AKC Ethics

[Eileen Stein]

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I'm glad to hear that, Doug. But how would you know which 1% of your dogs had the working ability?

 

You may recall my asking you the following question in the thread you started: "Doug, would you please tell us in detail what first-hand knowledge and experience you have of working border collies on livestock?" You didn't answer that question. Why not?

 

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I'm sorry -- did you feel that what you wrote was in some way responsive to what I wrote?

 

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In what way would you be impressed? Would you think to yourself, "Wow, that dog has a conformation title from New Zealand! He must have excellent working ability!"?

 

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Is this supposed to apply to me? I've never claimed to know it all, and you can have no way of knowing anything about my willingness to lend a hand. Unless you think that Karin has no way of finding training assistance in Somerset, England (the land of the working border collie, as she has reminded us) without turning to me in Maryland, USA for help, and I am cruelly withholding it? I think Karin can find a way to develop her knowledge and train her dogs to the limit of their capabilities if she really wants to, the same way the rest of us did.

 

Sometimes the sharing of expertise is lending a hand. But sometimes, as here, the helping hand is rejected.

 

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Not at all. I just don't understand why you and Karin think the onus should be on me to try to come up with some evidence to prove your point. Haven't you been listening to what people have been telling you on this thread about their experience with conformation-bred border collies?

 

Doug also wrote: "I bet I could get almost any dog titled in Obedience!" and there he said a mouthful.

 

I was pondering recently why so many conformation and sport people who know little or nothing about herding are so cavalier and dismissive about herding ability. I've always thought it's because it's no big deal to them whether the dogs have herding ability or not, because they don't need it or use it. How can you appreciate something you don't have any use for? It's sort of like the way I don't care what happens to professional hockey because I don't need it or value it (except, of course, that I don't pretend to know anything about professional hockey, whereas Barbie Collie people do so often pretend to know about herding ability).

 

But at least with sport people, I think there's another factor operating as well. Top obedience trainers pride themselves on being able to make a star out of any dog, because their training methods are so good (and of course because they themselves are so good). I've actually heard some of them say so -- "Give me any dog, and I can make it a top performer." This is a bit less true for agility, probably, because the athleticism required is greater, but it's not drastically different. While some breeds may be easier to take to the top, all breeds compete in these sports, and generally a good trainer can take his/her rescue pup to advanced titles.

 

I can't imagine even the best sheepdog trainer/handler saying "Give me any dog, and I can make it a top performer." There is much more to herding than there is to dog sports, it requires so much more innate ability bred into the dog. You cannot make a dog a good livestock working dog with training alone, no matter how good you are. The genetics have to be there. And the inbred talent is much, much more than just wanting to chase things or wanting to eye things. This fundamental truth is what we know, through experience, that those without experience just aren't willing to hear. And this is why we consider it so important to breed for the preservation of working ability.

 

One final, related thought. The reason I wrote the above question which Doug has declined to answer is that I'm struck by how often people who have never worked livestock with a dog come up with theories about what herding ability is, how it can be measured, and how little is necessary to preserve it, and consider their theories more valid and trustworthy than anything said by people who are experienced in working livestock with dogs.

 

I guess it's akin to the idea that when people who have never worked livestock with a dog write a description of how a dog should look in order to be able to work livestock, and when that description is applied--by other people who have never worked livestock with a dog--to judge dogs in the breed ring, then this is a far better way of judging whether a dog has the capability to work livestock than any judgment an actual working dog person could make. To me that notion is so absurd that it amazes me it's even expressed, but it is, and if you challenge it you're likely to be disparaged by those invested in believing it as a self-styled "know it all" expert with a closed mind.

[karrider]

I have just received an email from Eileen pointing out that this board is an open board with some 3800 members plus the people who access it to just read,therefore it could have been just about anybody who mailed me, I also got the impression that maybe I had other reasons for not posting,i.e. the weight of opinion against my point of view could be a deciding factor, If I have misread or misunderstood what you were saying Eileen you have my apologies, but there is absolutely no reason other than that originally given for not wishing to post.

I will happily play Devils advocate till the cows come home............

