Britta Posted September 1, 2002 Report Share Posted September 1, 2002 I'd like to respect the privacy of the ABCA Thread but can't keep stumm. As most people know i'm very new to the world of Border Collies, hence my idas have a questionmark above them. I too read all the proposals and to me it appears that the future ban is the most popular as it upsets the least people. If the working ability of the dogs is in question should the 2 tier option not be the chosen one? I have two unregistered spayed Border Collies. BUT theoretically, if they were intact: 1) I get the herding bug (fact), 2)we get really good at it (fiction), 3)why do i need the dogs to be registered ? I could compete in all but National & International Trials (dream on), and should i get THAT good my dogs would get registered on merit! 4)If i want to breed them, only if they are that good, should i consider it anyway. Maybe it's different in America, but if trials are open to all why the worry about loosing members? Does a dog have to be registered with the ABCA to trial? If you are not stopping people doing what working dogs are supposed to do that should be the only worry. While i can see the huge popularity of agility, obedience, flyball and don't want to knock them, if these dogs could have a grade B membership that seems more than fair to me in a working registry. An owner and more so a breeder should be forced to decide where his/her priorities lie, and a 2 tier system would force people to chose. Only working ability should come into this??? Britta PS: Living where i do i do not think that it is the working Border Collie that needs to change its name,... - but we've discussed that before. (Since the AKC likes titles, maybe they can call their breed 'Border Collie AKC' Sounds very flashy ???) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted September 1, 2002 Report Share Posted September 1, 2002 Hello Britta, I am thinking more in favor of a two tiered system, but so far can only come up with abstracts. Once you try to work out the details, it becomes more work than, perhaps, we can handle. But as far as caring about registration numbers- the registry does need money to do its job. It costs money to maintain records, promote the working border collie, and contribute to research that helps the breed. So, if 22,000 dogs are going to registered somewhere next year- we do want the bulk of them to be with the proper Border Collie registry if we can do that and still maintain the integrity of the breed. Honestly, there is a large percentage of dogs that are not working quality- but I don't believe its the registry's role to determine that. Recording pedigrees is valuable information- and not just for breeding-quality dogs. The problem I'm finding with the two tiered system, or using the NB designation to control AKC eligibility- is that it relies too heavily on the compliance and integrity of a great many breeders who do not care. Or do not want to affect the value they can get for a pup, are not responsible for what they breed, or who want to take advantage of AKC sport homes. We can't exclude the dog that isn't a trial dog, but a great ranch dog from breeding, nor can we have a consistent fair test that wouldn't be easily taken advantage of by those who just want the designation of "working bred". What working test could we easily offer that would be available in 50 states that would have sufficient difficulty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 1, 2002 Report Share Posted September 1, 2002 Smoke and Britta, Why do you think any kind of punitive rules will change the behavior of people who don't share our values and beliefs? In my experience rules like these have very little real consequence except for a negative one: that is they are subverted by a wide variety of villains who use them gain unfair advantage in whatever petty endeavour they are involved in. Imagine that you had the power to accomplish one and only one thing that would strengthen the breed. Would it be a rule that had negative consequences for those who have dealings with AKC members or it's registry? Couldn't you think of something more powerful and positive? ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted September 1, 2002 Report Share Posted September 1, 2002 Smoke and Britta, Why do you think any kind of punitive rules will change the behavior of people who don't share our values and beliefs? >> I don't see where I've said I do believe that. I think discouraging people from doing certain things will reduce impact- or at least ferret out those who do not have convictions either way. In my experience rules like these have very little real consequence except for a negative one: that is they are subverted by a wide variety of villains who use them gain unfair advantage in whatever petty endeavour they are involved in.