Look at the People's Border Collie Gallery, for crying out loud. Or look at Swafford's current crop of Puppies for Sale. You can't say that's not a guy who knows what the public will buy.

[Jodi]

How is Swafford still getting away with selling ABCA registered pups?

 

Jodi

[Eileen Stein]

Some of the pups he lists were not bred by him -- he takes them on consignment from another breeder and puts them up on his website.

 

We have also had complaints that when selling pups which he did breed he gives the buyer paperwork for the CKC and tells them they can switch the paperwork to the ABCA if they want, but he just doesn't want to deal with the ABCA. Which of course is false -- the dogs can't be registered with the ABCA -- but by the time the buyer learns this s/he's already paid for the pup, and is very likely attached to it.

[Jodi]

Oh how frustrating.

[Sue R]

The several folks I have met that have been ignorant or gullible enough to buy pups from Swa**ord (and his like) have had problems galore - ill health (and once you are attached, how can you send a pup back, particularly to that he**hole), registration difficulties, etc.

 

As has been often pointed out, folks that are determined to exploit the dogs and the general public will find a way around regulations that are meant to avoid irresponsible breeding, misleading marketing, and inhumane conditions. Folks that know what they are doing and do it right, don't need the regulations.

[sea4th]

The last time I was at the old retired beef farmer's place was a couple of years ago, to retrieve a dog who was sold by the breeder, exchanged hands a few times and wound up in this miller's hands. The breeder paid to get him back. It was a January night, in the '20's outside, and the barn was unheated. The dog with the rolling eyes was still there on his little chain, blank to the world. There was also a newbie male who apparently hadn't been there long enough to lose his mind. But what I'll never forget is one lone puppy sitting in a wooden box, bare but for a few pieces of hay, with his dam chained right there. This pup was 3 weeks old. There were five but 4 died because it had been a cold winter. This lone survivor of the litter was sitting up and growling at us. Mom was posturing for attention.

 

This old guy will deal with working breeders only. And yes, I've seen some of the pups that he sold working. Some were keen, some were not, but it was painful to watch some of them bunny hop working sheep. Many I've seen were neurotic. Maybe it's no doubt with the start in life they've had.

 

He told us, last time we were there. "I used to charge 100.00 for my dogs. I'm asking 150.00 fer them now. I hear that in the city, they charge 350.00 for them!". Business sense. No. But this is a relic from another era.

[Howdyjabo]

Hes even advertising for foster homes for the pups hes selling????

 

Is there any way to get him from the back door-- like zoning regulations? Or neighbor complaints?

Local Kennel registry? Even state taxes-- someone like him is supposed to be charging sales tax here in NC.Get a Lawyer and have a group suit against him for misrepresentation.

 

You did good getting him out of ABCA-- even if it doesn't help the dogs or stop him.

[Denise Wall]

It looks like he has grown since I was there. How depressing. Plus it looks like he's learned from other puppy selling web sites how to maximize the advertising of his lines with all the emphasis on Ch working dogs, even far back in the pedigree, highlighted in caps and all. A real salesman that one.

[Sue R]

I wonder how Tom and Karen, and Alasdair, and others would feel if they were aware of his using their names to help sell his dogs?

[Carson Crazies]

I eat popcorn every day between 3pm and 3:30 pm. I ate it for breakfast 2 days last week. I also eat freshly baked chocolate chip cookies for breakfast. Michelle is right, I *thought* we were having lighthearted banter... so I appologize. I can see in rereading where it could have been construed as sharks circling, but I certainly didn't mean it that way.

 

I was actually anticipating an intellectual and respectful conversation. I was looking forward to participating on Saturday, but unfortunately life called me away. When I said welcome to Maggie, I really meant it. I knew we were in for interesting discussion and an opportunity to learn from each other. Additionally, any of you who know me, however, know that I am "the great avoider" when it comes to conflict and certainly not only do not relish it, but pretty much avoid it if it starts. However, discussion that isn't personally attacking I enjoy. Far be it from me to circle around waiting to pounce on someone.

 

As for Cave Trolls... a Cave Troll is a particuarly big, fat, ugly troll that pushes the gear wheel thingie on Lord of the Rings (#2). Yes, I watch entirely too many movies. I likened my mood last week to the image in my mind of a Cave Troll. However, I'm typically pretty satisfied to take it out on myself, or make myself scarce if I feel like I need to take it out on someone else. Sometimes I forget that everyone else didn't follow the progression in my mind though... so again I appologize. Actually it more or less was off topic and irrelevant to the issue at hand and had more to do with chatter than anything particularly meaningful.

 

As for interesting reading... I posted the link to the welcome thread on the boards because I wanted to make sure that if Maggie was being called to this thread that she had plenty of time to read over that thread first. I felt like it would be pretty unfair to bring her into the thread and then broadside her if she hadn't gotten to that thread yet. That thread quite eloquently states what the USBCC's goals and stands are on Border Collies, and also expresses the sentiments of the majority of the posters on this board. I didn't think it out of place (after seeing her website) to give some indication of the culture before she joined the thread.

