Conformation Herding Champion

[juliepoudrier]

Karen,

Are the sires you refer to as open trial dogs in your earlier post the same three you list on your web page? Just trying to figure out who's who in your breeding program....

 

J.

[Karen Moureaux]

Julie,

 

No. Those dogs do agility. I am NOT a herding person so what would I be doing with an open trial dog? I have bred to dogs running in open and one of my bitches sire/dam run in or have run in open. I think her sire is retired now.

[Eileen Stein]

Karen, I don't understand why you feel you need to "set a couple of things straight."

 

You apparently take issue with the following statements:

 

>

 

In response you say that it was actually 29 puppies (29 is nearly 30, isn't it?). And from what you say in your post ("Most of the pups I sell go to agility homes. I am an agility person and have been doing agility with Border Collies since 1989."), what you say on your site ("Karen's understanding of what it takes to be competitive in dog sports has helped form her vision of the Border Collies she believes will excel in dog sports and fired her desire to produce great performance Border Collies."), and the very name of your kennel ("Contact Point" is an agility term, isn't it?), it's apparent that you are producing "performance border collies." So the statement you want to set straight was accurate, wasn't it?

 

>

 

Here again, the statement is true, isn't it? Out of the six sires and dams of those three litters, you say that only one has competed in USBCHA trials. You say that certain of their forebears have competed in USBCHA trials, but that just confirms that you're using primarily working bloodlines. And you wouldn't dispute that you're breeding for agility, would you? You ask, "How would you know what I'm doing?" but the answer is that you put up a very nice website to tell people what you're doing.

 

Perhaps the only real point of disagreement here is a semantic one? Maybe it's that you use the term "working" to apply to dog sports like agility, and we use the term "working" to apply to herding livestock. Is that all it is?

[Karen Moureaux]

Eileen,

 

I'll amend my post to say I breed athletic, border collies with good temperaments for agility...

 

I would never try to sell one of my dogs to someone looking for a "working" dog and wanting to do USBCHA open trials. I'm not saying that my dogs are not capable of doing USBCHA trials but they've not been proven to be capable. So a person looking for a working dog is better off with a pup bred from trialing parents and a breeder that trials regularly.

 

We are in agreement there.

[juliepoudrier]

Karen,

My mistake--I read your descriptions wrong. I now see that it's not the sires (or dam in the first case) of the pups listed that are running in open, but *their* sires (that is, the grandparents). That's where I was confusing things. Well except for the litter of 6, which seem to have been sired by a national finals placing cattledog? Or are you saying it is the bitch's sire who ran in the cattledog finals and regularly runs in open trials. Or am I still confusing things? I understand that you don't do herding yourself, but since you are stating the type of herding your dogs or their parents do, I'm just trying to figure out the connection (that is, who's who).

 

J.

[Karen Moureaux]

Julie,

 

My point is that i'm not claiming to be breeding BC's for herding. I breed really nice BC's for agility. Shoot me.

 

Litter # 1 was sired by national finals placing cattle dog.

 

Litter # 2 the bitches parents run in open on sheep and cattle

 

Litter # 3 the grandsire is the same as the sire in litter #1 a national finals placing cattle dog.

[juliepoudrier]

Karen,

You can disregard my last post. After spending some time on your site, I figured it out!

 

J.

[Karen Moureaux]

Julie,

 

I am sorry if the shoot me comment sounded snotty. It's just that this discussion has been going on for so many years and people will never agree to disagree. I like my dogs. They are nice BC's and I'm doing the best that I can while breeding for the sport that I love and have been involved in since 1989.

[Rave]

As Karen has mentioned, her breeding program is strictly for sport, and while some of us don't agree with that, that is unfortunately the current trend in the sporting world. While I don't know what Karen charges per pup, people are paying upwards of $1000 for some of these sport collies, so there's definitely a market and I'd say these pups are going to some nice homes (after all, $1000 is a big investment!). Breeding for sport is a disappointing trend, but these people are competitive and want to win-win-win and the sport collie is just the "tool" they need to get to the winner's circle.

 

-Laura

[SoloRiver]

I guess the reason we can't agree to disagree is that the idea of breeding "nice BCs" is, to many of us, totally incompatible with the idea of disregarding the very traits that define the breed in the first place.

 

In any breed, producing good specimens requires breeding for type. In Border Collies, "type" is defined by working ability. "Working ability" refers to working on livestock. This describes both the heritage and current utility of the breed.

 

Working livestock -- to a very high standard -- has always been an essential part of the identity of this breed. Disregarding it when making breeding decisions seems as odd to me as the idea of disregarding size when breeding toy dogs. I personally prefer my Pomeranians to weigh over ten pounds, but I can understand why if I bred such dogs, most responsible Pomeranian breeders would think I wasn't breeding very nice Poms.

