Conformation Herding Champion

[SoloRiver]

Karrider,

 

Who's defensive?

 

If there's some superstar herding Barbie Collie out there, you bet your ass I want to see it. The thing about us working folks, you must remember, is that we value a dog primarily for what it does. I don't know a single person who would say anything bad about a pretty dog as long as he can get the job done. All I can say is, put up or shut up. People keep telling me that Barbie Collies are just as good with sheep as Border Collies are. So where are they? How come they're never at the National Finals? At the Supreme? (And you can't make some noise about how they're on the REAL working farms -- because I know for a fact that the majority of farm dogs are Border Collies, not Barbie Collies. And besides, the real Border Collies still somehow manage to find time to compete in the real trials...) Why is it that the Barbie Collies I've seen trying to work (the ones that would look at the sheep, that is) never progressed enough to get out of the 100x200 foot pen?

 

Where are you guys hiding all the good ones?

 

Tell me -- you're a breeder. You get what you select for, yes? Does it not stand to reason that when you select for working ability, you increase your chances of getting good working dogs? That when you breed for coat, you increase your chances of getting fluffy dogs? And so on.

 

I am willing to believe that there are Barbie Collies out there who can work sheep with some facility. But those dogs, should they exist, are happy accidents. They are sports. They are flukes. People who value working ability are not willing to wait for flukes to occur. Working flukes are not likely to pass on their fluke abilities.

 

There was an AKC conformation champion (a Maltese, if I remember correctly) who was originally bought from a pet store. So, it can apparently happen that a puppy mill produces a breed ring dog. This is at least as believable as the idea that a top-notch working dog could result from a breeding program that doesn't select for working ability. Still, if I were looking for a dog to show in breed, I wouldn't go to a pet store. Would you? How do you like those odds?

 

Conformation breeders do not expect traits like ear set, tail set, markings, quality of coat, etc. to just kind of hang around in the breeding population without being selected for. How can they then expect that the much more complex behavioral traits required of a good working dog will just kind of hang out for generations in their boofy show dogs?

 

Breeding is an inexact science, and we don't always get what we want in our dogs regardless of what we're selecting for -- but selection is still a matter of bettering your odds. The odds that a conformation-bred dog, from generations of breeding decisions that disregard working ability, is going to be an excellent working dog are simply not that good. The occasional exception that might (and I say "might" because to a dog, the "exceptions" that have been presented to me have never proved to be what they were represented as) randomly crop up among the boofy dogs only proves the rule: you get what you select for.

 

If Barbie Collies were just as good at working as real Border Collies are, they'd be used just as often and be competing on equal fields and you know what, they're just not out there. And it isn't because they're too busy doing other things, it's because they just don't have what it takes. You get what you select for. As a breeder, I am sure you understand that.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

The term "defensive," in psychology, is defined as "constantly protecting oneself from criticism, exposure of one's shortcomings, or other real or perceived threats to the ego." If the subject under discussion is conformation-bred border collies, it seems to me only those who breed them could be said to be defensive about them.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm still chuckling at the ANKC's standard - section on movement especially:

 

Movement

 

The movement is free, smooth and tireless, with a minimum lift of the feet, conveying the impression of the ability to move with great stealth. The action, viewed from the front, should be straight forward and true, without weakness at shoulders, elbows or pasterns. Viewed from behind the quarters thrust with strength and flexibility, with hocks not close nor too far apart. When trotting, the dog's feet tend to come closer together as speed increases, but when the dog comes to rest he should stand four square. Any tendency to stiltiness or to cowhocks or bowhocks is a serious fault.

This dog would be laughed out of the breed ring: http://www.pbase.com/image/29890788

 

Note also the prick ears and smooth coat. Too bad - Star looked so good last weekend - but any breed judge could tell you by looking that he couldn't herd his way out of a paper bag.

[Bill Fosher]

Not too much to add to what others have written here -- and in similar debates that have gone before it.

 

I would re-emphasize that to say that breeders and owners of working dogs owe a moral debt to conformation breeders is akin to saying that the victims of a burglary owe a moral debt to the housebreakers.

 

The Border collie breed was doing just fine, thank you very much, before it was shown in any breed ring anywhere in the world. Its working ability has improved since conformation showing started elsewhere, and it has continued to improve in North America in the last nine years since the AKC tried to hijack it. Not because of but despite the breed ring.