 

Okay, going back to the points I was going to answer before I was sidewinded.

 

The question (a)was why was I suprised a dog was till working at 7??

 

This was not due to any implied health reasons, simply I was pointing out that Kali is bred from 2 non working parents, and the fact that he is still going strong at 7 means that he is more than capable of doing his job or he would have been rejected from a working enviroment a long time ago

 

question( the colour issue, My first BC was a merle,I liked the pattern,still like it,and will probably continue to like it well into my dotage,

just as some people choose a pup because it has a white blaze, hasn't got a white blaze or reminds them of their old Bob or Moss.I choose dogs that I am happy to live with for the 12,13 or in Jaspers Case 15++ years even if the dear old boy looks like a cow with his white head!!

 

© my dogs pedigree, the pedigrees shown were actually for the same bitch, she worked agility, her offspring work agility and obedience, the pups sire is one of the few explosives search dogs in the UK.

my other dogs pedigree is all ISDS registered 2 gens back

incorporating Bosworth Coon Wiston Cap and sup int ch bill, going back even further to Mindrum lines. My original bitch was a combination of Sadghyl and Plas Major lines, I think these same lines are also behind dogs in the States??

 

(D)Re the herding issues, I was NOT expecting Eileen to hold my hand here, It was simply implied in another thread that some regular posters know herding folk the length and width of the UK and merely thought a name may have sprung to mind.Indeed I have already found somebody who is willing to help out, the main problem and I am NOT using this as an excuse is that I don't drive and as a geriatric nurse I work unsocial hours on a shift pattern, therefore daily or maybe even weekly sessions are just not a viable prospect.

 

I hope this has clarified a few points on where I am coming from

 

Regards Karin

 

P.S. Has anybody read the article on sheep liking smiling faces??? perhaps the BC is not as indispensible as thought LOL just get out there and smile broadly at your sheep, should work wonders!!

[Tuck's BCBuddy]

Apologies to both Julie and Eileen. I never have the intention of speaking for anyone, but sometimes I guess I do, without realizing it 'til after its been done. Not the first time I've spoken out of turn, eh.

 

Karin,

Even though we have opposing views on the topic at hand, welcome back to the discussion.

[Eileen Stein]

Hey, I was just about to apologize because I see that while I was writing my response, other folks including you said much the same thing only better.

[wildairbc]

"Imagine if one of us started acting like we knew all about what it took to breed and make a conformation champion, even though we had no experience in it or knowledge about it at all."

 

But you do this all of the time. You belittle it and assume that it is a piece of cake and only for the mentally challenged.

Perhaps this would be more of a "discussion" if the subliminal message in every post wasn't always "you are wrong, you are wrong, YOU ARE WRONG!"

Again, I see that it is quite right to post the website of a "show" breeder for all to abuse, but heaven forbid the site of a "working" breeder should come under scrutiny.

I believe that you should state PLAINLY in the preface to this forum that "conformation" advocates are NOT WELCOME.

I rarely post here and I came to learn. The most I have learned is the basic meaness of people when they are disagreed with. Especially when they outnumber the "disagreer". (I know that is not a word, so don't start)

The assumptions I see here about the AKC from people who know NOTHING are ridiculous and ignorant. Yes, all the time you try to tell us what we should and shouldn't do with no base of knowledge.

I think it would be wise not to assume that just because a person has AKC registered dogs, they have "no knowledge of working stock with a dog". Do you even KNOW who wrote the various BC standards? Ask Karin who wrote the UK standard.

I KNOW how futile it is to talk to folks on this forum, so I will not respond. Yes, I am being reactive. Must be the heat or PMS. Certainly can't be because I KNOW anything.

Bonnie

PS- Karin does NOT know me, nor I her, so don't let any mud you sling my way land on her!

[Eileen Stein]

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Not at all. I have friends who are conformation breeders of other breeds. I have no disrespect for them. It's not as difficult as breeding for working ability, but I don't think anyone has ever implied that it has any particular suitability for the mentally challenged.

 

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Nothing subliminal about it. It is wrong to breed border collies for the conformation ring. It's harmful to the breed. I fail to see how this would be more of a discussion if I said I thought it was okay to breed border collies for the conformation ring.

