mjk05 Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Hi- are there any websites giving a basic run-down on the various BC organisations and their roles? I'm finding these forums a fascinating read, but haven't quite got a grip on some of the groups/registries mentioned- obviously I've heard of the AKC and ISDS, but ABCA, USBCHA, BCSA still have me slightly confused, despite a quick google. Since this is also my first post, a quick intro: I've joined this forum to learn more about BCs in general, after years of avoiding them My background is in agility and obedience, with rescue dogs, and my mantra's always been "you DON'T need a BC" (or "real women run kelpies" ). But then I met my OH, and his dogs, and somehow this year, in addition to my kelpie and cattle dog, I have my "own" BC pup (11mo now), who is a terrible scruffy little demon, but believes he is 100% my boy, and I can't help but love him to bits And I'm starting to do some training with my OH's dogs, BCs included, and it doesn't hurt as much as I thought All "my dogs" are boys, but my OH has a young BC girl we're considering breeding in the next year or two. OH has bred dogs before, but with no background in breeding myself, I'm also trying to learn as much as possible about this area. Nice to meet you all, Samantha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Just to sum it up, the AKC is the American Kennel Club (the basis of which is conformation, and which is also involved with obedience, dog performance sports like agility, and which pays "lip service" to the original purpose for which the "herding group" breeds were developed through their "herding" activities). There are backyard breeders and others less responsible who register with AKC, and even less responsible breeders/millers who register with the numerous "alternative" registries that cater to that type of clientele (CKC or Continental Kennel Club, etc.). The ISDS is the International Sheep Dog Society, based in Great Britain. It is basically the "mother lode" registry for working Border Collies. The ABCA is the American Border Collie Association, the only really active and primary registry for working-bred Border Collies in the United States. That said, there are people who do breed for performance sports and there are less-responsible breeders who do use this registry as well, so ABCA papers are no guarantee of quality working breeding. However, ABCA does provide registration for top-quality working-bred Border Collies in the US. USBCHA or United States Border Collie Handlers Association is the group that sanctions the ISDS-style sheepdog/cattledog trials (Open and Nursery classes) in the United States. It also puts on the National Finals for both cattledogs and sheepdogs. USBCHA events are open to all working dogs of all breeds, registered or not. BCSA is the Border Collie Society of America, basically the breed club for the AKC. Its emphasis is conformation, and provides venues for performance sports and "herding". Note that I have used quotes when referring to "herding" events that AKC or BCSA provide - they are not at all in the same league with USBCHA trials, and are simply a way to "title" a dog so it has more "letters" after its registered name. There are others on this board who can give you better information than I have done but this should give you a start at understanding the registries/associations. ...my OH has a young BC girl we're considering breeding in the next year or two. OH has bred dogs before, but with no background in breeding myself, I'm also trying to learn as much as possible about this area.This quote may open quite a "can of worms". Check out the thread currently active under the Politics section concerning breeding Border Collies for conformation/sport vs working ability. There have also been other threads concerning the breeding of Border Collies. First off, your dog is much too young to be considered to be bred as she has not had the time or training to be able to be proven as breeding-worthy. In general, a dog should be four years old or more before its value as a contributor to the breed can really be assessed. To sum it up in a nutshell (I hope), the breeding of Border Collies should always be done for the betterment of the breed, not for personal whim or satisfaction. That said, breeding needs to be done based on working ability, not conformation, performance sports, coat, color, ear set, how much you love or enjoy your dog, etc. One hundred and fifty years (or more) of selection for working abilities (stock instinct, stamina, soundness, biddability, intelligence, temperament, thriftiness) produced the working Border Collie, a dog unique in the abilities needed to get an arduous job done in the strenuous environment of the hills of Scotland (and its neighbors in the British Isles). Every time Border Collies are bred for anything but working ability, it is a step along the path of watering-down the characteristics that make the breed unique. This board often receives posts like one that began with "I'm starting to breed and train Border Collies" from folks who are not experienced with the breed and who don't know how to "prove" a dog but are ready to start "cranking out" the pups. Border Collies are proven for