 

To me, sport-bred dogs are either evolving into a separate breed or are already there. I've met a lot of sport-bred dogs who I thought were great dogs, but I don't know that I would say they were good examples of Border Collies. This is not a moral judgment. We all want different things in our dogs. But a dog that is different by design is just that, different.

 

You are very up-front about what your dogs are and what they're bred for and I appreciate that. I also believe that they are healthy, athletic, attractive dogs who are good at what they do and beloved by their owners. I don't have anything against your dogs -- I don't have anything against any dogs. I'm sure they are great dogs. I love dogs, period. What I have a hard time wrapping my mind around is your breeding goals, because our ideas about what defines the breed are obviously very different. I think that breeding Border Collies for something other than herding ability is kind of like selecting for black Samoyeds or giant Chihuahuas. That's a pretty fundamental disagreement and it's why this discussion never gets put to bed.

 

I guess I think that breeding for sport produces nice sport dogs, but that those dogs, down the line, are not or will not necessarily be Border Collies. I also think that Border Collies who were selected for herding ability tend to make excellent sport dogs, but that the converse tends not to be true. So if the goal is to retain the essence of the breed while also producing great sport dogs, it seems to me that selecting for herding ability is the way to go.

 

I appreciate that you've come here, engaged in the discussion, and remained polite. This tends to be a topic that lends itself to highly emotional, confrontational discussions, but you know that already I am sure.

[Bill Fosher]

Karen,

 

A lot of us just find it unfortunate that you have chosen to use Border collies as your avenue to recreation, and that you have chosen to support the AKC. I don't care to shoot you, but I would like you to understand that while you may love your dogs (as I love mine) and enjoy them (as I enjoy mine), my dogs are part of my livelihood as a sheep producer. Without them, I couldn't do my work.

 

You may or may not be making money off your dogs as a breeder and agility trainer -- I don't even want to go into that debate. But your persuit is at its heart recreational, while mine is vocational. I rely on there being good working dogs available, and having the gene pool out there to draw upon. When the AKC got its grubby mitts on these dogs and started making them into something they had never been before, I saw that as a threat to my livelihood. I can't abide anything -- sport dog breeders, conformation ring breeders, pet stores, puppy mills, even the Home Again microchip -- that supports the AKC.

 

While what you are doing is probably less harmful than the breed ring, it still undermines the breed by breeding it for reasons and to a standard other than the one that created the breed. Technically speaking, what you're breeding are no more Border collies than the breed ring fluffballs because you're not breeding them to a working standard.

[blackacre]

Well, good for you Karen.

However, you apparently feel that the fact that your breeding stock came from working lines is worth boasting about. I assume you feel this adds something significant to your lines. Do you have any trouble reconciling this with your stated purpose of breeding for agility only? Or do you assume that others will keep the working lines intact for you to dip into at will?

Andrea

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

The reason people here get tense when you "breed for the sport I love" is that we believe the breeding should be about breeding for the BREED we love, ie, producing the best possible Border Collies. The only way to keep Border Collies the way they were passed down to us is to breed the way our predcessors did - using the work as a selection process, the ISDS Open trial specifically.

 

It's actually not a free world - in some countries, you would be required to put a working (herding) title on your breeding stock before breeding. Not a very advanced one - but there you would HAVE to find time to include the evaluation of your dogs' working ability in your breeding program.

 

I have a dog whose grandsires on top and bottom were International Supreme Champions (##Ben and Wisp), and one level up is one more Supreme winner, and the next level up from that includes two more (Craig and Wiston Cap). He was bred by a pet breeder who happened to have really awesome stock - but his awesome lines were combined without thought to what they would produce, his parents working styles were never considered, and Ben himself can't work his way out of a paper bag. He's really decent at agility though I've never had time to compete.

 

I say this to point out that it's simply useless to list your pups' predecessors as proof that working ability is still present in your lines.

 

As far as qualifying for the Nursery Finals, my previous pup did that twice. My friend's pound pup did it before she had any flank commands on her. It's what you do when you get there that matters to me - it's kind of like the difference between futurity races and how you do in the Belmont - it will be the youngsters that can go the extra couple of furlongs (literally) that even make it around the course.

 

The Open trial course is STILL the only real test of a herding dog's muster.

[Karen Moureaux]

"The Open trial course is STILL the only real test of a herding dog's muster."

 

 

I agree. But how many breeders are breeding only BC's that have been tested on the Open trial course? My guess is that even the top herding breeders are not exclusively breeding Open trial course winners to Open trial course winners.