 

The sad thing is, I don't think you make any effort to understand why it's wrong. Because you don't want to. Because then you'd have to stop what you're doing, and you don't want to, because you enjoy it. So it's easier to say that others shouldn't tell you it's wrong, that they're mean if they do.

 

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I didn't post karrider's website for people to abuse her. I didn't expect anyone to abuse her, and I don't know whether anyone did or not. I posted it because I think it aids the discussion when those taking part are upfront about what they are doing. I think it's evident from karrider's site that she's a breeder who is, as she says there, "specialising in merles," (i.e., breeding for color), and I don't see why that's information that she would want to conceal here and reveal elsewhere.

 

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But you are welcome. If you weren't, you wouldn't be here. That doesn't mean that we will not say we disagree with you.

 

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I think it's sad that, with all the knowledge shared here, nearly always politely, anyone could say that all they've learned here is meanness.

 

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What is it you feel I need to know about the AKC, and don't already know, in order to decide whether conformation breeding and showing is bad for the border collie? Or in order to know whether working ability will diminish in a population where it's not being bred for?

 

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I know what there is to be known about who wrote the AKC standard. If you think a working dog person wrote any of the other standards, please tell us who that was. Otherwise I will assume it was someone who cared about color, coat, ear set, topline, etc., and didn't care about working ability, because I'm a simple soul who believes that people write about what they care about.

 

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Um . . . what's the difference between your post and a response?

[Bill Fosher]

I think this point bears repeating in response to Doug's claim that he could probably get an obedience title on just about any dog.

 

To the extent that he is claiming that top obedience trainers who make this sort of claim and top handlers in the sheepdog world are similar, he is all wet.

 

There are very few working dog "titles" conferred each year: International Supreme Champion, US National Champion, and four UK national champions. No others are recorded on pedigrees, as far as I know. So no one who valued his or her reputation would claim to be able to win one of these titles for which thousands of dogs vie every year with just any dog. The fact that many of the same handlers return year after year to the finals with different dogs doesn't mean that they could do it with any dog; it just means that they are adept at selecting the dogs that can go the distance and bringing out the best in them.

 

However, if you were to take the working titles that some of the conformation groups hand out, I bet there aren't many dogs that couldn't get one. The working standard is so low, and there are so many hundreds of them awarded each year that it probably says more about a dog if someone tries to get it titled and fails than if they do get it titled.

[PennyT]

I never assume that having AKC registered border collies means a person has

no knowledge about working stock with a dog, and I don't know anyone else

who does either. It is reasonable when evaluating breeders to draw inferences on their expertise from what they say about themselves.

 

For example, Wildair claims on her website: "Generally, Border Collies from trial lines will have a higher "prey drive", which can be problematic if you are not experienced in training and knowledgeable about canine behavior. That said, my daughter?s agility dog (adopted off a cattle ranch at 9 months) has the highest prey drive I have ever seen in a BC and she is a house pet who sleeps on my daughter?s bed. In MY experience, the imported "show" lines seem more ?people oriented?, while still retaining a herding instinct."

 

The lexicon Wildair uses indicates lack of experience. Saying a border collie has high prey drive is no particular compliment and would probably mean something on the order of (but not necessarily exactly) that the dog takes down sheep and/or doesn't know when to take the pressure off and let the cattle move. Wildair also regards a high prey drive dog as synonymous with one having a high level of "herding instinct" because in the next sentence she contrasts a high prey drive dog with one that "retains a herding instinct."

 

What she is saying about "prey drive" and trial lines is both untrue and couched in terms that people who are knowledgeable about working border collies on livestock do not use in the context.

[Tassie]

FWIW, I am a person with conformation/sports bred Border Collies. One of my dogs showed some keenness and a little aptitude on sheep, and as I am retired, and can afford the time and money (sort of), we are having lessons with a trainer who uses her American working Border Collies in her large fine wool merino operation, and who also trials some of her dogs. After a lot of time and effort, we have got to a stage where my little dog could one day become (as her stockman put it) ?quite a nice workmanlike little dog? and ?worth putting time into?. Since I have the time, and the enthusiasm, I can do that. But would I claim that my conformation bred dog will ever work like one of my trainer?s working bred dogs ? no. And using Julie?s economic sense point ? would it make sense for a farmer or a serious trialer to choose my dog over a working bred dog at a similar standard ? absolutely not.