 

The vast majority of the general public has no earthly idea that people like us exist. They have no idea that every day someone uses a dog to move their sheep. NEEDS that dog. CARES for that dog. The general public has no idea that many people have a four legged livestock working partner called a Border Collie. Many of them also don't realize that any other registry exists other than the Kennel Clubs. On some level they realize that Border Collies are "herding dogs" but they think they're just like every other show dog... used to do [insert job here] but we "don't need them anymore so they don't herd anymore". These people want a Border Collie because they're smart, and pretty (and Red or Merle or whatever pretty color you want to add). You know, those of us that appreciate the Border Collie have to go to bat. Maybe we're passionate. Good! Sometimes we have to just keep beating the drum. Sometimes we beat it quietly, but we still keep beating it - because somewhere someone can hear it.

 

Maggie, if you're still lurking (and I hope you are) I would love it one day if you pick up your drumsticks too. Regardless of that, while we may disagree with breeding practices I appreciate your devotion to your dogs and the work you put into them.

 

You know, Sue, I'd imagine they'd be pretty apalled. I would be. I wonder what can be done in a practical sense about things like this? I agree that banning characters like this from the ABCA is an excellent move. What are our defenses beyond that?? Seriously, I have thought about this alot.

 

I am, once again, off to pop some popcorn.

[PennyT]

I admire the explosives searching that Arnpriors does with her dogs, and I applaud it as well as her desire to learn about working her dogs on livestock.

 

I also am reasonably sure that Arnpriors would be justified in skepticism if someone crowed to her about their scent detection dogs on the basis of a dog finding a bit of hotdog at the end of a short track. Arnpriors would be equally justified in skepticism if the claim was made also on the basis of an ancestor of the dog having located a few treats at the end of several short tracks.

 

I occasionally read a Yahoo list called BC-L Continues that Arnpriors posts on. Here is a quote from her after taking two of her dogs to sheep once this January.

 

"This morning, on the way home from Cathy's, we stopped by at Keith's, to see what Token and Neo would be like on the sheep.

 

Token, only two generations away from ISDS, was too interested in me to take any notice of the sheep, whereas Neo, with at least eight generations of show breeding, in Australia behind him, was keen, very strong, but very willing to obey Keith, without being put off at all.

 

Goes to show, that not only is it impossible to breed the instinct out of them, but you don't need ISDS dogs only, to work sheep."

[sea4th]

Goes to show, that not only is it impossible to breed the instinct out of them, but you don't need ISDS dogs only, to work sheep

I think at first, any person who has not had the fortune to rely on border collies as stock dogs might be inclined to think the same, especially from a KC background. It's with venues like this, that most begin to question their original stance and come around to a different way of thinking. Perhaps in Maggie's case, because of her particular experience quoted above, she might question a little harder, but that's OK. The best converts don't come easy.

[bcherder]

I am NOT saying that tricolor bcs are considered a color......simply saying that people who don't really know the breed think that tricolor is unusual. I simply used this to point out the stigma colors/markings/coats that are not popular sometimes creates in people who don't know any better. Segregation against colors!!!

What an original thought...hmmm?

 

( I have all tri-color smooth coats myself)(*except one)

As far as the farmer that culls tris....yes he really does. I would be glad to take you to see him. His reasoning was that everyone wanted the pretty, long haired black and white pups.......no one wanted those ugly ones with brown on them .

If he wanted to make the " big bucks" he could only sell the blk. and whites. And his idea of big bucks was $100.00 a pup.

Even when he paid 500.00 for a son of Diaz's Roy, he sold those pups for 100.00

He offered to let me use this dog at stud because he thought I was impressed by his dogs and breeding practices. I asked how much for the stud fee, (gagging inside) and he said, yep, you can use him ......it'll be 100.00

He's thrown pups with epilepsy......and even though he took the seizing dogs out of the breeding pool...........he still bred the parents that produced them... (great logic..huh???)

[bcherder]

In my last post I meant to say he CONTINUED to breed the parents that produced the epileptic pups.

What's even worse........I knew a woman who bought a pup from him which turned out to be epileptic. When it died of old age.......she went BACK to him and got another. Guess what?

It was epileptic. What a shocker!!!

 

Vicki,

you forgot to mention that the black and white we have in for rescue right now ...is most likely severely displastic, (based on inability to climb stairs and bunnyhopping around yard...skinny under developed hind end) Yes...this is guess work until the xrays are done next week.

[Howdyjabo]

Thanks Laura-- I forget sometimes that people have no clue what they are diving into. And that working is used as a generic term.i don't think this is the case with Maggie but......

I apologise if I jumped too fast.

 

How about coming at this from a different dirrection.

 

Maggie breeds EXCEPTIONAL dogs-- no doubt in my mind.

 

Maggie lacks the background and experience to breed and market those same dogs as exceptional Border Collies.

