Herding? Looks more like chasing...?

[kelpiegirl]

Yes, the running contacts are nice to see, but many times judges can't see if the dog hits, so the hand goes up. Agility should not be technical. A fast well run course should flow seemingly easily, and to get that, you need communication with your dog, and it does not have to be in the form of all those popular terms. I don't ascribe to agility from a mathematical or technical sense, when I walk a course, I think of where I should be, to handle what. Not what cross I need here or there.

Julie

[CindyH]

Julie,

Running contacts done correctly are easy to see, as the dog runs all the way down the piece of equipment with their head low. If the judge can't see whether the dog hit the contact, it's not what I think of as a true run-through contact. It's goes back to if a toenail gets in, technically the dog has hit the contact, but is it what you really want? It's all about choosing your criteria and sticking with it. Do I use run-through contacts? No. Have I accepted a technically correct contact that's not what I trained for just to get a Q? Unfortunately, yes. But I've trained myself not to accept that now. I walk the course very much like you, deciding where I need to be to keep my dog on course and the flow going, never thinking in mathimatical terms (I hate math). But the truth is that a fast well run course that does flow seemingly easily is technically correct whether the handler thinks about it in those terms or not. Just like the ice skater or dancer that makes it all look so easy, without being technically correct they'd look more like me:) When handlers are trying to shave a fraction of a second off here and there, they are looking for the most efficient path for the dog. That can be in terms of having the dog jump closer to the jump standard to keep the dog from turning wide or even deciding on which side of the obstacle they need to be on. And yes, it's all about communicating with your dog. That said, I have no ambition to compete in Nationals and when asked what goals I want to achieve, I've always replied "To work better as a team and have fun!"

[kelpiegirl]

I have seen more dogs called on running contacts for missing the contact, than those who were not called for them, and therefore, I think that they can be a wolf in sheep's clothing My dogs are trained to stay until I release them, and that way, we all know we got our contacts

As for handling, I have been in agility a good long time now, and yes, dogs who cut close to jump standards, and make tight corners, do shave time off. My dogs do this without training. But, with that also comes knocking of standards when the course is too tight to collect properly. I guess I am a bit of a rebel. I don't subscribe to all the magazines, go to seminars, classes, etc. I just show my dogs what agility is, train a little, but I am never all that serious. Agility is a game to be played, not job I guess we could go to the Scottsdale if I thought I wanted to, but when agility becomes about beating others, in lieu of having just a good run with your dog, it't not for me

Julie

[Sue R]

Julie - You made a great point that I would like to paraphrase.

 

When ______ (fill in the blank with your choice - trialling, stockwork, agility, obedience, dog sports, etc.) becomes about beating others, in lieu of having just a good run with your dog, it's not for me.

More people should have this approach to training/handling their dog. This concept can be applied to many, many situations in life, can't it?

[CindyH]

I agree with you Julie, it's about having fun with your dog!! And believe me, my Daphne has a blast. I compete against the course, not other teams. Heck, my happiest runs have been when we've trained really hard for something and we accomplish that, even if we don't Q!

 

I think we must be thinking of two different scenarios with the running contacts. What I have seen people around here train for, there would be no mistake that the dog was in the contact zone and in control of themselves. The exception would be the NADAC teeter that is very specific about what is allowed and the dog must ride the teeter all the way down with all four feet in contact with the equipment. I, myself do require a stop on all contacts, I know my dog too well, and realize that to her, running contacts will soon become non-existant contacts. My favorite top competitor to watch has blazingly fast dogs and there are off courses, but both her and her dogs come out of the ring with smiles and her dogs know they are the best dogs in the world no matter what has happened on course!! I tend to avoid the winning at all cost people, just not my style

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by kelpiegirl:

Agility should not be technical. A fast well run course should flow seemingly easily, and to get that, you need communication with your dog, and it does not have to be in the form of all those popular terms. I don't ascribe to agility from a mathematical or technical sense, when I walk a course, I think of where I should be, to handle what. Not what cross I need here or there.

Agility does not needto be technical, but for a lot of people it has become so, especially at the higher levels of competition. I'm not mathematical or techincal either, but I still think in terms of what I can do to best communicate to my dog so we can in fact (or at least in theory ) run the course in a way that it flows easily. For me that includes what cross or move might best show my dog the path I want him to take.

 

I haven't figured out how to train to the level of precision that some people do in a way that is fun and motivating my dog (or me). It's just a game for us too and some of my all time favorite runs have been NQ's. But I still always try to make my handling as clear as possible for my dog -- maybe because I've had so much I've needed to improve and correct. I love certain moves, not because they're flashy and certainly not because I'm impressing anyone but because they can result in a smooth, flowing and fun run if things go right.

[CindyH]

maybe because I've had so much I've needed to improve and correct.