[Denise Wall]

I wrote:

 

"Imagine if one of us started acting like we knew all about what it took to breed and make a conformation champion, even though we had no experience in it or knowledge about it at all."

 

To which Bonnie replied:

 

"But you do this all of the time. You belittle it and assume that it is a piece of cake and only for the mentally challenged."

 

I don't really think one way or the other about how hard it is because I don't think it's an important thing to do with a border collie. I do know that it's harder to select for behavioral traits than structural ones though. I assume however that there is a fair amount of difficulty and skill involved in breeding conformation dogs and that it's not something you can do with any dog just because you have the right "can do!" attitude. It is something that must be bred for, and strictly I would imagine. Knowing this, I don't understand why conformation people who also know this to be true about conformation dogs, don't recognize that true working ability needs to be bred for strictly as well. Why would we say it if it weren't true???

 

What I actually meant in my above quote was that none of us are claiming our dogs could be conformation champions despite the fact that we know little to nothing about what this actually takes. I don't think you, personally, claim your conformation dogs can "herd with the best of them." But certainly other non-working border collie breeders do. I was just trying to reverse the situation in theory in hopes that it might make more sense to conformation breeders that way.

[border_collie_crazy]

While some breeds may be easier to take to the top, all breeds compete in these sports, and generally a good trainer can take his/her rescue pup to advanced titles.

while for some sports I have to agree with this statement it is certainly not true in Flyball. oh you can get adbanced titles with any ol dog, but that would take years. and most dogs taken like that NEVER make it to advanced titles.

 

 

I would also just like to point out that in general Sport people do NOT support Barbie collies as many people seem to think. I am all for preserving the working abilty of BCs and rather venemetly against the breeding of Barbie collies. and I know I am not the only one lol

[BigD]

Take a conformation bred dog out into a field after 2 or so years of training and watch it work stock. Then bring a stock dog out there.

 

Apples and Oranges.

 

No, apples and potato chips.

 

They are 2 totally different things. Yeah, maybe they look the same, but the genetic ability in one has been bred for specifically. In the other, the genetics are only looks.

 

Any yes, maybe that Borderfame dog has some working lines back there...somewhere. (I'm only saying Borderfame because that's what won at this years Westminster, I think.) And maybe it can "chase" sheep well and might respond to some pressure.

 

But it's not what that working dog is. It won't be and it can't be because genetically, those genes aren't there. Not all of 'em and not the best of 'em.

 

It's that simple. I didn't believe it until I saw it and until I worked my "god knows from what" dog (rescue) on sheep and happened to see a working dog bred from stock dog lines.

 

THAT was a Border Collie.

 

All the other dogs were envious. And so were the humans.

 

Big D (Denise, but not the other Denise)

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>Diane, could you or someone please post a picture of ROM Tess, for example. <<

 

Of course, I have very few herding pictures of Tess as I am usually out in the field with her.

 

 

Tess at 12 weeks on ducks. Notice she is herding about 20 plus ducks as well as several Corgi puppies. She managed to put them all together and fetch them to me.

 

 

 

Another one of her at 2001 Nursery finals where she placed 6th. This was the crossdrive. I am not too sure where Denise saw her.......?

 

 

and of course her baby picture.

 

 

She has worked cattle, sheep, duck and chickens.

 

It's what she has inside that makes her a champion in my eyes. True heart and grit.

 

Diane and Tess.......

[Denise Wall]

Thanks Diane,

 

I saw Tess recently. Scott Glen was running her in Open at Seclusival a few weeks ago. She did quite well. I was also on the board when she was ROMed (even though I was not one of the board members required to see her work in person), so I've seen videos of her at other trials and in other working situations.

 

Penny, if you're still out there, any chance you have a picture you can post of ROM Emily, retired Open trial dog and dam of the 1999 USBCHA Reserve Nursery Champion, your current Open dog Taylor, littermate to your other successful Open dog Jordan?

