sport/conformation vs. herding ability

[Gary M]

Standing applause to Kate!

[tessa_s212]

Brildwn, although I can definitely understand Kate's position and feelings right now towards you, I am going to go about this a different way.

 

You say you like to show in conformation? But you also say that you are interested in the "working" aspect of the dog world? Look into a breed that would suit your lifestyle that doesn't have the gigantic breed split inbetween the conformation bred and the working bred such as the BC.

 

I, too, came here with the mind set the conformation is perfectly fine. And it *is* IF, AND ONLY IF, is it used properly. Conformation BC breeders ARE NOT using it properly, and this is how the humungous breed split happens.

 

That is when I started looking into different breeds. *Some* of the sporting breeds(NOT Goldens..)still remain whole. Or, if you like larger breeds, you can always look into breeds of the working group. Also, certain sight hounds might be good for you.

 

Please, reconsider why you want to breed and raise border collies. They truly are a wonderful breed, and sometimes you have to sit back and ask yourself, "Am I **TRULY** bettering the breed?"

[Journey]

What a wonderfully "mature young adult" response Kate.

 

But there is a law of genetics saying you cannot breed for looks over ability and still get a *real* border collie.

 

What "law" of genetics is this?

 

Soon the conformation lines will run out, they will all be related. I've already heard and seen this happening and have talked to a few very stupid conformation people (with finished Champion dogs with ROM lines in the BCSA) who have started to talk of how they are wanting to breed with working dogs to bring the ability back into their lines.

 

Run out? How? "Very Stupid Conformation People" as oppossed to "Very intelligent working people" do you mean that anyone who doesn't breed from "proven working lines" is less intelligent?

 

This was asked of you by Laurie ect a while ago and you said you choose to not answer it?

 

Do you work Dice on stock and/or trial her? What is she like on stock? What attributes/strengths of the sires you chose would compliment/improve her style? Maybe your family has had working stockdogs a long time, and I'm whistling up the wrong tree, but just wondering why there would be such a hurry to breed her and why you would breed Dice back so quickly instead of working/trialing HER.

 

It was pointed out that some people breed "riding on the coat tails of the pedigree" and that was very much frowned upon. Has Dice trialed? Or was she bred "riding on the coat tails"? Is she a proven "working" dog or a brood bitch?

 

Its stupid really. They breed the hell out of good looking dogs till they have made them useless and stupid! Then decide they do not want those lines anymore! So they came after ours!

 

Came after ours? One can only get what one is given. Solution - to each his/her own - don't sell to them.

 

 

Karen

[Howdyjabo]

"What "law" of genetics is this? "

 

I'll leave the scientific reasoning behind it to Denise and others more qualified.

But how about just useing some common sense

 

 

"Run out? How? "Very Stupid Conformation People" as oppossed to "Very intelligent working people" do you mean that anyone who doesn't breed from "proven working lines" is less intelligent?"

 

Very much so less intelligent about what it takes to breed a Border Collie.

 

"Came after ours? One can only get what one is given. Solution - to each his/her own - don't sell to them."

 

If we could only go back to that choice---

We were very stupid years ago not to see this coming and protect the breed better

 

Have you even bothered reading the whole topic???

We have explained our view point VERY WELL-- and backed our view point up thouroghly.

 

 

You cannot justify the unjustifiable-- No matter how hard you try.

 

Why don't ya'll do what you should and change the Breed name-- you created a new breed and breed standard- As long as you keep the name Border Collie you are wrong. No ifs ands or buts.......

[Katelynn & Gang]

Karen,

 

Your the BCSA conformation lover that wouldn't admit to it, correct? Wow, I wouldn't admit to such a thing either!

 

Originally posted by Journey:

What a wonderfully "mature young adult" response Kate.

 

I didn't mean for it to be a "mature young adult" response, Karen. I meant for it to be more towards the "truth" that your "kind" would consider towards the rude end of the scale! Which it must have been to drag you from your deep dark hole.

 

Originally posted by Journey:

What "law" of genetics is this?

 

The law of............

 

Lets see a six month old from my own breeding and a six month old from eight to twelve generations of conformation lines on livestock. Or a five year old Champion from conformation lines compared to one of my own pups at six months old on livestock.

 

And then you tell me (well never mind, you can only tell which one is the better worker by which one has the better fault covering coat and softer eyes, right? LMAO!)?

 

Originally posted by Journey:

Run out? How? "Very Stupid Conformation People" as oppossed to "Very intelligent working people" do you mean that anyone who doesn't breed from "proven working lines" is less intelligent?

 

Well first off "oppossed" is spelled "opposed."

 

Conformation people are just ignorant to their ways. Their proof a dog is good enough for breeding is how good its coat can over faults and how long it will stand still in a ring.

