So sad,,,,

[MrSnappy]

Wow.

 

What a mutant.

 

[LilyBeans]

OMG that thing at the top is built like a Saint Bernard!

[Miztiki]

Originally posted by Denise Wall:

THAT is a Border Collie. Wow.

[sandra s.]

Originally posted by MaggieDog:

Ick! Is it me or does that topline look like its slanting? Please don't tell me the Barbie Collies are going to end up looking like those gimpy American showline german shepherds!

That's exactly what I thought when I saw it.

 

As for the Borderfame page, they do have a "little farmyard"

[mjk05]

Herding? Not a single dog in their line appears to even have an AKC herding title or even an Instinct Test!!!

There are actually a number of exported Borderfame dogs that have AKC herding titles, they just don't have any listed on their website.

 

And you can't really expect lots of their dogs to have AKC titles, since they are an Australian kennel. In the state they are based in (where I also live), ANKC (the Australian KC) herding has only just started, and I think there were 3 or 4 test/trial days last year. So very few dogs here have titles of any sort.

[Sue R]

I don't think "Contestant #1" is a Border Collie at all - it's a Golden Retriever in the "Formalwear" competition, decked out in its little tuxedo. I wonder what it could do for a "Talent" competition?

[Bill Fosher]

As far as I know, Westminster is not an AKC show. I think they judge based on the AKC standards, but for some reason (invitational entries? Sound familiar?) it's not licensed.

[Howdyjabo]

Denise-- looks like you are getting closer to that coffee table book all the time..

[sea4th]

As far as I know, Westminster is not an AKC show. I think they judge based on the AKC standards, but for some reason (invitational entries? Sound familiar?) it's not licensed.

 

--------------------

Bill Fosher

Actually, Westminster is an AKC sanctioned club, sort of the creme de la creme of the conformation world.

 

Their show used to be like other shows where dogs competed for championship points, but that changed a few years ago when they limited their entries to finished champions to XX number of entrants. Since they began to accept entries via the net, their show fills up within a couple of hours. (My vet has some of the top pugs in the country and has been shut out of the competition within minutes of the entries opening).

 

So while Westminster isn't a point show, it functions under all AKC guidelines. It's not really a separate entity.

 

And if I'm wrong, someone correct me.

[Dave Apker]

None of the BCs entered had a AKC herding title at either the tested or trial levels. The highest title earned by any of the herding dogs entered at Westminster was a Herding Started A course on sheep or HSAs. 2 Belgian sheperds earned these titles. No herding dog entered had a AKC herding championship. Only 15 dogs had an AKC herding title and of the 15 11 were at the tested level. Of the herding dogs who made it to group ie on TV last night only one had a herding title a Herding Instinct Certificate or HIC. What a disgrace! The poor German Sheperd on TV could barely do up and back. The breed clubs and the AKC are doing very little to ensure that herding remains part of the herding breeds. Might as well move all the herding dogs to the non sporting group.Disgusting.

[kelpiegirl]

One thing. In this discussion about how bad the BC looks (in terms of ability to work, and I agree- not what I think of when I think BC), it comes up that this BC does not LOOK like a working BC, and that is true, but isn't it sort of the tail wagging the dog?

In a working BC world, looks DON'T matter, heavy coated, short coated, up/down ears, tall, short etc.

The point is, there really IS NO description (in general) for how a working BC should "look". So, when we discuss that this BC doesn't "look" like a real (working) BC, we are sort of buying into the idea that looks matter. Yes, there sure is a looks stereotype for conformation Border Collies, but let's not pigeon hole all the working BC's into any "type" of look.

 

Julie

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

Check out the results page of the Westminster Kennel Club show:

 

http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2006/...breed/bob2.html

 

Scroll down to Border Collie where they have the details of the Best of Breed dog listed. But click the Border Collie link in his info and look at the photo they display. I wonder why they do not have a photo of the "Best of Breed"

dog as their example of the breed!

[Falcon]

When I was a little kid the only exposure I had to Border Collies was through the AKC. My first dog love was the Barbie Collies, and I knew nothing about the controversy of the working vs. conformation worlds.

Then when I was a little older (junior high or so) we had a family reunion. One of my relatives (Roy Johnson) brought one of his BCs. I thought it was the oddest thing that the dog looked so different from the ones I'd seen in conformation shows.

 

I started doing research about herding BCs, and finally actually read the arguments for breeding for working ability (versus breeding for looks). Now, I look back at the Barbies and cannot see how I ever thought they were pretty (in comparison with the sheer beauty of a working dog).

Anyway, this was just a little story to let you all know that y'all do make a difference. I was a die-hard AKC fan, but logic rules over former bonds, and the logic presented by herders won out. These working dogs are simply beautiful.

[sea4th]

I wonder why they do not have a photo of the "Best of Breed"

dog as their example of the breed!

What's the point. BOB BC 2006, looks like BOB BC 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002 and so on and so on. If they stuck the picture of 1999's BOB BC, who the H--L would know the difference?

[Northof49]

If you want to see something else that's ugly, take a look at the Belgian Malinois that won. It looks like it's crossed with a daschund to get such a long back - YUCK!!! I can't believe the Malinois they breed and put up in the States.

[muggs]

Read Belyaev's hypothesis and study with foxes on effect of breeding for one trait - scary how it affects everything else, and shows how quickly everything about the animal will change.

