Mary & Dogs Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Probably everyone has seen the horrifying tapes on the news. The one of the dogs getting gassed. I don't know exactly why but seeing dogs treated this way absolutely turns my stomach - makes me physically ill. Probably because they are so trusting and have absolutely no clue. The day before they had rebels in Zimbawe killing dogs with a machete on a white farmers land - just because they were there. I don't understand what went wrong in the human hard wiring. All other species of animals just kind of live their lives. Even the animals that live in social groups don't come close to us in our ability to be completely savage. When animals are vicious they can strike with incredible speed but they are just doing what they are programmed to do. I have never seen anything in my animals that makes me think they have any concept of guilt. Animals can reason - I see that all of the time. But I'm not sure that they can think logically like we can - One step at a time and then build on it. Nor do they rationalize. Both of those things seems to have been our weakness. Logic is fine - until you take a wrong step somewhere along the way and end up with a completely wrong conclusion. And the things that people seem to be able to rationalize constantly amazes me. Kill 4000 Kurds and rationalize it away because maybe they were a threat. And when did we become so savage? Leave people to their own devices and they are capable of absolutely incredible atrocities. Is it because the human animal is so pitiful when compared to other animals. We can't see very well, we can't hear very well, we certainly can't run very fast, and we don't even have fur to keep us warm. No teeth or claws for protection. The only way we could compete was to form structures that protected us from the natural world and beat everyone else out with our savagery. White's theory of concentric circles? Some times I feel it in myself. When I am too tired and things begin to go wrong I can feel this awful dark rage sufacing. I don't act on it. I start to take deep breaths but I am very aware of what I could do when I am that angry. I never carry a gun. Societal rules help to keep things in check - but we still have all kinds of problems even with all the laws. No wonder things get so out of control in countries were the rule of law has broken down. Or where a "madman" rules. And where did we ever come up with the idea that we, one animal species, have the right to do whatever the hell we feel like to all other species on this planet? I'm just really upset. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Mary, Not to upset you even more, but do you realize that many shelters use gas as a means of euthanizing stray dogs and cats? It's perfectly acceptable here in NC, and I could relate some horror stories to you, but stuff like that upsets me so much that I'll not do that to someone else. It may not be quite the same as the poison gas testing you saw, but still many, many animals are being gassed daily right here in the United States. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn Bailey Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Hi Mary, I did not see the tapes, chose not to. I agree with you about the human race, it is very depressing and sad to dwell upon. I feel it all comes down to lack of education. What else can it be? I try to do the best I can every day, be kind, take care of mine, help others. It might not always work, but it is all I can do. After all I am only a human. take care of yourself today! Dawn Bailey Eatonville, WA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted August 21, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Thanks you guys. I don't think education helps a whole lot - educated people just learn to do dispicable things wrapped in more acceptable packages. I have to be careful here because I can get so overwhelmed that I can't move in any direction. Good versus evil - only in the human spere. I just don't get how some people can be so good - and thoughtful - and go so far out of their way to do the right thing. And others are monsters. And its not all environment. Its not religion. Religious people are often the best rationalizers of all. There are a lot days that I am really embarrassed to be "human". Animals are really much "higher" creatures. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Those tapes made me sick too, and if I had no use for those people before, I have even less now. Another image that sticks in my mind is the execution of a woman in the arena in Kabul. I just heard that the Wall Street Journal Reporter Daniel Pearl (? sp) was executed by getting his throat sliced while making a statement to the camera. How about the degenerate who shot out the lion's eye in the Kabul zoo because the lion messed up his kin? Kind of satisfying that the lion in this case had the last laugh---sent the SOB off to Allah (where instead of the 72 virgins promised to "men", hopefully he had a bunch of hormonal & armed feminists waiting---another great visual!) When we see examples of man's inhumanity to man, why would a mere dog be exempt? Let me be a little inhumane to say I prefer a visual of one of those barbarians instead, in a cage as the gas was let loose. Also, just think, throughout history and those of us who ever attended Sunday school, "dog" is a derogatory term in that part of the world, in Judeo-Christian & Islamic cultures. To call the degenerates who perpetrate these horrible acts on the defenseless, "animals", would be an insult to any four legged beast who ever walked the earth. I once read, and firmly believe, that of all the animals, the dog is the only one who is with us by choice. A more honest animal you'll never meet (man included). That trust, man has betrayed. It breaks my heart. Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted August 21, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Vicki: Thank you for that rant. It helped. I feel the same way about anyone who commits these crimes. I just don't know what to do with the anger. I am not sure why the dogs thing is always the thing that gets to me. But it does every time. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajarrel Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 I've been thinking about how (and if)to respond to your post, Mary, because although I didn't see the tape you refer to because we don't have a TV, I did hear it described on NPR and was upset. I think television has made these incidents and the people who perpetrate them seem more prevelant than they are - your message caused me to think about my neighbors and friends, and the people I've dealt with over the last couple weeks or so, and even the people we've met in our travels to 20 or more countries throughout the world, and the majority of them are *good* people. People on the whole are no worse than animals - heck, just go into the barnyard or woods and you'll see that animals are some of the cruelest creatures around, by human standards. Have heart - truly evil people are a small part of humanity. The best way to fight back is by doing good . . . Kim ------------------ Black Dog Farm http://www.blackdogfarm.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandiefurniss Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Hi Mary, when the footage of the dog was about to be played on the 6pm news here in Australia, my husband told me not to come into the room because it was nearly on. I then heard my big 6ft 4 inches of a husband start to rant and rave and saying he wishes he was still in the Army. This battle with the terriosts,is in my opioion going to be a long one and it frightens the hell out of me, even though I am in Australia(and what our pollies think is a relatively safe place...) I go to work and help out at the refuge with all my heart and mind and it does comfort me to know that for every bad person there is a good kind person out there. I agree with you Vicki when you said"that of all the animals the dog is the only one who is with us by choice.A more honest animal you'll never meet(man included).That trust,man has betrayed. It breaks my heart. Mandie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted August 21, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Have you ever noticed that they never ask women how to end the war? We would just say "stop shooting." It seems like a no brainer. If everyone stands down there won't be a war. Then put everyone in a big room and don't let them out until they have reached an agreement. But really, the terrorist mentality is something like 13th century thinking. That is the reason that we have so much trouble understanding it. If you listen to those guys they are talking about dreams and portents. It gets really wierd. And it seems like nonsense. But if your real goal is to get to be a big deal, world personality then I guess it would make sense in a really perverse way. I kind of doubt that their real goal is to make the world Islamic. The same thing is going on in Zimbawe where the ruler is another egomaniac with a lot of thugs helping him terrorize everyone. And the danger there is that the few black rhinos left in the wild won't survive. Everyone is starving because all of the white farmers have been forced out and no one else has the knowledge or the means to work the farms. The rhinos and elephants that are left will be poached for food. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn Bailey Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Hi Mary, I always assume education means empathy. you are right, education can be a creative way to destroy. bummer Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandiefurniss Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 What I can't understand about all of this is alot of wars today and throughout history have been about regilion and land. Well with the religion aspect, how can these people say they are doing the right thing, when God(what ever form he/she takes)is suppose to be all forgiving and loving, and these freaks(that is what I call them)think that killing people and then killing themselves will grant them everlasting life, in the afterlife. What a load of rubbish, as far as I am concerned it is another pathetic excuse for war and hate. With the fighting over land, in some ways it reminds me of my 3 kids, who fight over the last lolly or he/she got a better toy ect ect. I agree with Mary, if women ran this world instead of the stuffed up men we have that are our "leaders" the world would be a lot nicer place(God forbid, if we had PMS at the same time though). Our Prime Minster here in Australia, John Howard, as far as I am concerned is the BIGGEST twit that has "run" our country. The medical system, the education system and the farmers have all suffered since this man came into "power". All in all, I can't see how the world is going to change, while we have all this upheavel going on. I don't know of any country in this world that isn't "fighting" with some other country and region from their country. Like I say to my eldest son sometimes, stop acting like a baby and get your act together. Mandie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted August 22, 2002 Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 Here's what I don't get. I have to admit that I haven't seen these tapes, but there has been quite a stir about whether they should have been aired. I don't know how many dogs were involved -- one or two? I have long felt that I was the voice in the wilderness as I shrieked that I did not want to watch the planes hit the towers, people leaping to their deaths, or the buildings collapse one more time. Yet these visuals are replayed over and over again, and I'm sure that as the anniversary of this attack approaches we'll all get to see them one hundred more times. Was I the only one who realized, when those towers came down, that we were watching, live on TV, and later played back over and over again, the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of people? Why has there been no flap about that, and why do we hear so much about how the networks shouldn't show us pictures of dogs being gassed? I don't want to see either, but if I had to choose between watching a dog or two die and watching thousands of innocent lives be snuffed out (again, for the hundredth time) I would pick the tape of the dogs, I'm sorry to say. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH [This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 08-22-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandiefurniss Posted August 22, 2002 Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 Bill, I do agree with you, in what you are saying. I was sickened to the stomach and heart with the terror that happened on the 11/10. My sons school on that day talked to the kids about what had happened and if they needed to talk about it and how they felt and they sent a news letter home that afternoon telling us parents what to expect in the kids in the forth coming weeks/months.Craig and myself had the T.V on most of that day, but when Matt came home from school, the videos came out. The news was turned back on when the kids where in bed. I can't see how replaying the towers crashings and the planes hitting them is going to help the victims families or society in general.I for one would HATE seeing the building my husband/mother/father/brother or friend was in being destroyed and having to see it day in and day out for weeks. This is a sick world sometimes(too often lately)and it scares the Christ out of me, when I think of my kids and what will/might happen in the future. Mandie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted August 22, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 I wish the media wouldn't put some of the stuff on the air. And play it over and over again. I don't care if it is people or dogs or battered children. I don't know about everyone else but I think I am starting to get really depressed. I know that my anxiety level is way up there. I just wish the media and the government would give people a chance to calm down again. And all of this talk about invading Iraq is not helping. Bush starts all of these rumors and inuendo. And then he and Rumsfield have the nerve to stand outside at the Texas ranch and say they don't understand where all of the frenzy is coming from. Damn the Hawks to Hell. All of them. Whether they be Osama Bin Laden or George Bush or Donald Rumsfield or the president of Pakistan. What a bunch of ego maniacs. And the woman and children and the men who see through it all and all of the animals on this earth are left to try and deal with it. Well, that felt good. Dawn: Education does help. And certainly being educated in an open democracy helps a whole lot. And I know there are a lot of good people out there. Everytime something awful hits the news here in Kansas City thousands of people respond - whether its a child that needs help or a dog that was abused. God bless em all. Got to go to work. I do real estate mortgages and we are swamped with refinances. Rates will probably start going up pretty soon so if you can refinance get out there and do it. Have a good day - a peaceful day. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Cent Livestock Posted August 22, 2002 Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 The media doesn't care. The media is out to shock you and to fire our emotions up. They are pretty happy to show dogs dying, becuase of the shockvalue of something we value as cute suffering. What they need to show is the Daniel Pearl tape (which I have seen). They need to show the bodies of the Kurds that Saddam had killed to test chemical warfare. They need to show the American people what those people think of us and civilization. A dog is nothing to them... a human being rates similarly. I hate what the media stands for... and came to the conclusion long ago that whatever you see on the networks is likely false or biased to the point of being valueless. ------------------ Kristine D. Slayer of the Cheatgrass, Princess of the Sage Chicken, Bureacratic Handmaiden. EAT BEEF - The West Wasn't Won on a Salad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hastyreply Posted August 22, 2002 Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 Not in anyway to defend the "dog tapes". I thought it was very disgusting. BUT in many parts of the world the everyday struggle to just survive is so hard that compassion for animals is way down the list of prioities. I know that I personally can't do more than try to imagine what life in many many countries would be like for me if I had been born there. I think their mindset is SO far from ours that they couldn't begin to imagine that we would be outraged by such behavior. As privledged americans we shouldn't always try to put our value system on people whose daily lives are so focused on just surviving one day to the next. The media really focused in on that tape. From what I saw there were many more tapes found but these are the ones that were relased to the press so we would be aggitated. "They" are using the press to manipulate the public to better except our foreign policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted August 22, 2002 Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 I think we all agree that the media sensationalizes. They also show what they want to show to manipulate public opinion. But the visual of 9/11 on 9/11 was not manipulation. It was horrifying reality that's been burned in our minds. I think the reason it was played over and over at the beginning is because people had a difficult time processing what happened. Now that it