 

I'm just trying to provide some examples of the dogs who have been ROMed here in the US.

 

Denise

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Here is a picture of Penny Tose's Emmy. I took it a couple of yrs ago when I was there over the Xmas holidays. I had such a great time with Penny.

 

Emmy is quite old but sure showed the young whipper-snappers how it should be done.

 

 

 

Diane and Tess

[karrider]

I didn't post karrider's website for people to abuse her. I didn't expect anyone to abuse her, and I don't know whether anyone did or not.

 

 

Thank you so for those few kind words, are you implying I am lying, I can assure you I am not! Ihave no reason to and there is no benefit to anybody to do so.

 

 

I posted it because I think it aids the discussion when those taking part are upfront about what they are doing. I think it's evident from karrider's site that she's a breeder who is, as she says there, "specialising in merles," (i.e., breeding for color), and I don't see why that's information that she would want to conceal here and reveal elsewhere.

 

 

It is not information I was wishing to conceal, nobody has ever actually asked me what my dogs are like, at the moment, I have a very mismarked 15 years old Boy, and three merles, merles are my favourite, it is the colour of the first BC I ever had and one I was extremely fond of, Tam lived till she was 17 years old and I still miss her. Incidentally in the past 25 years only 2 of the dogs bred by me have actually been in the show ring, one of my own dogs entered one local show and that was it.....and then recently (within the last year) another pup I bred who has gone to a home for Obedience and agility was also entered. That hardly qualifies me as a dedicated Conformation breeder does it.

 

 

But you are welcome. If you weren't, you wouldn't be here. That doesn't mean that we will not say we disagree with you.

 

 

I can take disagreements, not everybody in the entire world agrees with everybody else,I do not have a problem with that at all.

 

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Actually the breed standard here in the UK was written in cojunction with the ISDS,and several Border Collie breeders, I cannot call them conformation breeders because at that time they didn't exist.

 

Karin

[Bill Fosher]

That you would call a dog "mismarked" says it all, in my book. There's no such thing as a "mismarked" working Border collie, unless it is a dog who cocked his leg somewhere he shouldn't.

[PennyT]

Thanks for posting that, Diane. I was just wondering which was going to be more trouble: taking some photos in to be put on CD or figuring out how to get from digital camera to photo on Boards.

 

Emily is 15 now and will be 16 this winter; I guess she was 13 when that was taken.

 

On a different subject: if anyone sent nasty notes to me, I would plaster them with signatures and any identifying headers all over the list or bulletin board that sparked them. The reasons I would are twofold. First and most importantly, it would embarrass the senders. Second, it would remove any doubt about what might be considered nasty.

[karrider]

Originally posted by Bill Fosher:

[QB] That you would call a dog "mismarked" says it all, in my book. There's no such thing as a "mismarked" working Border collie, unless it is a dog who cocked his leg somewhere he shouldn't.

 

 

No I don't think it does, if you ask Joe Public of their perception of a Border Collie, they always say black white, white blaze white feet, Jasper does not fit the usual look of a BC he looks more like a Hereford Cow.

Karin

[SoloRiver]

If you ask Joe Public what he thinks a Border Collie is, he'll normally say, "One of those sheepdogs." In other words, the popular perception of this breed is that it still works livestock.

 

But, I think that lowest common denominator arguments are poor ones for breeding dogs. By your argument, red (sorry, "chocolate") dogs -- or for that matter, merles -- are also problematic because the average person on the street thinks all Border Collies are black and white. You wouldn't believe the breed guesses I get on my absolutely classic-looking red and white dog.

 

 

How can you call your dog "mismarked" without also calling your merles "miscolored?"

 

Why such emphasis on markings and not color? There's no logic behind it an no reason to label a dog "mismarked." Your Hereford has markings you don't like, but that doesn't make him mismarked. "Mismarked" is a term that has no meaning for Border Collies.

[Eileen Stein]

Surely you aren't saying that Joe Public would use the word "mismarked"?

