So sad,,,,

[Jodi]

I found it. I figured out what that dog is in the first photo! Here it is.

 

ACHC?? Just when I thought I'd seen it all....

Jodi

[Valhalla]

ACHC? This has got to be a joke! I noticed one breed they missed was a Bulldog x Shih Tzu cross.... a Bullsh_t

[MaggieDog]

Just did some snooping and the ACHC is connected to the "American Pet Registry" an up and coming puppy mill registry...why am I not surprised?

[Jodi]

Hmmm .... Lends new meaning to the term "cookie cutter" eh?

 

 

Jodi

[mjk05]

Well, they have an "Achievements" page on their website where they list brags from around the world, including "Obedience Champions" and "Agility Champions," but nothing to do with herding. And they have a "Roll of Honor" page where they show conformation dogs of theirs from around the world, together with their titles, right down to the lowest obedience and agility titles, but no herding titles. And they have an "Obedience/Agility" page, ditto, but no Herding page. Curious.

 

But the real point is, how do you breed "to produce . . . Border Collies that . . . excel in Herding" without knowing anything about whether the dogs you're using to breed with can herd? It would be like trying to produce conformation champions without being able to see what the dogs you're breeding with look like.

 

It's laughable to me that Borderfame would make this claim, and sad that anyone would believe it. But once conformation showing of Border Collies has been around long enough, that's what people think a Border Collie is -- conformation defines the breed, and "herding" is a vestigial notion that some people like to believe is still there somewhere, whatever it is.

Oh, I agree with you 100%.

 

Its just that I'm on some Australian lists with the Borderfame breeder, and I know a fair few local Borderfame dogs, and its often stated that some of the American exports do have AKC herding titles and tests. Granted, Helena doesn't seem to put a high priority on advertising her dogs' "herding" achievements. Its a new website, and she doesn't have all of the dogs with Obedience/Agility titles listed yet either. Its all a lower priority than conformation.

Its just there's not much point disparaging her dogs or breeding based on inaccurate information. Some of her dogs have AKC herding letters after their names (I can get you a list, if you'd like- ETA- Ch Borderfame Choc Chill and Ch Borderfame Magic journey are both listed on the website, with HIC + some other letters- and from a quick Google, I believe "Choc Chill" has some offspring with HSA-type titles!)

 

But to be honest, I don't know what that proves- I don't think boasting about AKC herding tests as proof of "herding ability" shows much more knowledge of working ability than someone who just sticks with conformation (or conformation and agility). Its all pretty sad to me- and that goes for kelpies, too

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Too right. As you probably know, that "HIC" stands for Herding Instinct Certificate. Talk about something that's not worth the paper it's printed on. I would actually rather the conformation folks DIDN'T try to embellish their dogs with "herding letters," but then I'd rather they didn't make any herding claims, either.

 

>

 

Hmm. Maybe it's different in Australia, but in the US I always envy the Kelpie folks for how they've managed to keep their breed pretty much free from conformation breeding.

[Eileen Stein]

Pat, Merlin is six years old, almost seven. And I sure agree with you that it was painful to watch that GSD.

[mjk05]

Hmm. Maybe it's different in Australia, but in the US I always envy the Kelpie folks for how they've managed to keep their breed pretty much free from conformation breeding.

Unfortunately we're in a somewhat similar position as the BC, with an ANKC/FCI show version (which generally looks very different to the original working model) and the working variety.

 

We are slightly more fortunate, in that our show body, the ANKC, doesn't accept Working Kelpie Council (working breed register) registered dogs, so there is no continued drift of working lines into the show lines.

 

I don't know if the situation overseas is better or worse- there were a number of show-line kelpies exported in the past to the US and other countries. In the US, they're no longer eligible for the AKC, so show kelpies aren't being bred in any numbers for the show ring. But in some European countries, WKC pedigrees are accepted by their show bodies, and people are breeding ANKC/FCI show kelpies with WKC working kelpies for "all round" or sports/conformation dogs. Breeding kelpies for sports may also be a looming issue for kelpies in the US and UK, sadly.