They MAY very well be exceptional Border Collies-though the odds are against it. But they haven't been bred to conform to the true Breed standards--

 

In my mind she has two options if she truely values the Border Collie BREED.

 

One-- quit breeding until she and the dogs are capable of meeting the standards.

 

Two--- continue to breed exceptional dogs, do whatever with them(including conformation) But..... quit marketing them as Border Collies.

Merle Collie has a nice ring.

 

Either one whould put her very high in my esteme.

 

Read Key dogs --- would those breeders have bred dogs like yours(as they are now)

? If they wouldn't have than you shouldn't-- and still call them Border Collie.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Well, you introduced the subject by saying, "Killer H.........where did you get the crazy notion that colors are an oddity? Do you know how common the tri-colored border collie is?"

 

So I guess I misunderstood.

 

>

 

This does not sound to me like someone in learning mode. This sounds to me like someone in "already knows it all" mode.

[Denise Wall]

Token, only two generations away from ISDS, was too interested in me to take any notice of the sheep, whereas Neo, with at least eight generations of show breeding, in Australia behind him, was keen, very strong, but very willing to obey Keith, without being put off at all.

 

Goes to show, that not only is it impossible to breed the instinct out of them, but you don't need ISDS dogs only, to work sheep."

If one dog showed instinct and the other one didn't, then how is this a demonstration that it's impossible to breed the instinct out of them?

[PennyT]

Yes, I take your point. Good one.

 

It's in fact more complex than one dog not turning on at all because the post from Arnpriors does not tally with what an observer of this one encounter with sheep reported. The observer stated that the dog Arnpriors says showed no interest did well at first then started paying too much attention to Arnpriors and not enough or any to the sheep.

 

Sound like anything you have seen before? It does to me at any rate.

 

What astounded me about the statement was the you can't breed it out of them part written with absolute certainty and to a lesser extent the notion ISDS registration was a presumed requirement. I think the ISDS still has registration on merit.

 

Penny

[SoloRiver]

Am I missing something here?

 

I have been reading this discussion and thinking that Maggie has working bred dogs but simply doesn't work them.

 

Finally, I go to the website, and her dogs are Barbie Collies. I don't even see a point in trying to work these dogs on livestock, except for kicks. If she wants to breed dogs that work sheep, she certainly is starting with the wrong lines, regardless of what color they are.

 

They are gorgeous dogs, and I am sure they are exceptional dogs, but I don't consider them Border Collies at all. That's not an insult, simply a fact. My Papillon isn't a Border Collie either.

[Kyrasmom]

Two--- continue to breed exceptional dogs, do whatever with them(including conformation) But..... quit marketing them as Border Collies. Merle Collie has a nice ring.

They are gorgeous dogs, and I am sure they are exceptional dogs, but I don't consider them Border Collies at all. That's not an insult, simply a fact. My Papillon isn't a Border Collie either.

Like it or not, her dogs are Border Collies and will be so until/if there is a seperation of the breed. That is also a fact.

[SoloRiver]

Like it or not, her dogs are Border Collies and will be so until/if there is a seperation of the breed. That is also a fact.

 

First of all, the separation of the breed is there in everything but a formal sense. It's obvious to anyone who cares to notice, unless the only definition of "breed" you accept is based on registration and what it says on the dog's papers. I don't need a kennel club to tell me when there are two separate and distinct populations of dogs extant.

 

To me, and frankly to most of the people who were responsible for establishing breeds of domestic animals in the first place (otherwise we would not have breeds), "breed" means this: a population of animals that shares common ancestry, and breeds true for certain characteristics.

 

The common ancestry shared by Barbie Collies and Border Collies is, in many if not most cases, dozens of generations back. (And occasional infusions of working blood into Barbie lines doesn't mean much either, even if breeders do that.) Breed splits have been recognized, in other dogs, for far flimsier reasons. (Belgians, anyone?)

 

More importantly, however, these two populations of dogs have been bred for divergent characteristics for many generations. Working Border Collies do not reliably reproduce the characters that Barbie Collie breeders consider important -- indeed, definitive -- of their dogs (structure, expression, coat, markings). Barbie Collies do not reliably reproduce working ability or drive as associated with and required by useful livestock herding dogs.

 

That is a fact.

 

If you select for different characteristics, you will end up with different dogs.

 

THAT is a fact.

 

There's nothing wrong with Barbie Collies. They are nice dogs. I have met some that I thought were great dogs. I am sure your dogs are great dogs. I do not think they are very much like my dogs (except superficially in shape and coloring) and they are not my cup of tea, but there are a lot of great breeds out there that aren't my cup of tea, so this is not an insult either.

 

I appreciate Barbie Collies for what they are, but I also recognize them for what they are, and they are not Border Collies. I don't think they are bad, just different. Different people like different things. If Barbie Collies were the only kind of "Border Collie" left available to me, I would have a different breed. That's a fact too.