 

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No, a dedicated conformation breeder would show more than that. But it makes you someone who is breeding for appearance. And you associated yourself with conformation breeders in your posts.

 

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Might they by any wild chance have become conformation breeders after the standard was written?

[Tuck's BCBuddy]

Hmmm, I certainly cannot speak for Joe Public in the UK, but I can say, from discussions I have had, that if you polled 100 average citizens (well, here in my area anyway), asking their perception of a border collie, you'd probably get answers like this:

 

Some Strange "What are you talking about" looks (of course, these would be a bit more rare than say, 10 years ago)

 

Some responses of, oooo, those sheep herding dogs

 

Some responses of, yes, those black and white dogs

 

Some would say, oh, I hear they are smart

 

You might hit on a few that have a bit more background and knowledge of the breed, and may touch on some of the other potential colors, etc. But I highly doubt the words "white blaze white feet" would come out of the mouth of anyone polled.

 

But, here is where I'm a bit perplexed Karin...

 

Earlier in this thread, when Eileen provided some pics of what would be some very out of the ordinary border collies, from a looks standpoint, you responded that in the UK, there are an abundance of border collies that look this way, and that even your children viewed the pics and immediately identified them as border collies. Why then would Joe Public there always say, black white, white blaze white feet?

[ccnnc]

Hey all,

 

Gotta say we've fallen into an old trap in this discussion, i.e. trying to debate the conformation crowd on the semantics of how a Border Collie should be measured.

 

There is only one measure -- the stock work the dog does. Any other is of no consequence, except, perhaps for secondary or tertiary considerations. Some may prefer short to long coat, color and size are of no real consideration in the work, but could influence some, etc.

 

The sport folk recognize this -- the element that makes the Border Collie excel in agility, flyball, tracking, whatever is the work ethic that is the essence of the Border Collie.

 

I have had the privilege of sitting at the feet of many of the master handlers, they have taught me a lot about the technique of stock work.

 

The dogs have shown me the art of stock work. We function in their world, every fiber of their being -- regardless of outward manifestation -- is directed to the technique and style of moving stock.

 

To see a dog naturally balance on and off the stock on the drive, maintaining line and pace over hundreds of yards is more beautiful than anything that might appear in the show ring.

 

To see a dog use a simple flick of the eye to make the shed a calm, effective event brings more joy than any show ribbon could.

 

To see a dog naturally alter style and pace when moving from sheep to cattle is absolutely amazing.

 

To see the joy on the dog's face after a job well done -- they DO know when it went well -- could never be matched by the dull expression of the show dog.

 

It is this natural skill and art that must be protected.

 

I'm glad Penny T -- hey, cuz -- is part of this thread. She will validate my coining the phrase "Barbie Collie" during the early dog wars. I will gladly release any remaining claim I might have for that phrase if the conformation folk will take that as the official name of their non-Border Collie canines.

[Tuck's BCBuddy]

Very nicely said ccnnc!!! :cool:

[karrider]

[but, here is where I'm a bit perplexed Karin...

 

Earlier in this thread, when Eileen provided some pics of what would be some very out of the ordinary border collies, from a looks standpoint, you responded that in the UK, there are an abundance of border collies that look this way, and that even your children viewed the pics and immediately identified them as border collies. Why then would Joe Public there always say, black white, white blaze white feet?

 

 

Here in the UK (and I am hazarding a guess) Joe Public had been used to seeing One Man and his dog on the TV, it ran for years and was one of the most intrumental programmes for the increase in Border Collies in pet homes throughout the UK, just like the sales of OES rose when Dulux ran the adverts,and the Labrador advertising toilet tissue, sales of British Blues went up with the Sheba adverts, once people have a visual in the minds eye then that is what the breed is regardless of how many colour varieties they may have.

 

Going back to One man and his dog a programme presented by the very lovely Eric Halsall, the majority of the dogs ran were black white, blaze of some discription and white collar, full or otherwise, I do remember a couple of Red?chocolates running and a couple of smooths but not a particularly high percentage.

 

 

My kids have been brought up with Border Collies since birth, they have seen more BC's of different type and colouring over the years to be able to recognise a BC when they see one.

 

Karin