breeding worthiness by excelling on the farm and on the trial field, in real working conditions and in the varied conditions the trial field offers. Unless a person can train and trial a dog successfully to Open (successfully being a consistent high-placing dog over numerous trials, such that the dog is well-qualified for the National Finals), and/or work that dog just as successfully and usefully in varied farm/ranch situations, the person should not be considering breeding that dog. A person who can't do this doesn't have the experience to evaluate a dog, and a dog that can't do that level of work is not proven breeding-worthy. If you want to breed good quality working-bred Border Collies, take plenty of time to learn about the breed and how to prove breeding-worthiness in your dogs, how to read pedigrees and understand dogs, so that you can choose to cross good lines and good dogs. Just check out Petfinder, and see the thousands of Border Collies and Border Collie crosses listed there, homeless, abandoned, and in shelters facing euthanasia. More Border Collies are being "produced" than there are good, suitable homes for them. I hope you don't think I am being harsh because I don't mean to be. This board receives many postings from (generally) well-meaning people who don't realize what they are proposing to do when they decide they'd like to "breed Border Collies". Please search and read the other pertinent posts on these boards, stay, read, listen, and learn. We'd love to have you! And, we do have "real women running Kelpies" who participate on this board! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Thanks for that, Sue, I understood the AKC, and the ISDS, obviously, and knew the ABCA was a major working dog registry- it was the USBCA/BCSA that I wasn't sure on, but you've clarified it nicely, thanks So the USBCHA ia a handler registry, runs trials but doesn't register dogs, and the BCSA is an AKC-breed club. Sorted! Re your other concerns: First off, your dog is much too young to be considered to be bred as she has not had the time or training to be able to be proven as breeding-worthy. In general, a dog should be four years old or more before its value as a contributor to the breed can really be assessed. Well, she's 3 now, so the next couple of years is probably a reasonable time frame. There seem to be some differing views on this, though- what age to first breed from a bitch. I've heard of some who believe that younger is easier for health reasons, and I'm pretty sure many breeders in my area breed litters from younger dogs, based on their initial work, and breeding. But certainly we'll be seeing how she goes work-wise next year, when she'll be trialling, and more importantly, how she goes with daily work. To sum it up in a nutshell (I hope), the breeding of Border Collies should always be done for the betterment of the breed, not for personal whim or satisfaction. That said, breeding needs to be done based on working ability, not conformation, performance sports, coat, color, ear set, how much you love or enjoy your dog, etc.Sorry, I didn't mean to convey that we'd be breeding for these sorts of reasons. I probably should have given a bit more information. We're in Australia, not the US, and my OH is a full-time farmer and has been all his life- runs a smallish farm, mainly sheep (5-8000 head), does some outside crutching/wool classing, and his older dogs are pretty important for daily work. In recent years, he's got involved in sheepdog trialling, and has some pups from some good trialling lines to work with. I'm still hanging round the sidelines trying to get up the guts to step out on the trial ground, but I'm enjoying the training and spectating . Currently we have 15 dogs between us, 8 BCs, 6 kelpies and a pet cattle dog... 2 trained work/trial dogs, 2 semi-trained young dogs, and the others are all pups ranging from 6-12 months, in various stages of training and usefulness for daily work. The BCs are all from good lines, registered with our working sheepdog registry. 3 of the kelpies are also registered + from good breeders, 2 are station-bred (from good lines) and one is from a shelter (and is sterilised- one of my lads ). Their primary purpose is work- I do a bit of agility with my cattle dog, and a couple of kelpies and BCs have started training in it for fun, but sports will have no place in any breeding decisions. Farm work, then trial work will be the only considerations (although we do health test). And we certainly wouldn't be breeding for colour etc- ours are not "pretty" dogs, even by working BC standards, although I think some are very handsome. I might go post some pics in the photo section... Any pups would be sold to working homes (mostly farmers- although the locals seem to prefer kelpies) and trialling homes, and the only sport/pet homes we'd consider would be personal friends (not a big market in this area, anyway). I'm guessing if we get around to breeding, it would be a litter every couple of years at most. Most of our lot are dogs (4 bitches- 2K/2BC, of which 3 are pups). I hope we'd be breeding to improve the breed- that's the intention anyway. My OH's main work/trials dog gets some compliments for his trial work, despite his handler (runs