This made me laugh out loud, it could be me saying it After being in agility for 5 years, we still compete at the Novice level (thank goodness NADAC lets us) although Daphne could be a National level competitor, I'm certainly still a Novice handler

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Does anyone know who the herding instructor is in the video. I live about 45 minutes away and do not recognize the voce or the facility and believe me, I have been to a lot of them

 

Diane

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by CindyH:

quote:

---

maybe because I've had so much I've needed to improve and correct.

This made me laugh out loud, it could be me saying it After being in agility for 5 years, we still compete at the Novice level (thank goodness NADAC lets us) although Daphne could be a National level competitor, I'm certainly still a Novice handler A while back I came across some videos from my first year in competition. I hesitantly watched them because I knew it would tear me up to see my first agility dog who I lost last year when he was only seven. At first I did cry a bit, but soon I was too overcome with horror at my handling to mourn my favorite dog. My handling -- ohmigosh, my handling! I ran hunched over and clapped my hands like a dementedly happy Quasimodo. And my voice...my voice... At one point, I actually wondered "Who is that?" when I was especially high pitched with my girl sheltie. By the end of the tape, I was moaning "Make it stop!"

 

So, at least I know I've come a long way, though I pretty much had nowhere to go but up

 

Liz, who thinks first dogs in any sport deserve a hall of fame for what they endure

[CindyH]

Liz,

Thanks for the visual, it's priceless

 

I've watched my first run that by some miracle I haven't erased. Aside from slipping and almost landing on my butt, I gave the term flailing arms a whole new meaning!!

[tessa_s212]

. but when agility becomes about beating others, in lieu of having just a good run with your dog, it't not for me

Julie [/QB]

Yes! Someone understands me! I meet all these people, and also am meeting quite a few juniors out there that are WAY too competitive. I train and compete with four dogs in agilty. As of right now, I only own one of those dogs. The other three are all rescue dogs that used to be abused. ...Heck, my only goal for last year was to get Dega finishing full courses. After four months of trialing(and her peeing on every run) we finally finished one! We also Q'd that day! I mean, I do set goals for myself and my dogs... And I do love to beat all those adults out there on the course with my rescue dogs(AND my own dog), but when it comes down to it I am happy just if my dogs do well.. I don't need any blue ribbons to make myself feel better.

 

I'm also one that is slightly annoyed by all those fancy handling things..heck, sometimes they actually don't help the dog that much at all. I just do what works for me and my dogs.

[Tassie]

And do you guys apologize to your dogs for crappy handling? I had to apologize to Kirra on Sunday - we had a really ugly run - all my fault (except maybe the popped weavers) - late calls, out of position etc.etc. I felt really bad - but I don't think she did - she was grinning as usual. Very much a novcie handler here - and chronologically challenged too - my T shirt says "Dog needs younger handler" - says it all.

 

Mind you, I have to apologize to her sometimes (make that often?) on sheep, when I've given her a flank that she can't possibly take, because she's reading something in the sheep that I'm not. There was one time I did that with my trainer watching, and she said Kirra gave me this disgusted look that said " Hey Mom, aren't you watching your sheep .....!"

[CindyH]

And do you guys apologize to your dogs for crappy handling?

All the time

[kelpiegirl]

I think of agility (probably other things too) as time spent getting to know your dog, coming together as a team, and gradually getting a feel for what you need to do as a team. If you have a dog that loves agility, even more than you do, then you have a good shot at slowly getting there (or fastly, depending on your situation). We haven't climbed the ranks fast, but we have gotten better every year. For the first time this year, people actually came up to me and told me that my dog has come a long way (it should be our TEAM has come a long way At a trial recently, we were doing a sequence of jumps at a counter clockwise circle, and as we got to one point, your dog had to come in closer (my dog's favorite thing is to go OUT). Well, I called her as she was landing on the jump before that trap, and she without skipping a beat, came in, and handled it beautifully. I yelled GOOD GIRL!!!! I was SO happy, it was a milestone for us, and we even had some applause because it was a toughie. At the end of each run, I am so happy, because it is a great feeling to run with your teammate on the rails, getting through and feeling exhilerated for doing it. Gotta love those natural endorphins!

And that is for BOTH of us

Julie

[tessa_s212]

kelpie, I know what you mean! I especially love the people are energetic and ready to cheer people on! Our(meaning my club's) very last trial of the years was wonderful. We had all of our "regulars" there and a few new people. Everybody was cheering the kids, and even the less experienced adults on. I'm also particularly glad that that trial we had a *wonderful* judge!

 

That trial was actually the second trial that Dega(basenji/rat terrier mix) ever finished a course! I had been trialing Dega for over 4 months, and during every run she'd either pee, or run off course and back into her crate. Alot of our "regulars" knew the trouble I had with her for so long, and I remember this lady that I had always been very fond of came up that Sunday and told me how much not only the dog has improved, but I had too. And not only with handling Dega, but with my other two rescues as well.