 

Kelpiegal may be interested in this, if she's around. We've had a few discussions about whether kelpies should be bred only for work, or if show kelpies fill a niche for pet and sports homes. I feel the same way about the show kelpie-working kelpie situation as I do about show BCs-working BCs (ie these dogs should be bred only for work- if some of them go to pet or sporting etc homes, fair enough- but there's no place for breeding non-working kelpies or BCs).

I won't rehash the whole situation and arguments here (hey, its basically the same as the BC story) but if anyone's perticularly interested, its all covered here:Kelpie Bulletin Board discussion

 

and here's a show kelpie kennel:

show kelpies

 

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack this thread (or board ). Back in my box

[Katelynn & Gang]

It seems like more and more these conformation breeders are saying their dogs are from working lines.

 

But if you take a look at the pedigrees on the dogs, they are just dogs that are from CH dogs that didn't get CH on their name as well.

 

What a nice little outlet.

 

Katelynn

[Dave Apker]

And VP Cheney should have blamed the AKC for his hunting accident. He could have claimed he couldn't find a good hunting dog because of conformation and had to use a lawyer to retrieve dead quail and flush game!

[Sue R]

Well, it was better the way it happened, Dave. At least this way he shot a lawyer instead of a dog!

[Dixie_Girl]

IMO the working pics showed the true beauty of the Border Collie. Did anyone LOOK at the pics on the borderframe site? One is of father and daughter, the other two not sure of any relationship but still,,,,,THEY ALL LOOK ALIKE! I mean in a regular bred for work litter, what are the odds of such identical markings? Jackson and his litter mates were ALL completely different in their markings, looks etc. Well, most were b/w but two were tri but not like the bitch was marked. NONE were marked like the sire. That is like spooky! I mean I am sure you could measure the white and black markings and see a difference, but jeese, if you showed me one dog, then I saw another one of them later I would swear (and I never swear ) I would think it was the same dog.

[FlinkJLM]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by MaggieDog:

Ick! Is it me or does that topline look like its slanting? Please don't tell me the Barbie Collies are going to end up looking like those gimpy American showline german shepherds!

---------------------------------------------

I just recently got my first Border Collie puppy, she is now 4 months old, I took her out on sheep just to get her introduced and the instant she went out she was herding, she knew she had a job to do with them! I couldn't have gotten a better feeling in the world knowing that my dog wasnt a ditsy "Barbie Collie." It's like Hollywood of the dog world. You've got these "gorgeous border collies" and then you have the border collies that practically work for their next meals. Looking at the westminster videos, it looks like somebody hit re-run! And wow the identicalness of an Australian Shepherd!!How anyone could want one of these dogs amazes me. Yeah sure not many people need working dogs nowadays, but why take an entire breed and ruin it because people don't need the working version. It's like my dad's Gordon Setter. His Gordon has shorter hair and she's only about 18-19 inches tall, bred strictly for field work, which is what Gordon's were bred for. No doubt my dad's dog is one of the most beautiful Gordon Setter's I have ever seen. My puppy BC is the most beautiful dog that I have ever owned, she is very very smart and very very eager to please! I couldn't have asked for a better puppy. She'll sleep and sleep and sleep until I tell her it's time to do something. She's wonderful in the house, but the instant we go outside or it's time for training, it's all business! None of this Prissy eeewww i don't wanna get my feet all dirty gunk, mud...what mud?

[bc friend]

I must confess that the mom of my Katie, a bc/springer mix rescue, is probably a Barbie Collie. All I know is mom was a bc and dad a springer. While Katie has a lovely temperament, is bright, active and wonderful with children, she has no herding instinct, doesn't care for frisbee, ball, etc. She is a terrific family dog but not much of a bc. She is, however, much "prettier" (pretty markings, lots of hair) than Sara - my old bc - who looks pretty good cleaned up but was in her element herding, chasing frisbees, doing agility, and getting dirty! Sara's old but still wants to do all the things she used to do and still gets dirty trying! I love them both - and Katie has a home for life - but I consider only Sara to be a true bc.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

While Katie has a lovely temperament, is bright, active and wonderful with children, she has no herding instinct, doesn't care for frisbee, ball, etc.