in our Open trials), + is an excellent daily work dog, with a great nature- biddable, honest, smart, and never sulky. He has a nice natural cast, steady and calm and will force if needed- and adapts between trials and work, yards and paddock. He's not a bad dog, and we're hoping (with advice from their breeders) that he'll produce even better pups with the right bitch (which we hope we have). And, we do have "real women running Kelpies" who participate on this board!Cool! I'd love to hear from them- I did a search when I first found the board, and the only working kelpie owner I could see was Meaghan Thacker, who hasn't posted for a while... I think I'll always be a kelpie woman first and foremost, but I do love our BCs Thanks for your advice! I'm looking forward to hearing about working BCs from around the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Whoops! Pardon me for having jumped the gun but, if you've read the ongoing thread under this section about conformation/sport breeding vs working breeding, you probably understand why I did! I am very grateful you did not take offense at my assumptions and comments! Sounds like you are in precisely the situation to be able to train, work, trial, and evaluate the working abilities of your dog(s). And, that you know a lot more about what you are doing than I do - I am just a novice, and you (and OH) sure sound very expert and experienced to me. I, too enjoy a bit of "other things" with my two young dogs - we do some fun obedience and agility when the opportunity presents itself (no competition, just fun). As for our working Kelpie woman, Blackacre (aka Andrea) from Canada is the person I know on this board. There is also another poster, kelpiegirl (Julie Williams) who appears to be interested in working Kelpies. We do have posters from around the world, and I am happy to make your acquaintance. I am sure you will have a lot to contribute. Welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Hello Samantha, Of course real women run Kelpies, but they mostly have border collies. I'll post a picture of Toby the Kelpie when I get a chance. I run Toby in USBCHA trials in the eastern part of the United States and Canada, where we're from. Welcome. Andrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Andrea and Samantha, Here's an earlier thread with a close up shot of Toby, courtesy of Christine: http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/cgi-bin...t=000932#000000 And another: http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/cgi-bin...t=000857#000000 Scroll down toward the bottom of this thread for more (some of the images at the beginning are missing, but Toby's pics are still there): http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/cgi-bin...t=000423#000016 Andrea, Now you have some time to get us some more recent photos of Toby, which I'm looking forward to! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Of course no offence taken, Sue! I totally appreciate what you are saying, and agree . My fault for not explaining things a bit better, in retrospect my original post did sound like a new BC owner wanting to breed a nice pet. And we certainly aren't experts, or anything close- I'm as absolutely, totally novice as they come. I'm a city girl, professional job, and have only been really involved in working sheepdogs for a couple of years. Heck, it's been hard enough learning to open gates and work drafting gates etc My own kelpie is not ready for trialling yet, and my partner's older dogs won't listen to me (I'm just the food/cuddle dispenser) so I'm hoping to get a couple of the kelpie pups running for me... and then there's my own BC boy, who won't work for anyone else (he chose me). I'm hoping I can do him justice. My OH has worked dogs all his life, but has only been involved in the "finer points" of sheepdogs in recent years, so we're both still learning (although he has a big headstart!). And the breeding thing is something we're still considering- I think we can learn a lot about training, breeding and BCs in general from this forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 I've heard heaps about Toby (and you, Andrea) - he's a good looking dog. What lines is he from? Samantha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Hey Samantha - just wanted to say Hi to a fellow Aussie. As you can see, I'm down south in Tassie - city dweller, but I've had the opportunity to train my fluff-butt Border Collie bitch with a friend who has a sheep farm (small by your standards - only about 1500 sheep!) Though not working bred, she's turning out to be a reasonably handy little farm dog - though I'll probably never get her to trials - can't get her to sheep often enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyjabo Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Welcome.... Small time huh.... you have more sheep than this whole state has What does OH stand for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 OH- other half, significant other, partner, whatever Which state is that? I think its small-ish for Australia- there seem to be a lot of multinational/corporate-owned mega-properties around, who make one family-run place look pretty small. Thanks for the welcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyjabo Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Duhh-- don't know how I missed that one North Carolina I don't know the actual numbers of sheep in the state- but I still think you have more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelliePup Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 OH? Ohio BTW, welcome to the boards from Kellie and me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 Hi Samantha, We're famous or, ummm, notorious, are we? The internet really does make it a small world, doesn't it? I don't know much about Kelpie lines, but here are some pictures of Toby's sire CLK Crow with some pedigree information: Crow His dam is Chuckanut Briar Rose. Here's a link to the pedigree of a littermate of hers: Click on 'see my dogs'. Mahogany Rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodi Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 Andrea - Hey! I know Crow! He's an awesome dog! And Kelly does a great job with him. Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 Ahhh yes, do love those working kelpies! I don't have the herding type at this time. I see Kelpies more and more at agility trials, but have yet to see one run at a usbcha trial, that isn't to say I haven't heard about A.D and her boy! Wish I could have seen it! I have learned one thing about herding, and that is, one needs to get her dog's lots of time on sheep, and at this point, I don't have that access, so I get to just watch, and listend to all the fun stuff going on. By the by, both my non herding Kelpies were on sheep, and both did very well. As for Kelly, he is highly regarded in the working kelpie world, and I believe the go to person when it comes to just about anything Kelpie! Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 Ooops. No, I'm wrong. Mahogany Rose is Toby's granddam on his dam's side, and his dam's sire was Clovaville Wag, whose pedigree also appears on Jan's website. Kelly and I have corresponded a few times by email Jodi, and I get the impression that Toby is a lot like his sire in working style and temperament. In any case, all together now: Kelpies Rule! :cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodi Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 Yeah, I have to admit. Kelpies are really darned cool dogs. If I were ever to stray from the Border Collie, a Kelpie would definately be it. Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 We have a rescued Kelpie Blue Heeler X. Does she count? I also love Kelpies! Very cool dogs! Welcome to the boards Samantha! Its nice to have you. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted October 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 Hey Andrea- lots of really nice old names in that pedigree... Clovaville, Winona, old Liscannor, and right back to Scanlon's and Port Patrick dogs. Some really famous studs (I'm turning into a pedigree nerd )Toby sounds like a great dog- how did you come to get a kelpie, and was he very different to train from your BCs? And has he done any cattle work? Oh, and I've put some photos of our ugly mugs on the Gallery page... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tessa_s212 Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 A guy that used to train in our training club has a kelpie. She is a wonderful dog, but does have some dominance issues with other dogs. Samantha, I actually do not own a border collie, though I do handle one in agility. I was going to get a BC that I'd show in Jrs, obedience, and agility, but I decided that I truly didn't want one. It seems that the entire dog agility world is being consumed and over-run with border collies. Part of me didn't want to "follow the crowd", and I did not wanting others to assume that I wanted a BC just to win. I can win with my rescue dogs Mostly, my earlier decision to get a BC was from suggestions of others, and them pushing for me to get one(because I do very well with the BC I handle in agility). So, you are not alone! I hope you enjoy it here! -tessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 Hi Samantha, Well! As it happens, I did write a two page article for our local border collie club newsletter on the differences between Kelpies and border collies. I'll dig it up and post it here if you or anyone else is interested. Love the Fred dog. Is that a three sheep trial course in the background of the last pic? A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted October 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 That would be great, Andrea, if you have time! Thanks, we love Fred too- apart from being a nice natural sheepdog, who can turn his paw to anything, he has THE nicest nature. Undisputed lead dog, he never has a bad word to say, even to the most annoying pup, and while he loves a cuddle, one word from the boss and he's off to work. He's my OH's best mate, and I agree he's pretty special too. Gus and Bill are Fred's full brothers (much later litter)- my poor little Bill lost out in the looks department, and Little Sam is one of Fred's pups. We're hoping he turns out just like his Dad And yep, that's the bridge, I think, of a 3 sheep course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.