has sunk in, it's not being played as much----but maybe we need to see it occasionally again in case we become too complacent. It's easy for us as Americans to do so. I think that the "Osama tapes", showing the dogs (and I've heard in prior reports evidence of nerve gas testing was found when many bodies of animals---mostly dogs---were found strewn about the area where Al-Quaida had been), while a lot of other atrocities were committed on humans, is indicative of a particular mindset---that it's acceptable to use a defenseless being (read that as dog, child, woman, etc.)to achieve a goal. It's justified by the more educated to the less educated that it's done in the name of Allah---and how can an uneducated dirt bag not believe that he has greater glories waiting for him on the other side if he only does ???? in the name of Allah. Sliver groups, factions & sects have been doing this for centuries. I believe that there are some Christian sects that would still be burning people at the stake if it were still legal. Man has manipulated something that's supposed to be pure to suit his own purposes and it's always the defenseless, the ones with no voice, who pay the price. The problem with this now is even greater. When you combine a medieval mentality with 21st century technology--weapons, the destruction which can come about can be unfathomable------and 9/11 was unfathomable. Should women be the peacemakers? Nice thought, but I know of some women pissed off enough to go kick some butt over there themselves. I know I am. On 9/11, for over 4 hours, I didn't know if my daughter, who lives & works in lower Manhattan, by the WTC, was alive or dead. Those 4 hours of not knowing had an impact on me as well. Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted August 22, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 I know that I am angry. But I am a peacemaker just by nature. But sometimes we are the very worst. I seem so laid back but when someone finally pushes me far enough to fight - Katie bar the door. But the truth is that I absolutely hate those Arab guys. I don't feel that way toward the women. When I was in college in Salt Lake City there were a lot of Arab foreign students and they were just awful to women. If you spoke they would not interrupt but would then go on with their conversation as though you were not there. Then, my best friend had a boyfriend from Egypt. And he was a wonderful person - and practiced Islam. But he made it very clear that Egyptians were not Arabs. However, I don't think that conditions in Egypt are a whole lot better for women than they are in any Arab country. Let's face it. Those guys hate women and dogs (which are considered unclean) and those both are issues which are dear to my heart - so I don't think I will go visit. I can't begin to comprehend how those guys think. I just can't. It seems so irrational to me. I would think it was obvious to anyone who could think a lick that their reasoning is a whole lot flawed. But then, I have spent most of my life living where religion was a big deal - first in Salt Lake City and then here in the Bible Belt. So I question everything. I have seen what too much religion can do and how badly it can scar people. And how crazy it can become. Too many people of the same religion in the same area is a dangerous thing. I just wish there were some answers. I have the feeling that this situation with the radical muslims will go on forever. And I'm already sick to death of it. I guess we will learn to deal with it on a daily basis just like we have learned to deal with all the other stuff. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted August 22, 2002 Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 Hmm,wasn't one of the (9/11) luney tune,suicidal maniac flyer from Egypt? Mary, Egyptian are as Arabs as they come and they are equally filled with hatred as Yemenis,Saudis or anyone else in that part of the world against Western society. Most blame poverty,non-educated public, etc. Saudis have plenty wealth and do offer education for free to her citizens,unfortunately their idea of education is a religious schools where they feed them spoon by spoon to hate anything outside of their Koran and their Allah. I'd say,pack up all the Arab nations manfolk and send them to Hare Krishna's. With their non indiviual mentality coupled with their passion for belonging to any group,perhaps they could be turned into "airport chanting pests with togas and flowers". As for their women (Arab),they do give birth to those sons,you know...they are not above their manfolks. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandiefurniss Posted August 22, 2002 Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 I have just read through this post, and came to my last one and I said 11/10(in australia we put the day before the month)and feel like I real idiot. I meant the 9th month. It was 10.30 pm when I wrote it and I was so damn tired. Sorry guys. Mandie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted August 23, 2002 Report Share Posted August 23, 2002 Hi Mary - how are you getting on with your diabetic kitty-cat? Yes - there are terrible people in the world doing terrible things to other creatures - people and animals - and the media here in Oz love showing that, in many cases over and over. But what they don?t like to show, sadly are the many examples of ordinary people doing good things - no shock value there. From your posts that I?ve read, I?d say that you?re one of those good people that Kim was talking about in her very wise post. I do pets as therapy visits with my BCs in a palliative care unit, and there?s nothing like that for restoring perspective, and faith in human nature. In four years I have met so many wonderful, brave people who in the middle of facing their own coming death have love and empathy to spare for others. I just heard an item on the radio news about drought