[kelpiegirl]

I watched the video of the BC's judging- talk about spooky- they all looked like clones of eachother! It really was disconcerting. Then I looked that the Aus Shep video, and at least they had discernable differences, over and above color.

Julie

[Pat W.]

I am pretty sure that this dog is "Merlin" if I am correct he has been doing Westminster for several years now, along with the Eukanuba shows. In fact I think its the only barbie I have seen in any of the breed shows televised in the last 4 or 5 years, so would assume that dog is around 7 or 8 yrs old.

 

I almost cried when I saw the GSD the poor thing could barely move, and when they started talking about GSD's herding, I looked at that dog and wondered what reality they were living in?

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

Originally posted by sea4th:

What's the point. BOB BC 2006, looks like BOB BC 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002 and so on and so on. If they stuck the picture of 1999's BOB BC, who the H--L would know the difference? [/QB]

 

I think you missed the point of my sarcasm. I was amused that as their example of a BC, they showed a dog doing something that looks like working (could be chasing a ball for all I know), and that dog does not remotely appear to be built like their so-called "Best."

 

For their example of the breed, I'd expect them to use a pic of some show champion that fits what they consider the "ideal" (as compared to the show standard). But the dog in their pic does not look like an over-coated, clunky, fat, perfectly marked black and white cookie-cutter ring dog.

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by Sue R:

...it's a Golden Retriever in the "Formalwear" competition, decked out in its little tuxedo.

Sue, great line!

[Eileen Stein]

mjk05:

 

>

 

Well, they have an "Achievements" page on their website where they list brags from around the world, including "Obedience Champions" and "Agility Champions," but nothing to do with herding. And they have a "Roll of Honor" page where they show conformation dogs of theirs from around the world, together with their titles, right down to the lowest obedience and agility titles, but no herding titles. And they have an "Obedience/Agility" page, ditto, but no Herding page. Curious.

 

But the real point is, how do you breed "to produce . . . Border Collies that . . . excel in Herding" without knowing anything about whether the dogs you're using to breed with can herd? It would be like trying to produce conformation champions without being able to see what the dogs you're breeding with look like.

 

It's laughable to me that Borderfame would make this claim, and sad that anyone would believe it. But once conformation showing of Border Collies has been around long enough, that's what people think a Border Collie is -- conformation defines the breed, and "herding" is a vestigial notion that some people like to believe is still there somewhere, whatever it is.

 

Kelliwic:

 

dog as their example of the breed! >>

 

Because the parent club gets to choose the example picture, and the parent club -- at least back when the picture was chosen -- thought they could stand up to the conformation culture and that THEY could define what a Border Collie looks like. After all, that's supposedly the parent club's role in the AKC. But you can't stand up against the conformation culture within the AKC -- you get steamrollered. It's the BoB at Westminster that defines what a breed looks like.

 

Bill:

 

The Westminster Kennel Club is an AKC club, they only permit AKC champion dogs to enter the show, they pre-admit the top five AKC-ranked dogs in each breed, they judge using the AKC rules and the AKC breed standards, and their judges must be AKC licensed. You're right that technically the show is not an AKC-sanctioned show, because it's limited entry.

 

kelpiegirl: Good point.

 

Rebecca: Welcome to the Boards, glad to have you with us.

 

Nice to see these great working photos, especially during depressing Westminster week.

[kelpiegirl]

Hey, I have an idea! Why not have a "conformation" show, where the ring is a big arena with a BC, and some sheep. Now, the dog can be clean, and well groomed, but must do a routine, and look good doing in hee hee hee. So, when you send him for the sheep, his coat should be flowing, or his short coat should be shining. When he brings the sheep in, the WHOLE picture should be one of order. When shedding, he must appear brilliant and wise, and his whole body should give the appearance of a well tuned athlete. And, at the end, he comes back to the handler, and he has retained his good looks

Add to that, a get class, where his pups have to do the same If you want extra points, she sheep all have to look really good too, and no pooping in the ring please....

Tongue firmly in cheek.

Julie

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

And, at the end, he comes back to the handler, and he has retained his good looks [smile]

Hmmm, I love most to see a dog all crusty with mud and manure, with that satisfied gleam in the eye when they know they've finished a job and have done it well.

 

As to looking at a dog and being able to tell whether it can work at the same level as Norma's Jill or certainly Christine's Tweed, who's not short on the kind of looks THEY want - I think people who have seen lots and lots of these dogs work at high levels can spot a dog that is going to have trouble getting to the head of a bolting calf, or flying from one side of a flock of sheep to the other to cover a suddenly shifting draw.

 

However, it is absolutely true that the proof is in the eating and we are STILL eagerly awaiting the appearance of one of these "stuffed doll" type dogs on the Open trial field. Oddly enough, we have seen a sheltie step out there before we've seen a conformation champion of our own breed.

[kelpiegirl]

Mud, manure? OH LORD, I hope not ;( Do you KNOW how LONG it takes to get it out of the coat??? All the bathing and drying and all the broken ends, the HORRORS!!!! You must train your dog to move away from projectile poop, and puddles! I am sorry ma'am, you just ain't cut out for the show dog world

Julie

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I am sorry ma'am, you just ain't cut out for the show dog world [Wink]

 

You jest made my day, Julie!