 

Let's let my pup that's in training grow up a little and hopefully he will have the talent to compete on the Open trial course. He's got to have the opportunity and training which I will make sure he gets. Then we'll see how my agility bred BC does on an open trial course.

[SoloRiver]

Hi Karen,

 

You're right when you point out that the majority of Border Collie breeders are not really testing the herding ability of their dogs. It's unfortunate and true. It's also true that the majority of breeders in almost every breed are just plain crappy breeders.

 

But that's a separate discussion from this one. Irresponsible breeders who just don't give a crap about the dogs they produce and what happens to them are there in every breed, and what responsible breeders do doesn't affect them much. This discussion is about what responsible breeders, who care about their dogs, their quality, and what happens to them, do. I think that you are probably a responsible breeder, but that we have different ideas about what breeding goals should be.

 

The backyard breeders and puppymills and Farmer Joe who drowns the ones he can't sell aren't paying attention to the discussion we're having. We're talking about the merits of various breeding goals. They don't have breeding goals, other than how many puppies can they make in how little time for how little money. A very different discussion. I don't blame responsible Lab breeders for the fact that the majority of purebreds in shelters around here are Labs.

 

I think it is a good idea to train and trial your new pup -- not because you want to show us all, but because then you'll know what you have. I like Rebecca have an example of a dog with excellent bloodlines who was not bred with care and is of limited talent when it comes to working sheep, although he does dearly love his sheep and I do work him regularly. I wish his alleles had lined up a little better. My other dog is an imported Welsh bitch, and I run her in USBCHA trials (we just moved up to Ranch, she is my first trial dog and second Border Collie). It is breathtaking to send her on a gigantic outrun, to watch her fly out with joy and gusto, and bring the sheep directly to me with no commands, and it breaks my heart that my other dog -- who is my favorite and my soulmate -- will never know that beauty. It breaks my heart that I will never walk him to the post and send him in a trial. I wish the man who bred him had cared a little less about his color and a little more about ability.

 

He's a fantastic agility dog, though.

 

If your pup turns out to be the best working dog ever, I'll be the first to admit it. Here, we admire dogs on the basis of what they do, not where they come from.

[Karen Moureaux]

Melanie,

 

"My other dog is an imported Welsh bitch, and I run her in USBCHA trials (we just moved up to Ranch, she is my first trial dog and second Border Collie)."

 

Is this Welsh bitch the dog your website refers to as a "mail order bride" for your Solo the dog that has no herding talent? Does the term "mail order bride" mean that at one time you were planning on breeding them?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I can confirm even before Melanie answers that the term "mail order bride" was a joke and always has been. Solo was neutered soon after Melanie adopted him and way before Fly was even a twinkle in Melanie's checking account.

 

Good luck with your pup and I hope he or she helps open up for you the world these dogs were meant to live in.

[Rave]

hahahahahahahahahaha

Karen, I'm sure Melanie will answer, but the short answer is NO.

[Eileen Stein]

Hi Karen,

 

I see now that you weren't taking issue with any factual statements, but with the disapproval that many of us feel toward breeding border collies for purposes other than herding. Several people have now explained this very well, but let me try to add my own thoughts (which some of you may have heard before ).

 

The border collie breed was developed by farmers and ranchers breeding to a working standard. They needed dogs who could get the job done, and they bred to produce dogs that would be more and more able, useful and dependable at doing the job. That is what a border collie IS -- a dog bred for herding ability.

 

But herding ability encompasses so much -- so many knowledges, skills and abilities refined to so high a standard -- that dogs bred for herding ability are good at nearly everything else, including dog sports like obedience and agility. So it doesn't surprise me that folks who do obedience and agility wanted to use these dogs. I have no problem with that at all -- good for them. But I do have a problem with people breeding these dogs for sports, without regard to their working ability, and continuing to call them border collies. By doing that, they change and diminish the border collie breed, which is a bad thing IMO.

 

I can understand your choosing border collies to do agility with. But why did you want to breed them, rather than buying pups from working-bred dogs? I suppose it must be that you thought you could breed dogs that would be better at agility than the working-bred dogs, if you selected for the best agility traits based on your knowledge as an experienced agility person. That's how breeding works -- in general, if you know what you're doing, you get what you breed for. But as you continue breeding for agility, with each generation you will lose herding ability, because you're not selecting for it, and without constant selection pressure for herding ability at every generation, the delicate balance of complex traits that go into herding ability will dwindle away. Your current pup may be able to herd, but if you are not knowledgeable about herding ability, his children will be less able, and his children's children even less so. This generation of sports breeders are running on fumes; they're not replenishing the tank. Before long the dogs they produce will not be border collies by the traditional definition of what the breed is.