 

I am confident that it will continue to improve after the AKC closes its studbooks (which can't happen soon enough for my taste) and allows us to get on with our breed of dogs and, as was said earlier, drives its own version of the breed into a ditch.

 

This is one of the healthiest, heartiest, and most useful domesticated aniamls on the face of the earth. In the short time that the fancy has been mucking around with it,at least one fatal genetic disease has been introduced. How much more of this kind of improvement can the breed stand?

 

I've often been asked the very question that you posed early on in this post. Why can't working sheepdogs conform to a physical standard? My question is why should we limit ourselves? Why discriminate against working ability in any of the packages in which it comes -- most of which have at least one major fault when judged against a conformation standard -- when working ability is so hard to develop and maintain?

 

Sure, you can have your herding tests and arena trials and give each other lots of titles to put on your pedigrees to prove to yourselves that you've still got working instinct in your dogs. I would imagine that there is still some there, and it will probably linger for a few more years yet. But it won't last. in another decade, you'll have succeeded in undoing what took shepherds centuries of unrecognized work: to develop and hone into the best stockdog in the world.

 

All just so they can look a certain way. It makes no sense to me.

[Bill Fosher]

P.S. -- I own four beautiful Border collies, but not one of the is titled in conformation. Nor will they be. I don't even know how tall they are at the shoulders.

 

What I know about them are the following:

 

Molly is 11 years old, and still wants to work. She can't jump over 4 foot fences any more, and she doesn't have the speed to cover breakaway sheep. She does, however, have the finesse and wisdom to keep them from breaking away. In her younger days, she has gathered sheep from as much as a mile away, and helped me tend sheep on terrain that was inaccessible on an ATV.

 

Bess is my lambing dog. I've never seen a dog so well-suited to handling baby lambs with discipline, kindness, and determination. She has never hurt a lamb, but they have never beaten her either. Those of you who work around ewes with lambs at their feet will understand that accomplishment.

 

Tweed is the Next Big Thing. At three, he's ready for some polish. He's got a 500-yard outrun, and loves to pen and shed. He lacks confidence driving.

 

Nap is a new kind of dog for me. He's not as senstive as my older dogs have been, and he's keen enough to work that I really have something I can work with. He's what one of my friends refers to as a "man's dog." The question in my mind is whether I am man enough to train him.

[juliepoudrier]

Well said, Bill F. Not one of my dogs matches any conformation standard as far as I know, but by God, they sure are beautiful when they are doing what they are meant to do, which is work stock.

 

J.

[Rave]

Sea Biscuit was far from being the "perfect" specimen of a horse, but look what he accomplished. He certainly would not have won for looks with his small size and crooked legs, but boy could he run.

[workindogs]

Originally posted by rtphokie:

Sea Biscuit was far from being the "perfect" specimen of a horse, but look what he accomplished. He certainly would not have won for looks with his small size and crooked legs, but boy could he run.

It's call Heart.....something that is not recognized and is certainly not written in the "standard" that the conformation world lives by.

 

Conformation breeding does not give any credence to what is in the dog's head and heart: instinct, power, balance, scope, courage, determination, intelligence......things that go far beyond color, coat, topline, ear set and other meaningless criteria. The Heart of a working border collie is tested and proven in real stock work....it can't be tested in the conformation ring, jumping through hoops, chasing a ball or moving ducks around a small arena.

[concrete]

Originally posted by Bill Fosher:

.

 

 

I am confident that it will continue to improve after the AKC closes its studbooks (which can't happen soon enough for my taste) and allows us to get on with our breed of dogs and, as was said earlier, drives its own version of the breed into a ditch.

 

 

You got to wonder why they don't close their stud book. After all from what they say our dogs are full of genetic defects and just plain ugly. Why would they want them. If they would just close their stud book we could go our separate ways and that would be that.

 

Kevin Brannon

[Doug Boyder]

I have searched the Internet for responsible Border Collie breeders with a mix of Conformation and Herding, and have found http://www.bordercollies.nl/ in the Netherlands.

 

I think this Breeder has the right idea. I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong.

[Sue R]

This site, Nice of You to Come Bye, is beautifully constructed. But that doesn't escape the fact that they are breeding show dogs, not working Border Collies.

 

If you go to the pedigree page, the test for Herding Instinct results comes right after Coat Color Inheritance (and after Pedigree, Hip Testing results, and Eye Testing results, all good information), and prior to Functional Body Shape. It does, however, come before Show Results.

 

Any Border Collie site that devotes so much attention to coat colors and breeding for coat colors is another tip-off that they are breeding for conformation.