This lady doesn't have shelties, or border collies, no jack russels either. .. She just has her rescued mixed breeds,.. but that sure doesn't stop her from being an AWESOME handler.. You know? She didn't have those dogs from the time they were puppies, and didn't train them in agility from the time they were puppies to be mad about agility. SHe just does agility for the bonding of her and her dogs. She does it for fun.. So, coming from her, I was *very* honored!

[Katelynn & Gang]

Hob Nob is a AKC breeder.

 

 

Katelynn

[bobh]

As to agility 'my dog is in elite in Nadac, she is fast and can run most courses by her self or with min handling. Nadac is about speed not handling !!

Akc we are EXa +Ex B. i would say that AKC is tight with discriminatios dogs and handlers must work as a team and dogs need more training so you can que them ahead of time.

USDAA tome is the best useually not as tight as AKC but more challanging than NADAC.

I would agree that for a untrained team AKc is harder than Nadac >

bobh

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Hi guys,

 

 

So back to my original question...who is the herding intructor? I would love to know!!

 

Diane

[MrSnappy]

Standard rescue plug time:

 

Gael was adopted from Ravensgate and if I recall correctly, she was a bit of a mess when she came into rescue. I don't know this fellow, but he's done a lot with that little rescue dog. I say kudos.

 

And I don't know what all you agility people are fussing about. Obviously, it's so easy. Before you do a run you tell everyone around you as loudly as possible "Okay, me and my dog are going to go out there and suck. Enjoy the show." That way, if you suck, you already called it so no one can make fun.

 

If you (accidentally) do really good, you can just say breezily "Oh I changed my mind when we got out there and decided to do well instead." And no one can make fun of you for doing well. Bases covered, totally.

 

I've taken an agility break and am just heading back to class next week. My instructor said on the phone "The people in this particular class are very serious; I think it will be good for you." I'm not sure what that means, but I imagine it does not bode well for me.

 

RDM

[colleydogge]

jef adopted gael from me (ravensgate border collie rescue) a little more than 2 years ago. he is a REMARKABLE agility handler and has done amazing things with all his dogs.

 

gael originally was a stray pickup who i pulled from the idaho humane society on her last day. she was shy, scared and confused. jef adopted her a couple months later. i could not ask for a better home for one of "my" dogs and i am picky, ask anyone! jef's training is meticulous, accurate, and he does not take chances with safety. are his dogs fast? you BET they are. why is that bad?

 

he has won the NADAC nationals with gael, so has now decided to pursue the same goal in USDAA and AKC.

 

why this deserves critisism, i don't know. and why the need to criticize a first-time herdig handler (or dog) is also a mystery to me. (i looked way worse than that my first time out.)

 

to assume that jef is willing to "hurt" his dogs for a ribbon just proves that the original poster does not know anything about him. jef cares deeply about all his dogs, as anyone who knows him will attest to. the comments he received from fellow competitors, including the president of NADAC, after winning the national in his height class, were moving and profound. they spoke to the mutual respect and the relationship that jef and gael have, not just the "win".

 

so jef is exploring herding. i think that's great - and a better attitude than "this guy's won some ribbons so he must abuse his dog, and look at how bad he looks herding" might have been "wow, good for him. he's not stuck on just one aspect of how remarkable border collies are, he's allowing his dogs the opportunity to try out other sports, and is not afraid to show the world what it looks like to be a beginner".

 

he is obviously seeing the good in his dogs even in the very beginning stages, as opposed to being critical without having knowledge of what is being viewed.

 

there, that's my 2 cents as someone who knows jef(and his dogs)personally.

 

eileen on camano island

www.ravensgate.net

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by MrSnappy:

And I don't know what all you agility people are fussing about. Obviously, it's so easy. Before you do a run you tell everyone around you as loudly as possible "Okay, me and my dog are going to go out there and suck. Enjoy the show." That way, if you suck, you already called it so no one can make fun.

 

If you (accidentally) do really good, you can just say breezily "Oh I changed my mind when we got out there and decided to do well instead." And no one can make fun of you for doing well. Bases covered, totally.

Gosh, I hope you don't think I was fussing or making excuses. I love agility, which is why I keep trying so hard to improve my handling. I've never thought the sport was easy and from my first few shows have been doing positive imagery/thinking when I prepare for a run, not telling people I'm going to bomb. My first agility dog overcame crippling shyness to really shine in the sport despite all my mistakes.

 

But I really did suck when I started agility. My instructors, bless them, never let on that they thought my dog was hopeless or worthless and for that I will always love them. However, they themselves were fairly new and unsophisticated handlers so they taught me the best they knew. When I went to my first seminar a couple years into agility, I realized there was a game out there on a whole new level. I've been doing my best to catch up ever since, while handling gets more technical and advanced.