and famine in Malawi in Africa. The parents are sending their children to school because that is the only place they can get a meal. In one town there were 1000 children in a school with 6 teachers - 417 children in one first grade class. Many of the children are orphans because their parents have died of AIDS - and yet they are still trying to get an education. How humbling is that? As a teacher I have to believe that education is part of the solution, although education in the family is vital as well. I have just finished some work with my tenth grade class on the Holocaust - and I have to say they were most thoughtful about the issues raised. And then there was the kindergarten class when I was trying to explain the word?war? which had cropped up in a story I was reading them. One of the children said it was ?people killing other people? and one of the other children said ?Why do they do that?? Good question! Never mind putting women in charge - maybe we should put kindergarten kids in charge - you?ve got to think they couldn?t do a much worse job. Think globally - act locally - and love your animals and let them comfort you, Mary. Take care of yourself. Barb [This message has been edited by Tassie (edited 08-23-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted August 23, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2002 Thanks for asking. Kitty is doing better. I think I am getting on to giving shots - had to learn to use just one hand. That is a lot faster and a lot less painful for her. Prissy is starting to act like her old self - she has been jumping up on the bed and playing with Ellie. Ellie puts her nose under the cat and tries to roll her all over the bed. They are so funny. Prissy has to go back to the vet Monday and stay all day. They do blood checks every two hours to see how her insulin is working and see if it needs to be adjusted. Cats sometimes get better and don't need their insulin for a while. The important thing is that she should be able to live a normal life now. I have her mother - who just showed up one day - and the three daughters. I got the kittens when they were about 3 weeks old. The mother cat brought them to me. Course I never managed to find homes so they all live in the house with me and the dogs. But the cats are kind of their own social group. They interact way more with each other than they do with me or the dogs. And they are so cute. Put a box down somewhere and all four will pile in and go to sleep. There is nothing that knows how to sleep better than a cat. Funny how animals can keep your life somewhat normal. No matter what is going on in the world I can go home and the animals are always the same. Our routine is always the same. And they always keep me going. I know that I can't get too depressed or incapacitated. I have to be there and functioning. And that has been a very good thing for me. Thanks for caring - and for asking. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted August 23, 2002 Report Share Posted August 23, 2002 That's good news Mary. It must feel good to know that you're able to help Prissy have a more or less normal life. You're so right about cats sleeping. They sure are experts - and at finding the nice sheltered sunny spots in a late winter garden - the best sunny spot inside. One of mine was sound asleep on a chair when I left to take the pups to their nursing home visit this morning, and still sound asleep three hours later - woke up briefly when she was enthusiastically greeted by the puppies, then back to sleep again. Don't you love the interaction between pet dogs and cats - my cats have got the pups reasonably well organized,although they do try to time their movements for when the pups are out or sleeping - pups respect a stationary cat, but a moving one 'obviously' wants to play! Take care - love to the animals. ------------------ Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntley's Mom Posted August 25, 2002 Report Share Posted August 25, 2002 Is it just me? Or does it seem that animal suffering made public seems to hit a nerve with people quicker than when it is human suffering? Is it too surreal to believe when it is human, and more believable when it is dogs, cats, elephants, etal? The towers collapsing was hard for me to get my mind around, it took me a long time for the reality to sink in. In Pensacola this past week, we had a German Shepherd (Alsatian-I love that! I am reading Man Meets Dog by Konrad Lorenz, the Nobel Laureate in Animal Behavior) set on fire, and the response was quick, forceful, and positive in the community. Money and help poured in immediately. Literally hundreds of offers to adopt him, and thousands of dollars raised in a matter of days. Now I know the efforts made at the towers. I am not comparing that at all, but rather the initial gut reaction when events happen. It is mind-boggling either way, but I think maybe our self-preservation defenses kick in when the horror is of the magnitude of 9/11. We just don't want to believe it, and it takes a while to face it. I have heard many folks discussing the gassing of the dogs with such vehemence. It is a horror, but no more than the loss of human lives so wantonly carried out by madmen. It is ALL mad. My point? Maybe the images of the dogs will strike a cord with some that might not otherwise take notice. Maybe the reality is more "real" now for some. Maybe it is one more reminder for us with short memories that it is almost a year since this nightmare began for the USA. It isn't over, it won't be over for quite a while, and life will never be the same for us. I am hopeful for peace, but not very optimistic. Sincerely, Patti Jo ------------------ quote: Patti & Wayne McAhren 2264 Fairway Drive Mobile, AL 36606 USA (251) 479-1777 (H) Master Printing Company (251) 476-6979 (W) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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