 

I did not go through all the pedigree pages but for those I did peruse, I found no records of trial results or commentary on any individual dogs actually do real work on farms.

 

And, if the standard in the Netherlands for the Herding Instinct Test is anything like it is for the AKC and other conformation registries, it may simply mean that the dog chased the sheep and ran around them. By the standards used in "testing" in this country, just about anything with four legs that you set loose in the pasture could be evaluated as having herding instinct.

 

I note that some of the dogs were rated as Very Good, but some also rate with what appears to be a minimal amount of "instinct". Herding Instinct Tests are really a poor assessment of working ability and instinct, and this site seems to show no significant "proof" of working ability, as far as I could see.

 

In summary, lovely site, but not real working Border Collies. Just another breeder, apparently, of show dogs, who seems to believe they are breeding quality working dogs, but aren't.

 

I, for one, don't believe this is an example of responsible breeding of working Border Collies, and I believe those on the board who really work, train, and breed working Border Collies will agree with me.

[Denise Wall]

Doug,

 

Sorry but this is exactly what we are talking about -- people breeding conformation dogs that are only pretending that they're also breeding working dogs. There is no good "mix" of conformation and herding here. Although I saw lots of pictures of their dogs in their conformation pose, I saw no pictures of any of their dogs working stock. The herding instinct test results mean nothing to me. It's like sticking their toe in the wading pool while the real dogs are out swimming across the ocean and claiming it's the same thing.

 

I agree the site is well put together and informative.

 

Denise

[HKM's Mom]

Doug,

I am sending some links to true herding breeders and then "working" dog breeders, and then conformation breeders.

Herding:

http://kuykendall-bc.com/

Working::

http://www.bordercollie.tv/

Conformation:

http://www.wildairbordercollies.com/

Here's one you can guess for yourself:

http://bonnidune.com/

 

More experienced board members, if I have mislabeled any of these please correct me. I am not picking on any of these sites or people. I am just giving you examples of breeders with a focus in different areas.

[Denise Wall]

Doug,

 

Forget about the colors and the coat. Look into their eyes. This is what they should look like:

 

[Rave]

HKM's mom, the 2nd site you list there (the "working" one) is better classified as a "sport" breeder, which most of us would not classify as a "working" breeder.

 

Denise, VERY nice pic! Is that your dog?

 

-Laura

[Denise Wall]

Laura,

 

Thanks. That pic is of Judy Mason's Ben at Edgeworth last fall. Here's one of my dogs, Mick, also showing what I mean:

 

[Eileen Stein]

HKM's Mom: I would describe www.bordercollie.tv as Sport. I'd describe the Kuykendall site as either Herding or Working.

 

Doug: The site you reference is pretty clearly a conformation breeder, who includes some descriptions of herding, but whose dogs don't work. They get conformation titles. Talking about herding, giving lip service to herding, is not the same thing as herding, though conformation breeders often don't seem to realize that.

 

What you don't seem to get is that a real herding dog can and does perform work that is of value, work that is necessary to the management of livestock. They are useful dogs. If working border collies' herding ability diminishes (as it inevitably would if breeders began selecting for both conformation and herding), there are real-life consequences for the livestock producers who depend on the dogs. If conformation border collies can't pass their herding instinct test, there are no consequences -- those conformation breeders just continue to rhapsodize about herding and make the herding instinct tests easier. And heaven knows they're easy enough already -- as this makes pretty clear, failure is not an option. Obviously, if you set your standards low enough, just about any border collie breeder can claim that they're breeding herding dogs. But alas, that doesn't make it true.

[HKM's Mom]

I was using "working" in the term of sport dogs or dogs doing something other than true herding. That's why I put in in quotes, but I guess I wasn't very clear. Thank you for clearing it up before I confused anyone.

[workindogs]

The owner of http://www.bordercollie.tv/ describes her breeding goals as:

 

"The performance Border Collie is our specialty. Contact Point Border Collies are bred for excellent temperament, good health, high drive and the desire to please their trainer."

 

Nothing here about working stock.

 

This site is selling "Performance Border Collies"...nearly 30 puppies produced in 2003 for this purpose. The bloodlines are primarily working, but these dogs are bred for agility. Two of three stud dogs are blue merle with the third carrying blue merle genes. Many of the pups are blue merle and some red and red merle.

 

Actually, this site disturbs me much more than the others as the breeder is breeding from working lines but is not breeding for working ability.....they are being bred for agilty and color.