 

I no longer think my handling sucks, but I'm not the most gifted or talented. There was a Dirty Harry movie where Eastwood kept saying "A man has to know his limitations." I'm basically a realist. I have my aspirations, but know I'll never run with the Big Names. Still, my dogs and I have a lot of fun. I can't wait to start with my BC pup. But I will. Formal training won't begin until he's a year though there will be lots of foundation work until then. I'm using Susan Garrett's Shaping Success as my guide.

 

I've never met Jef so I can't comment one way or the other. I did see the ad in November Clean Run that his rescue earned her MACH. I thought the photo of her in his arms, looking up at him was very sweet and just might sum up their relationship.

 

Liz

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Shetlander:

Gosh, I hope you don't think I was fussing or making excuses.

Yeah, umm, it was tongue in cheek.

 

RDM

[DeltaBluez Tess]

There is another dog (Buck) from Eileen (ravensgate) who was adopted to a guy named Jeff (ironically).

 

Jeff and Buck are coming to my place for lessons. First time out, Buck's tail was waving all over the place. Now it is tucked down most of the time. Buck is half Aussie and Border Collie. Eileen did a great placement with these two and it's great to see the love that Jeff and Buck have for each other.

 

I was curious who the Jef that has Gael and Voucher goes to for lessons.

 

As for agility, one of my other students does agility with her dog. She comes out once a week with Tye for lessons and Tye just loves it. She also does obedience with him. At one yr of age, Tye has the best down that I have ever see for a dog that age. As you all know the down off stock is vastly different when the dog see stock for the first time and the *great down* goes out the window. Well, Tye dropped like a rock but ready to get up as soon as I told him. For a young dog, his base training is just amazing. As for a dog that does obedience one would expect that he would look at the handler for guidance but he is not staring at me but working the stock but one ear in my direction.

 

Both of these owners do other sport with their dog but have made the commitment to do lessons with them come rain or shine. The deep bond between them is great and the love just glows.

 

Diane

[tessa_s212]

Originally posted by colleydogge:

jef adopted gael from me (ravensgate border collie rescue) a little more than 2 years ago. he is a REMARKABLE agility handler and has done amazing things with all his dogs.

 

gael originally was a stray pickup who i pulled from the idaho humane society on her last day. she was shy, scared and confused. jef adopted her a couple months later. i could not ask for a better home for one of "my" dogs and i am picky, ask anyone! jef's training is meticulous, accurate, and he does not take chances with safety. are his dogs fast? you BET they are. why is that bad?

 

he has won the NADAC nationals with gael, so has now decided to pursue the same goal in USDAA and AKC.

 

why this deserves critisism, i don't know. and why the need to criticize a first-time herdig handler (or dog) is also a mystery to me. (i looked way worse than that my first time out.)

 

to assume that jef is willing to "hurt" his dogs for a ribbon just proves that the original poster does not know anything about him. jef cares deeply about all his dogs, as anyone who knows him will attest to. the comments he received from fellow competitors, including the president of NADAC, after winning the national in his height class, were moving and profound. they spoke to the mutual respect and the relationship that jef and gael have, not just the "win".

 

so jef is exploring herding. i think that's great - and a better attitude than "this guy's won some ribbons so he must abuse his dog, and look at how bad he looks herding" might have been "wow, good for him. he's not stuck on just one aspect of how remarkable border collies are, he's allowing his dogs the opportunity to try out other sports, and is not afraid to show the world what it looks like to be a beginner".

 

he is obviously seeing the good in his dogs even in the very beginning stages, as opposed to being critical without having knowledge of what is being viewed.

 

there, that's my 2 cents as someone who knows jef(and his dogs)personally.

 

eileen on camano island

www.ravensgate.net

I am sorry if what I had said offended you, but I can only speak from experience. I "met" this man on a forum, where he basically sat there and told us that speed is more important than safety. This person wanted to slow down his dog for it's own safety, but this man didn't show any kind of acknowledgment that he understood the need for the dog's safety. Again, I can only speak from my experience, and my experience with this man(which may or may not be false) was that he was not caring enough about his dog's safety. His many videos only made me assume more that my statement was correct.

[tessa_s212]

so jef is exploring herding. i think that's great - and a better attitude than "this guy's won some ribbons so he must abuse his dog, and look at how bad he looks herding" might have been "wow, good for him. he's not stuck on just one aspect of how remarkable border collies are, he's allowing his dogs the opportunity to try out other sports, and is not afraid to show the world what it looks like to be a beginner".

 

[/url][/QB]

If you would have clearly read through this you would know the reason I am asking is because I have NO experience with herding. I saw the videos, and didn't know if that was what herding was supposed to look like. To me, it looked more like chasing. Now that some of it has been explained to me, I understand.