>> I'm not sure what rule you are referring to. But if you are referring to efforts to ban dual registration- I have to say that doing nothing is not the answer. Doing nothing is the cowards' way. Action now is crucial. I wish we had acted stronger before AKC extended the books, but that was hard to foresee. I have not decided what I think is the best action- but I do know that doing nothing at all is the wrong answer.I also know if we do not make a substantial decision now, the window for having an effect will close. Imagine that you had the power to accomplish one and only one thing that would strengthen the breed. Would it be a rule that had negative consequences for those who have dealings with AKC members or it's registry? Couldn't you think of something more powerful and positive?>> Why do I have to imagine that? I can do many things to strengthen the breed... that is why I can afford to support doing this one thing- banning dual registrations. Is it the only solution? Absolutely not! We cannot follow the path of past failures. We must do things that have not been done before in order to have a chance. That may include making unpopular decisions. We may lose initially, but I think in the long run it will be worth to cut all ties with AKC, both directly and indirectly. It is hard to stand up for what you believe it, if it was easy they would call it sitting for what you believe in . ------------------ Jaime R. Green http://www.hometown.aol.com/smokjbc/SmokinJbc.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 1, 2002 Report Share Posted September 1, 2002 I agree with you almost completely. I want to do something about the danger to working border collies as a breed. I have argued in several other posts that I don't think that negative rules are the answer. I think they are at best a stop gap and at worst just an incentive for backbiting and fingerpointing and can be used by wiley individuals to eliminate opposition. I have a huge imagination, it's a blessing and a burden. I suppose so it's easy for me to get lift off for utopia. I wasn't being condescending or trying to force you into something, just suggesting a mind experiment. Here's mine: I would wish for two super high quality USBCHA sanctioned regionals for every region under the auspices of the organization. At each of these regionals I would offer eye clinics and an inservice on hip disease along with some sort of incentive to get all breeding stock hip checked. I would ask regional agility and fly ball groups to hold events in the same area at the same time so that dog sports people could get together at the same time herding people did. At the end of each day I would have some yummy food served very informally accompanied by brief dinner speeches from our border collie heros. I would offer a training seminar for folks who are curious about herding, let them bring their dogs and get a chance to see how the dogs responded to stock. On the day before the trial I would offer a series of seminars and open committee meetings for breeders and experienced handlers to get together with club officals and judges and discuss whatever needed discussing.... Well, see how easy it is? ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britta Posted September 2, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 See the thing i don't get is why a B-Registry would be 'punitive'. In my mind those B-registered dogs could do AKC sports without having any effect on future working stock. Maybe rather than make it sound like a secondary registry it could be called 'Sport-Registry'. In the UK even mixed breeds can register with the Kennel Club for competitions, no photos or else required just name of owner & dog, the fee is minimal... As mentioned, if a dog is really good at herding it can move up to A-Registry. I just feel that it would help to show what people are breeding for. As for farm/ranch dogs, as long as they don't mix with AKC breeds wouldn't they stay A-registered anyway? If so the only thing 'punitive' would be that people couldn't mix ABCA & AKC. The tests to move into an A registry should be hard, but i can see that it could be very hard to set the rules/standards for testing. In the long run the ABCA will be THE ONLY working BC in America that way... The practicalities of enforcing any such rules must be very hard though... Britta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Britta, I should state for the record that my support of the future ban on dual registry is not because it will ruffle the fewest feathers, it's because it's fair. Even though I read the ABCA bylaws as they stand right now as prohibiting the registration of offspring of dual-registered dogs, there is nothing that prohibits dual registration. And many people disagree with my reading or find it impossible to enforce. If we were to suddenly start enforcing a ban on dual registration retroactiely, those who have relied on a lax interpretation of the rules in the past would have every right to cry foul. I don't want there to be any room for misunderstanding; I don't want anyone to claim that the ABCA did them dirty. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Again I wish for a broader area of concern. Intellectually, on prinicple, just because I generally dislike fencesitters and those who play both ends against the middle... I could go with plan x, the one where S-- B---- and her ilk are given light jail sentences and fined heavily for owning a border collie. I was completely satisfied with the JRTCA's outright, total rejection of anything that carried even a whiff of hair spray and pissed on ring gating. You would do yourselves a lot of good if you passed an initiative that had everyone's ideas pinned on papers and then had the chair of the dual registration comittee throw a dart. It would spare a lot of nasty arguing, and the arguments about this rule will be almost as divisive as the inevitable subversion of it after it is passed. "Fair" has almost nothing to do with saving a working breed Fosher. Did you see that riders on a dual registration rule are being suggested? One is your favorite: hip certification! See how quickly this rule making spins out of control? Okay, I know you feel absolutely confident that won't happen. Seems to me that the focus should be on the USBCHA, why on earth are non ABCA collies allowed to run in trials? If you want to ensure your breeds' future, make it difficult to gain access to the hill without a pass go ticket from the ABCA. If that was in place, I would be far more interested in supporting a rule like plan B. As to the committee's belief that the breed is in terrible danger based on the numbers they present, I looked at those and came away unconvinced. I have sent an email to Mr. Smart, detailing my concerns. I sent it on Friday and being that it's a busy time on all fronts, I don't expect a speedy reply. So, I don't think it's fair to get into it here, yet. However, I don't think it's inappropriate to say that while there's a predatory part of me that would be happy to hand deliver termination of registration letters to owners of dual registered dogs, I can think of better ways to take care of the real business at hand. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 09-02-2002).] [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 09-02-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 >>Seems to me that the focus should be on the USBCHA, why on earth are non ABCA collies allowed to run in trials? <<< Margaret, Perhaps only 1% of dogs running at any USBCHA sancioned trials are not necessarily ABCA registered. So,we are not under any threat from the AKC registered animals beating us on that matter. Why do you think the BCSA had to resort to Grey Summit? ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Then, I don't understand the threat to the breed, Inci. So long as the influential sires and dams have come from working lines and are successful trial dogs, what difference does it make to the real breed if every other border collie in the world is dual registerd with the AKC? When I breed a litter, I breed only to the best proven workiers I can find. If a buyer bought a pup from me and managed to register it with the AKC, it would never touch my breeding stock again for more reasons than one. The owner would not have a signed pedigree until I sent it to the ABCA, a contract that stated the dog could not be registered with the AKC etc etc, but the most important reason would be that I would never touch a dog that was unproven or had unproven ancestors. I am more sure that this is true of you and Bill Gary than it is of me. And I think it is true of 99.9% of the real keepers of the breed. Inci, I hope I don't have to add "with all due respect" to all my posts to you. You know it's a given, right? ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Margaret wrote: "Seems to me that the focus should be on the USBCHA, why on earth are non ABCA collies allowed to run in trials? If you want to ensure your breeds' future, make it difficult to gain access to the hill without a pass go ticket from the ABCA." As I see it, the fact that ANY dog, no matter its registry (or breed, for that matter) can run in the USBCHA trials is one of the features of these trials that sets them apart from "doggy sports" in this increasingly non-agricultural world. Why should we or our dog need a "ticket" of any kind to "gain access to the hill"? Working sheep is the birthright of these dogs and I think anybody with the desire and motivation to step out with their dog and attempt to train it to this kind of a level has earned the right to compete in the most properly conceived environment available - USBCHA trials. Even though most of us train and trial our dogs as a hobby (a very impassioned one), still, any man or woman, whether they are a rancher, obedience trainer or computer programmer who thinks they have a dog that can do the work can pay their entry fee, step up to the post, and walk away with the prize for being "the best dog on the day" if their dog deserves it. The less politics the better. Politics do have their place in the registry. The less they manifest at the trials, the better, in my opinion. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Margaret, The open trial is open. That's the whole nature of the beast. Anyone with the entry fee and any dog, from the latest International Supreme Champion to a toy poodle can step up to the post and see where their dog's flaws lie. If we start to impose registry restrictions, we lose this very important tradition. How would unregistered dogs pass the Register on Merit test? The threat from the AKC is not on the trial field, it's in the gene pool. If they siphon off too many breeders and leave us with isolated pockets of working talent, our gene pool becomes too small to be healthy. This has happened already with the working Australian Shepherd, and probably lots of other working breeds. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 This is the way we do it, so this is the way we do it. Not one of the accepted forms of argument. But, suppose I grant you this point for the moment. I offer an open trial, the hill is availble to all comers. Sure, they can all run! Why not? How will the results be recorded? If 15 are entered and Fergus (my Jack Russell for those few who don't know by now) somehow manages to avoid being sent from the field with the other 10, how will his "accomplishment" be writ in the annals of history? Of course this is a ludicrous story. How about we turn Fergus into a blue heeler, then what? My point is that there needs to be a strong relationship between the ABCA registry and recognition within the border collie clubs of border collie performance. So long as performance in herding trials is clearly and directly linked to ABCA registered border collies then I don't care how it's accomplished. Further if that is accomplished there shouldn't be any need for more rules. I argue this from my starting point that developing positive rules and activities, ones that are available only to ABCA border collies will accomplish more than registry restrictions. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Margaret, It seems to me that you are coming from a point of view that gives much acknowledgement to the concept of the "purebred dog." The border collie is supposed to be defined by its work. If it can do the work (which it has in its genes to do) then it qualifies as a "working sheep dog" no matter what people in "the sport of purebred dogs" would call it. "If 15 are entered and Fergus (my Jack Russell for those few who don't know by now) somehow manages to avoid being sent from the field with the other 10, how will his "accomplishment" be writ in the annals of history?" Like this: 1 Margaret Wheeler Furgus 108 Sometimes if a non border collie places in a trial, its breed will be noted in parenthesis when the results are published, just as a matter of interest, like: 1 Margaret Wheeler Furgus (JRT) 108 "This is the way we do it, so this is the way we do it. Not one of the accepted forms of argument." Though it may not be an acceptable form of argument, it is a very acceptable way to maintain a tradition. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Oh, I missed an important point. I really, really doubt that you have lost or will lose any breeders of consequence to the AKC. We all occasionally wobble on the fine edge of good behavior. This is especially true when life throws us some tough curves. As you are probably discovering with this first litter of yours Bill, breeding is by and large a thankless, expensive business. Dedicated breeders, the ones who really achieve their goals would never intentionally have any dealings that would negatively impact the breed. The breed is the only thing that gets us out of bed in the morning. Further, we rarely make mistakes. We obsess on every detail of our puppies. But, when we blow it or weaken for a moment and there is always some shithead looking to get their licks in. Then we are easy game unless our friends watch our back. As for the other sort, well to them I say, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!" ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E.S Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Margaret: "I would ask regional agility and fly ball groups to hold events in the same area at the same time so that dog sports people could get together at the same time herding people did." Better make it a big enough facility that the flyball/agility people are nowhere near the trials people or you will have a lot of complaints about the barking. Barking dogs aren't very welcome near a trial in progress. JES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Laura, Where did this tradition come from? How did it come to be? Did Moses bring it down from the mount in the hip pocket of his robe? I acknowledge the importance of tradition, but sometimes tradition can stand while policies are tweaked. And Laura, please don't try to paint me with the purebred dog enthusiast brush. Short and sweet. It ain't true of me. Furthermore I view any suggestion that I am a pure bred dog freak as an insult. The jack russell is a motley mix of every kind of farm dog imaginable. Despite this, we currently, we register it just as you do in the ABCA. But, maybe I'm making assumptions about you that I shouldn't. Maybe you don't register with the ABCA. If this is true, I apologize. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Torre Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Even if there is an attitude of "This is just the way we do it." in USBCHA Open competition (which I think is too simple a characterization), I am sure that there are many, many people who, like me, really love the idea that Open class defines the very best stockdogs since there are absolutely no barriers to entering Open. I hope that never changes. I'm off to Meeker tomorrow. Life is good. charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 JES, yes! The quiet of the trial I went to was the most blessed gift after the horrendous cacaphony of jack russell trials. OMG! We are loud people with loud dogs. And...thanks for reading my utopian fantasy! ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Charlie, Have fun at Meeker! Knock em dead. Have loads of fun for me too ok? When you get back you'll have to tell me about the many, many non ABCA dogs you see there and how your weekend steeped in tradition would have been ruined if only ABCA border collies were present. [EDIT] I'm not being a smart aleck either. I believe that there should be a good way to link the registry and trails without damaging tradition or modern American trialing. How to do it is details and as we all know the devil is in the details. I imagine Meeker is a classic example of the melting pot of stock dogs and would be a perfect point of discussion I imagine. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 09-02-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Torre Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Thanks Margaret, I think. C'mon, tell me how you really feel. I agree that virtually all the dogs there will be ABCA, etc. But I wasn't trying to suggest that the lack of requirement of ABCA registration is responsible for the astronomical level of performance that one sees at trials like this. Only that there is a very strong appeal (to me - admittedly an unknown, beginning handler/trainer in the middle of Nowhere) in having a set of tests that truly select the best dogs from all comers. Period. If the trials are to remain primarily a tool for development of the dogs (rather than just another $#&*$#$& way for people to win prizes) I think the "Open" nature of the competition is crucial, philosophically speaking. Ok. Let's stop this deep thinking now. My brain hurts. charlie [This message has been edited by Charles Torre (edited 09-02-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Me too, Charles. Margaret, I didn't mean to imply that you are a "purebred dog freak" or to insult you, but simply to say that to approach a dog as being defined by its working abilities is inherently different than if it is defined by its registry. Let's just keep the trial field as simple and uncluttered as possible by all these politics; that's where I'm coming from. Where policies have a VALID PLACE is in establishing and verifying sanctioning standards at the trials, and this is a big and difficult enough job, fraught with disagreement. But let the dogs stand for themselves. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Laura, Thanks and sorry about my snide attitude. Tis a tough nut to crack, but American* optimism, hard work and cooperation may yet win the day. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net *Canadian, Scots, Welsh, British.....NZ, OZ.... [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 09-02-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Maragaret, The open trial tradition comes from the UK, along with the dogs. On the sheepdog list, there was recently a thread about the fact that Maddie (ISDS 3) was probably a Bearded Collie, and can be found in many Border collie pedigrees, including that of Wiston Cap, perhaps the greatest Border collie that has ever lived. To some, this means that all Border collies are crossbred dogs. I disagree with that. A breed is what its breeders say it is -- but that is neither here nor there. While the ISDS has become a registry for what we call Border collies, it is, in fact, the International Sheep Dog Society. An open trial is a place to find great dogs, to polish good ones, and to relegate the mediocre ones to the second tier of the gene pool. It is a set of tasks so incredibly difficult that few dogs ever complete it. I doubt that there are more than a couple of thousand dogs running in Open trials in the US, out of what, probably 70,000 ABCA-registered Border collies alive right now. But the point is that it is a sheep dog trial, not a trial of ABCA registered Border collies. If there's a dog out there that can do it better, I want to know about it. Perhaps my argument isn't so much "we do it this way because this is the way we've always done it," as "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The open trial is what shaped the sheepdogs of today. It got us where we are, and limiting its participants to those dogs that have a particular piece of paper won't do us any good getting to where we need to go next. Perhaps I don't fully understand what goal you think it would accomplish. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted September 2, 2002 Report Share Posted September 2, 2002 Any dog, any handler, can step to the post in Open. It doesn't matter if you were "born to the hill"...or grew up in inner city Detroit. It doesn't matter if the dog's pedigree includes nothing but International Winners...or it doesn't have a pedigree. What matters is, quite simply, "the work". An amorphous thing, best defined, and probably ONLY defined, by those who do it... I wouldn't want to run in a trial that limited dogs to a certain breed or registry...that would also limit "the work"... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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