 

The other sites are clearly selecting from conformation lines to produce conformation dogs. Nice of You to Come Bye has used some working lines but is definitely showing a preference for Australian show dogs.

[Karen Moureaux]

Hi -

 

I just joined the boards. I'd like to set a couple of things straight..

 

"This site is selling "Performance Border Collies"...nearly 30 puppies produced in 2003 for this purpose."

 

The nearly 30 puppies was actually 29 pups that came from 3 litters.

 

The 1st litter (6 pups) was an agility champion bitch bred to AKC herding champion and USBCHA cattle dog finals placing dog. The sire regularly runs in open BC trials and the bitch has an AKC started title and HRD dog titles. Not impressive herding titles but that is not my daughters focus. Agility is.

 

The 2nd litter (12 pups) is out of my bitch that's dam was the top AKC herding dog in 2002 & 2003 and also runs in open in USBCHA trials. Her sire is also an AKC breed champion/herding champion and USBCHA open trial dog. My bitch has a started herding title. The sire is an agility dog running in excellent and masters. He's been on sheep and would love to be a herding dog but he's my up and coming competition agility dog and I'm not going to send him out for training and I am not a herding trainer. I leave that to people that are much more knowledgeable and experienced than I am in herding.

 

The 3rd litter (11 pups) is out of a bitch with an AKC started herding title and the sire is out of herding dogs AKC Herding Champion and USBCHA open level running dogs. The sire will be going to Nebraska for herding training and trialing in September.

 

A pup from the first litter is now in training in Nebraska and after 4 mos has his AKC started title and one HIT. He will be campaigned in USBCHA trials and hopefully will qualify for the nursery finals on sheep and cattle next year. He is 16 mos old and showing alot of promise. He will also continue to compete in AKC herding.

 

It's a free world.

 

Most of the pups I sell go to agility homes. I am an agility person and have been doing agility with Border Collies since 1989. I'm not ashamed of that. None of my dogs have shown in the breed ring. Not because they aren't really nice dogs but because unfortunately most of the judges do not put up the type of dogs I breed. I personally have no desire to show a dog in the breed ring.

 

I breed athletic, working dogs with good temperaments.

 

"The bloodlines are primarily working, but these dogs are bred for agility. Two of three stud dogs are blue merle with the third carrying blue merle genes. Many of the pups are blue merle and some red and red merle."

 

And what does color have to do with anything?

 

"Actually, this site disturbs me much more than the others as the breeder is breeding from working lines but is not breeding for working ability.....they are being bred for agilty and color."

 

How would you know what I'm doing?

[Caroline]

The phrase "AKC Herding Champion" means little in the working border collie world. I would hope Ms.Moreaux, who has competed worldwide in agility and done a great job in that sport, would understand that statement. I have competed for 8 years in USDAA and NADAC agility. It was fun, competitive and a good time. It doesn't give me the feeling herding does. It is just a different world. I strongly think that if AKC continues its breeding pattern, those dogs eventually won't be good at agility either. Brains before beauty, remember that saying? Color doesn't have to do with anything, that is the point. AKC has NOTHING to offer the working border collie.

Caroline, Charlie and Luke

[Karen Moureaux]

I do understand that the AKC Herding Champion title basically = zilch with herding people. But these same dogs are running and doing very well in USBCHA herding trials and that does mean something to herding people. The dog can't help what people think of the sponsoring organization. They just want to work. AKC Herding Champion titles are nice but don't mean alot to me either but I'll be pleased when my dog earns one just like I'll be pleased when he qualifies for the nursery finals. He's a good dog and deserves the right to herd in any organization.

[Bill Fosher]

HI Karen,

 

Would you describe for me the difference between AKC and USBCHA trials? I have never been to an AKC trial -- just saw one herding instinct test and read the regs for AKC trials. SInce you run in both, I'd be interested in hearing your assessment of the strong and weak points of each system of selecting the next generation of stock dogs.

[Sue R]

Correct me if I am wrong, but most of us equate "working" with herding and USBCHA or ISDS trialling (NOT AKC type "trialling"). And I do believe you are correct in calling agility, etc., venues as "sport".

[Karen Moureaux]

Bill,

 

Did you read my post? I do NOT run in herding trials and haven't claimed to. I do claim to be an agility person. My dog is in herding training and some of the dogs that I have bred TO run in open trials.

 

I don't really see the point in dragging this out.