 

You can only breed dogs with no drive over and over again for so long. Your "kind" will have to seek out working lines or your AKC breed will lose its glory as the "everything" dog that can master all.

 

You only get what you breed for.

 

We breed for ability and that is what we get. Your "kind" breeds for looks and that is just what you get.

 

Originally posted by Journey:

This was asked of you by Laurie ect a while ago and you said you choose to not answer it?

 

Do you work Dice on stock and/or trial her? What is she like on stock? What attributes/strengths of the sires you chose would compliment/improve her style? Maybe your family has had working stockdogs a long time, and I'm whistling up the wrong tree, but just wondering why there would be such a hurry to breed her and why you would breed Dice back so quickly instead of working/trialing HER.

 

It was pointed out that some people breed "riding on the coat tails of the pedigree" and that was very much frowned upon. Has Dice trialed? Or was she bred "riding on the coat tails"? Is she a proven "working" dog or a brood bitch?

Dice has been proven on stock. She works. Her pedigree is good. She is health tested.

 

Laurie/Caroline knows this now and would have understood with my first post if either was more involved in the trial world. They are concerned with the working dogs welfare, this I thank them both for.

 

With you being so highly involved with BCSA I wouldn't expect you to have any depth of knowledge on this subject.

 

Originally posted by Journey:

Come after ours? One can only get what one is given. Solution - to each his/her own - don't sell to them.

Correct! That is the only solution!

 

I've only sold into experienced working/trialing homes. So this is not a problem with my dogs.

 

I'd never EVER sell to one of your "kind" or one stupid enough to fall for your "kind."

 

I am very proud of what my dogs and I stand for and I will not sit back and deny what is right for yours and other BCSA members' feelings.

 

Get use to it, I'm going to be involved in this breed for many years to come and I can tell you now that I do not plan on sitting back and watching conformation fools make Barbies out of my dog breed!

 

Katelynn

[Caroline]

I do understand your point Katelynn, most of the time. I do think it would be great if you pointed out some of the working style of Dice, like if outruns are her strong point, or she excels at driving or shedding. How about it?

Caroline

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by Kate, Dice, Cue, and Rev:

... Laurie/Caroline knows this now and would have understood with my first post if either was more involved in the trial world. They are concerned with the working dogs welfare, this I thank them both for.

 

Katelynn

Just to clarify my stance, since everyone wants to quote me...

I have exchanged a couple of private messages with Kate. From those, I do believe that her heart is in the right place - and she apparently has some well known mentors in the USBCHA world that have helped her to make some breeding decisions. I personally understand her desire to breed Dice before she got too old (even though I'm not convinced that Dice has demonstrated enough stock working ability to justify it, and I'm not comfortable with back-to-back breedings); but apparently Kate's mentors thought she did, and encouraged the breedings. You can't argue with experience. Everyone getting into working Border Collies should be so lucky as to find experienced handlers to mentor them and help them make decisions. Kate is an intelligent and zealous young person, and like most zealots she has tried to read, study and inform herself as best she can; and is adamant about "converting the world" to agree with her new views.

That said, I can't say that I agree with pointing fingers and picking apart everything anyone posts on this topic. This is not a witch hunt. People coming to this board will not read and understand if they feel thay have encountered a "cat fight".

The pure and simple truth has been stated many times already in this thread.

 

"To breed Border Collies for any reason other than superior herding and stock working ability (and the physical and mental attributes that go along with that) will dilute and eventually ruin the breed."

 

nuf said.

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

I will say that some people view registration as proof of ownership-like a title or deed. I know that I did before I started insisting on a Bill of Sale. Thanks to AKC, and many court cases regarding the ownership of dogs, a registration paper with the corresponding owner's name on it actually has wome weight to it as evidence. That said, I think issuing non breeding status on a registration for a dog is a fine idea.

 

When I bred my litters of conformation Shelties, I knew by 10 weeks of age which were worth keeping and growing out and which were not. Any that were not were sold on non breeding agreements. So yes I will say that I either sold my culls neutered or on contract for neutering. It's better than being personally responsible for more lives than I know about.

 

I have 2 ABCA registered BCs who do light stock work for me. I'm happy I got their registration papers because as I'm growing interest in working them more and more (read: owning livestock and interested in having good dogs to help me with them) and perhaps developing interest in sheepdog trials, I like to look at those pedigrees and learn something from them. I think y'all know that my girls are spayed and I'd never breed any BCs (or any dogs period for that matter anymore)and that my next dog will be one already started or a retired dog needing light work but I thought I should say so again lest newcomers get the wrong idea.

 

I'm not touching the ACK/Barbie breeding issue again- it's hard for me not to lose patience with the "willfully ignorant" to quote RDM.