Pam Wolf Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Julia, not to say ALL dual ISDS/KC dogs are not workers, but they do exist. Just like some who have reg'd AKC have done so for export reasons. Unfortunately, the reasons for many does not lie in the export of quality working dogs. The example I gave was to educate those who are not aware of the possibility that ISDS dogs can be dual reg'd and could essentially be show bred. Go back and read Wendy's post Sorry, Bill, but your posts do seem to strongly imply that you favor the trials only dogs. Too bad this isn't a perfect world. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Margaret, I'm not frustrated yet,just disheartened a bit in behalf of the working Border Collies. If I'll get to the point of utter frustration,I might take up on my husband's offer,buy the "Supreme Champion dog" every year,he tells me it will be lot less cheaper,both financially and emotionally. Tell me something, I don't know anything about your fights with the AKC in behalf of the working Jack Russell's. I'm sure your registry lost good dogs to the AKC. Can yu point me towards a web site where I could read and try to make some sense out of it? ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Wendy - I don't think the "course" should be the test...I don't think it should be as stringent as the ROM...but again, that is something that would need to be worked out in committee... For "general registry" leaving out the ranch dogs would be a mistake - no matter what Pam manages to read into (or out of my posts, I don't know hom much clearer it can be said), ranch and farm dogs should be the backbone of the regisry - but these dogs should WORK - not just hang onto tails and sic 'em...some definition of "outrun, lift, fetch and drive" as well as the close work of penning or alley work would need to be decided. The status could be "WT" for work tested, for crying out loud...and "C" dogs could be "SFB" for S**t for brains, that shouldn't be the key issue at this time... And Margaret and Inci - I think most working dog breeders are very concerned about health, as Inci says, none of us want to put hundreds of hours into a dog that goes lame...but my point is that the registry shouldn't hold the "magic keys" to those decisions...it is a REGISTRY...not a Health organization... I don't have time to post to both of these threads - so I'm going to post only to the ABCA one from here on in...it's been fun, but can't we move it to there? For those that aren't members - send in your membership app... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Inci, First, our website http://www.terrier.com/ has some great information on our history, and all our registration and work policies are there. In and of themselves they really are a testament to our oppposition to our old enemy the AKC. As to our new enemies, if you want,I will send you some websites and bb addy's, but please if you go there, don't attract their attention. They might follow you here and try to hurt you/me and maybe your club. They will do it for the hell of it, because they can. Sound paranoid don't I? Well let's remember that even paranoids have enemies! Also, I can't emphasize enough though that we essentially won our fight with the AKC. Very few good dogs were lost to them. Yes they recognized us, but only a small percentage of people went. Only one real good dog went. We have a pet heavy registry too, but our trials provide pretty good opportunities for dog sports, and our pet folks have been wonderfully supportive. The trouble came when a small coalition of AKC/disaffected JRTCA folks came up with a clever idea for harassing us legally. But the worst problem came out of the fact that we have let conformation showing within the JRTCA grow out of control, and because we have done relatively little to encourage work or to support working people. So, a group of powerful and power hungry JRTCA conformation breeders have siezed this opportunity to destabilize the club from within. They are talking about leaving the JRTCA and starting a new club. Between the legal shenanigans and the power struggle instigated by "the big girls", the club has been profoundly destabilized. I have no idea what will happen to us. Our working people have been marginalized over the years and the few who are in power have been disenfranchised via the use of S-- B----'s skeleton in the closet approach. The only people who could truly stand up for us have been hamstrung or have responded to years of neglect by just being gone. ------------------ Margaret <-- no dog, no membership app retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 09-04-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 "They might follow you here and try to hurt you/me and maybe your club." Margaret, A small point of distinction. I never considered that working border collie supporters were members of a "club". The ABCA is a registry and the USBCHA is an association.....or is it that there is a secret club and no one invited me? Ah well, I will constantly endeavor to prove myself and my dogs, reaching for that ever ellusive "A" status. In listening to your stories about troubles within the JRTCA, I can't help but be impressed by all the activities that the club sought to govern....registry, conformation, working tests, agility, obedience. Actually, I am a bit surprised that a working registry would support conformation....do you think this may have contributed to the imbalance between working dogs and non-working dogs? Might this be a point of difference between the two breed organizations? Elizabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 I also have a Jack Russell terrier - she is spayed and was not registered, but I've learned some about the registry. (Margaret, correct me if I'm wrong about any of these points.) I have often wondered why the ABCA didn't look to the JRTCA more for ideas on how to keep a breed largely out of the AKC, but there are many differences and conformation is a big one. JRT's must conform to a physical standard in order to be registered. Conformation shows are a part of the clubs activities. I would never want this to play a part in registering border collies. There are a lot of things that the JRTCA owners can do sanctioned by the "club," even if they are not interested in hunting with their terriers, like races and "go to ground" things, (which I guess are like an "instinct test" but the terrier never gets to actually kill the vermin, since they are in a cage - I'm not sure, though, as I haven't attended one). This keeps income coming in for the club, fun for the owners and the dogs, and gives everybody a lot to do without turning to AKC events. I think it would be like the ABCA sponsoring agility, obedience and conformation as well as herding activities to keep everyone engaged... good for competing successfully with the AKC, and for having fun, but not much good for the working border collie. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Elizabeth, Yes and yes again. You have restated the bare bones of my two primary arguments. 1. Conformation is at the heart of a Jack Russell trial. This tradition began because the will to work formidable quarry cannot and probably should not be tested at a trial. Hence, the working dog class. Terriers who earn working certificates in the field are evaluated structurally( small compressible chest, angles that allow the dog to alternately fold and stretch as it pushes and corkscrews through the earth etc). Unfortunately we offer open (non-working) conformation too. Rather than teasing out the differences between our conformation and your herding, you might get more benefit from my "stories," if you considered the commonalities, such as the formation of high status groups that exercize disproportionate control over success in the ring and on the hill. 2. I think our efforts to broaden the scope of our club, our intent being to steward the dog and serve our membership have had the paradoxical effect of slightly detracting from the breed and greatly dividing our membership. While our rule making was much different than yours in kind, do you think the outcomes will necessarily be different? Do these differneces make our experience irrelevant to yours? Am I wasting your time and bandwidth with my "stories?" I wonder that myself. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 09-04-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Margaret, I'm not sure what you meant by: "the formation of high status groups that exercize disproportionate control over success in the ring and on the hill." No group or person has ANY control over "success" on the "hill," ouside of their breeding and training program and handling skills (both of stock and dog). Flock productuvity would be the gage of success on the "hill." The elusive "hill" is not here. It is in Great Britain, especially Scotland and Wales; a work place consisting of rugged terrain, a lot of sheep, a shepherd and his dogs. No audience, club, rules, standards, judges, honors, prizes, etc. We love to romanticize it. Even our most bona fide shepherds (like the Peruvian men in Idaho who live in the middle of nowhere with the range flocks in a tiny wagon with about 7 hard core dogs outside) are not working like the "hill shepherds" do. Some sheep dog trials have a "hill course" but it is not the same as the "HILL" that we poetically invoke when discussing border collie dogs. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Wow! Another hot button located. Fine, Laura I'm happy to hear it. Oh and sorry about the misuse of the scripture. BTW, did you know that I was born and raised in Idaho? The little Peruvian men are new! And, having a bit of basque in me...I expected you to use another example entirely. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 09-04-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 "the formation of high status groups that exercize disproportionate control over success in the ring and on the hill." Margaret, I am also confused by the meaning of this statement with regard to the commonalities between the ABCA/USBCHA and JRTCA. Elizabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 I mean that it would surprise me if you don't have a group of handlers and breeders who hold disproportionate influence over the success or failure of various endeavours but particularly success and failure at herding trials. If some sort of group like this does not exist within your community, you will be unique among the human communities of the world. Wow and I get to post on your BB. COOL! Laura and Elizabeth, Do I have the honor of being your special project? That's so....special! Goodbye for now. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Hot button?? Anyway! Whatever your or my definition of the "hill," (though I am curious about what you were saying there) I still don't get your meaning about the "high status groups". What would be some paralells between the ABCA/USBCHA and the JRTCA that would illustrate your point? Please explain, since I really do think that looking into the commonalities between these groups could be of use. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Thanks for the web site Margaret. I'll read and swear not to make any sound. I can't,I don't know anything about the breed. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 . I'll read and swear not to make any sound. I can't,I don't know anything about the breed. LOL!! and OUCH! ya got me Inci. Dang, Lady, language barrier or no, you can really get those zingers in. Oh, the JRTCA doesn't have any place like this. We are second fiddle to you guys in that respect too. The BB is offered by our deadly enemies. If you want the addy, let me know. But, I warn you it's terribly tempting to post! ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 09-04-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Oh,Margaret. You got me all wrong,I swear that was not meant as double entendre. You have an invested interest in Border Collies and you are to become a handler,all I saw was some awfully cute puppies (especially the one on the far left). ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 Inci, It was my own guilty conscience that got me. Barb and Laura and all, Thanks for asking me challenging questions, and thanks to Dawn Bailey for following up on your questions in email to me. After I calmed down, discussing some of this with Dawn I realized that you were sincerely asking for clarification. That's a rare thing and you deserve the best answer I could have given. Unfortunately I was too distracted and concerned on a personal level to understand that immediately. As things come up in the future I will try to discuss this further in an appropriate manner. Suffice it to say for now that I believe that all groups have strong sub-groups that often differ over important decisions and which often wield a lot of "unoffical" power. To my way of thinking this is not bad or good in and of itself. I don't think timberwolves are bad or good either, but if I had a ranch in southwestern Montana, I would certainly have a very strong opinion if I believed I was losing livestock to them. So, it may seem like I am implying that it is wrong somehow that powerful groups exist within the border collie community. I truly don't. Strenght