 

So how about naming your sport-bred dogs something else? If the Parson Russell people could change the name of their AKC breed, why couldn't you? Name them KC Collies, or Sport Collies, or something like that, and we'll all love you. The issue of implicit and not-so-implicit misrepresentation will disappear.

 

You also wrote:

 

>

 

No, not exclusively, but they don't need to. If you understand herding ability and working dog pedigrees thoroughly, you can make a good assessment of what crosses will produce superior ability. You don't need to look just to Open wins or other formulae (although they are the accepted way of testing the quality of what you produce). Most of us don't have the depth of knowledge and intuitive art to breed this way, but the top herding breeders do. For example, I can think of more than one top breeder whose chief brood bitch was a terrific farm or hill dog who was too "hot" to excel at trials, but crossed beautifully with a number of males to produce tremendous Open trial and working dogs. But that shouldn't be an excuse for people who know little or nothing about herding to breed dogs who are not successful at the Open level, because without the expertise your results just won't be the same.

[karrider]

I haven't really had much time to sit and really read throught the majority of this thread ,but thought you all may be interested to know that a very well known Border Collie breeder here in the UK(one who has exported working dogs all over the world) and a respected trainer and author is currently training a 6 month old dog who is 6 generations from working stock, he is very pleased with him ,if anybody is interested I can ask for up to date reports on his training???

Karin

[Denise Wall]

thought you all may be interested to know that a very well known Border Collie breeder here in the UK(one who has exported working dogs all over the world) and a respected trainer and author is currently training a 6 month old dog who is 6 generations from working stock, he is very pleased with him ,if anybody is interested I can ask for up to date reports on his training???

 

No, I believe you. There will always be the flukes. Does that dog or the few like it mean to you that there's no need or point in selecting for working ability?

 

Answer me this question -- If you really needed a dog for stockwork, I mean real work not "herding with your border", would you choose a dog six generations from working stock or one from proven working stock?

[karrider]

Answer me this question -- If you really needed a dog for stockwork, I mean real work not "herding with your border", would you choose a dog six generations from working stock or one from proven working stock?

 

 

Actually I would probably buy a started dog,the backround would be immaterial.

 

I do not believe that the dog being trained by Roy or the dog I bred are flukes, if you look at it like that are the dogs bred from working parents that do not work also flukes???,works both ways doesn't it.

 

 

Karin

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

That's too bad. I wish you did have time.

 

>

 

Is he being paid to train the dog? In any case, I think you can wait awhile on the updates -- six months old is a little young for any meaningful assessment.

 

If I guess the initials of the trainer, will you read the thread?

[karrider]

Sure will, unfortunately as we are so short staffed at work I have been landed with more night duty plus extra day duties than I like to do, doesn't leave much time for the dogs or the computer, oh and the family of course!!!

Karin

[SoloRiver]

Is this Welsh bitch the dog your website refers to as a "mail order bride" for your Solo the dog that has no herding talent? Does the term "mail order bride" mean that at one time you were planning on breeding them?

 

Sigh.

 

I see that being nice and trying to have a conversation was pointless. The joke has already been explained by other folks. Nice try at derailing the discussion, though.

 

To defend my dog, who I have no wish to defame, Solo has some talent on sheep. He's got tons of try and would keep working until he dropped, even if wasn't doin' so good. (This is a quality that makes him great fun to train in agility -- he can literally train for an hour straight without any mental fatigue and be raring for more.) He's really good at some herding things and not very good at other herding things. It's the typical hodge-podge you'd expect with a dog who is the result of conflicting priorities in breeding -- he got some of the good stuff, but he also got holes that are difficult to paper over with training and handling.

 

He could quite easily finish advanced AKC titles on the A-course (he even likes to drive) but lacks the finesse and control to do a real ISDS-type course except under ideal conditions (on a field he knows, with sheep he knows, handled by a very talented handler, i.e., not me). He can't handle the pressure.

 

He is probably good enough at herding that a person breeding for an "all-around" dog would consider him a herding dog, but he is not a dog that anyone interested in serious working dogs would ever consider breeding, even if he didn't have a faulty temperament, which he does. From the information I've been able to put together regarding his background (he is a rescue), he is most likely the result of a color breeding.

 

He is handsome and red, though. On one occasion, I was approached at an agility trial and asked if he was intact and was I thinking about breeding him, purely on the basis of his color and structure (he's put together very nicely).

 

Different priorities produce different dogs. Sport and conformation dogs are different from working dogs by intent and design. I am not sure why anyone is offended when working dog people point this out.