In random bred Border collies many times the first thing to go is work ethic. The good thing is that these random crossbreeds make great family pets as you say. The bad thing is the implication that this has for the fragileness of working ability from one generation to the next.

[border_collie_crazy]

I have never liked the looks of merlin, but I must say, after seeing this show champian..I think I like Merlin better lol

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nicholas.bate...arsh4005003.jpg

 

[NOTE: THE PHOTO CURRENTLY AT THIS LINK IS A DIFFERENT PHOTO FROM THE ONE THERE AT THE TIME THIS POST WAS WRITTEN.]

 

[ 06-14-2006, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: Eileen Stein ]

[AlbionLass]

Is that a US dog? I certainly don't usually see show BC's looking anything like that in the UK.

[border_collie_crazy]

nope, its a UK dog, but all 5 champians in her pedigree are NZ, and the rest are UK dogs.

[AlbionLass]

[muddy bob]

That dog is lovely to look at - not that looks matter. But I'd much rather see her than our AKC show dogs. Thank you for sharing.

 

Muddy

[bc friend]

Originally posted by AlbionLass:

A much more pleasing dog imo.

Definitely!!!

[muddy bob]

I must admit my COMPLETE ignorance about the show world. Are the differences in type due to the lack of aussie/NZ lines? What do these show standards say? What are the differences?

 

Muddy

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Most of the big winning English kennels are more similiar to the fat dog above. I hadn't looked at any of those dogs in about eight years and I have to say I was simply repulsed the other day when I had occasion to look up some of these web sites. I have the Barbara Swann book and her dogs are attractive, I think, but still look functional.

 

This is sort of typical (not of the whole kennel club, but the "big names"):

 

http://www.mobella.me.uk/shchmobellawinterglory.htm

http://www.locheilbordercollies.com/Lochei...evil-at-Lethans

 

It looks like they are going for a look that is somewhere between a sheltie and a Pomeranian.

[border_collie_crazy]

the dog is the second link you posted is related to the one I posted above lol

[locheilUK]

Hi

this is a one off reply, as I'm not getting involved in a discussion with a load of 'saddos' who have nothing more in their lives than a passion for running down others.

As the breeder and owner of one of dog described above as a sheltie x pom I have never in my life heard anything so ridiculous. Tyler 'Chic of the Devil' is a moderate type, active, lively, typical border collie who is doing really well in his sheep training showing loads of natural ability, he is also a successful showdog. I am the breeder, handler and trainer of the only BC in the UK to become a full Champion having passed the ISDS working test so I do know what I'm on about and i've competed at Open Sheepdog trials here in Scotland. not stupid crappy trials like you have in the States, i've spoken to lots of people, friends, who've run clinics and judged trials over in the U.S. and they've said they've never seen such a load of rubbish dogs and handlers in a lot of cases. sheep 'worrying' and harassing' in lots of cases.

I could go to any Open sheepdog trial here in Scotland and find dogs, that could easily compete at our Champ shows, dogs like Tyler. i'd also find 'bare skinned' as we call them short haired Bc's but good looking well constructed dogs, not like most of the horrendous looking so called Bc's that the Americans advocate is the 'correct type' we would NEVER see dogs like that at trials here. They were created in the U.S. and thank god they'll stay there.

So please, you sad people who most likely are not successful at anything in your pathetic lives, do NOT critiscise dogs or lines you know nothing about. Stick to talkin about your own awful critters.

I almost wish I'd never bothered replying as you lot are not worth the time it takes to reply, but as I said previously, this is a one off.

 

Now I'll go back to enjoying and training my border collies.

 

Heather Turner

Locheil Border Collies. Scotland,