is key to your survival. However, I do think that there are times that these groups act in ways that aren't useful or fair. That's when club politics get tough... First, these are super organizations, the ABCA, the USBCHA, the USBCC. As Barb points out these organizations have done a wonderful job of legislating enough and at the same time avoiding the intrusiveness that the JRTCA is often accused of. Particularly, I am incredibly impressed by the way the ABCA has used this board to share information and as a venue for discussion. Free access to the hearts and minds of other club members is something that no other club provides (as far as I know). Particularly, I think Eileen, Denise and Heather have done an outstanding job of overseeing discussions here and at the same time participating as members. That is a precarious balancing act, and one that I can't imagine for myself. As I look back over the last week, I am very worried that I have completely failed to acknowledge the general success of this board. More importantly I want to praise the particular fact that the ABCA board and the dual registration committee had the courage and commitment it took to bring the issue of dual registration to the board for members to discuss. To me, the largest obstacle to successful clubwork is the complicated intertwining of personal issues with the principles of the organization. In abstract, the two can be seperated. In reality personal relationships and personal politics are locked together. Here's an example from my life: Two wonderful friends stepped up and took my breed dogs when I realized that my personal situation was such that I could not keep them here any longer. They love Jack Russells and grow every day toward becoming great breeders and terriermen. Now, I have made it painfully clear that the AKC is not an organization I will choose for my dogs. If for some reason the JRTCA stopped being a viable registry for my terriers, I would simply stop registering them. But what should my attitude be toward my friends who have so kindly taken my dogs and who use them as they should be used? Should I exert my influence on them to always stay out of the AKC whether or not the JRTCA perseveres, to perhaps go so far as to refuse them a signed pedigree on the dogs if they are likely to register with the kennel club? That's a rhetorical question, in the sense that I have already answered it for myself, but it's a real question in so far as it focuses us on difficult choices that are involved in this business. In the heat of the moment it's very hard for me to remember that all of you have different circumstances than mine. Despite the fact that we can share many values and concerns, our slight but important differences are enough to cause us to choose very different courses of action. Is agreement an impossibility? NO! We can compromise with each other, postpone our interests based on the fact that that someone else's concerns must be met now. Agreement and common action is possible as long as there is a venue for open communication and discussion. The fact that the ABCA offers these forums and that dedicated individuals like Eileen and Heather support them is of premier importance to me and I think to all members of the border collie community. So, I want to apologize for becoming angry and negative during this discussion and to convey my gratitude to those who make the discussion itself possible. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 09-06-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 Margaret, thank you for your kind words. You wrote: > I think that, by and large, this is not the case. We don't have licensed judges. The trial host picks the judge, and tries to pick someone whose judgment will be respected. I have been judged by a handler who dual registers with the AKC, and feel I was judged with total fairness. That handler in turn has been judged at other trials by handlers who are totally opposed to dual registration, and I would be very surprised if he didn't think he too was judged fairly. To the extent there is any unfairness in judging, and as far as I can tell there isn't much, it would be a matter of individual bias of a particular judge, and not a group thing. I don't know how common or uncommon this is in human communities of the world. I have no reason to doubt that the situation is as you describe it in the JRTCA, but that may just be one example of the differences between us, and the reason why Elizabeth and Laura were honestly bewildered by your original statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 Oh Dear! Insult to injury. Elizabeth, my comments were addressed to you. Sorry yet again. Eileen, Thank you for thanking me for thanking you.... I assure you that I am not implying that there is favoritism in trial judging. I guess I would be surprised if there weren't some, but it doesnt really concern me one way or the other. I am more interested in the groups of folks who have a lot of influence over the way the breed is cared for overall. To find any value in what I am saying, it is necessary to accept the existence of social groups. If you accept the existence of such groups, the next issue becomes the groups themselves. How might they be described and defined? To me as a newcomer here, I see a number of sets of people who identify with each other and act cooperatively on both a formal and informal basis. Of course group boundaries are always changing and shifting, and many of us are members of a number of groups. And it is often the case that individuals find themselves in two groups that tend to have very different interests, but I think individuals tend to identify primarily with one. A very interesting instance to me is that the USBCHA and the ABCA exist independent of one another. Now that the time has arrived for me to join these organizations, I have to admit I am astonished to learn that this is the case. One group is officially charged with the registry of the breed while the other offically oversees the activities that are by and large accepted as the defining element for the breed, herding trials. My experience tells me that this fact needs careful consideration whenever one group or the other makes an important decision that will effect the other. It is the prestigous handler/breeders of the USBCHA that I was referring to in the post you quote from, but again I didn't mean to imply anything negative about this group. I just wanted to suggest strongly that it exists and should be considered carefully when any decision regarding the breed is made. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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