BC compared to other dogs?

[bob d]

Just wondering:

 

I've had a dog, or two, my whole life (I'm 53 now) - and my dogs have always been considered to be well trained, well behaved, and 'smart' - I think this is because I have always taken the time to do a reasonably amount of training, so they fit into my world well.

 

Our BC is about 2 and a half - and I have given him the attention he needs I think. The result is a dog that is incredibly smart and well trained (even if I say so), and I think it is simply because that is the BC way. I so often have even BC people mention this (saying to me "he's so smart..") - that it makes me wonder:

 

Is my experience uncommon - that my first (only) BC is an order of magnitude smarter than any other dog I've had? Do most folks with BCs, that have had other breeds before, find there BCs to be just a bit more 'everything' (smarter, energetic, etc) - or do other find their BC to be a whole new level of 'smart'?

 

Unlike every other dog I've ever had, this one continue to learn new 'things' all the time - and the number of 'tricks / things' he knows - absolutely stunning. But I take it for granted, until someone comments - and I am taking him out with me more these days than ever before, so I'm hearing comments all the time.

 

Oh - should explain - I'm not trying to suggest Sparc is brilliant, or I am anything special as a trainer - I know the reason Sparc is this way is that

1) - he is a BC, and

- because of medical realities for me, I have spent a tremendous amount of time with him, and

iii) - I have enjoyed giving him new challenges, which results (after a couple of years) in A LOT of things learned.

 

I really do believe he is just a 'regular' well exercised (mentally and physically) BC - great dog, great breed.

 

Cheers,

Bob

[Odin's Momma]

Bob, I wonder the very same thing!

 

Odin is the first dog that I owned that was fully mine. Growing up we always had dogs, but they didn't do much more than sit or fetch.

 

With Odin I feel like the possibilities are endless.

 

You know that saying "if you build it, they will come"?

 

With Odin I think it's more like "If you teach it, it will learn". Sometimes I get frustrated because he has so much potential and 'm not sure if I can live up to that, training-wise.

 

Are BCs just on a whole nother level of intelligence? Or are we just biased?

[BustopherJones]

Bob, I see a lot of myself in what you are describing. Shadow is my first Border Collie, after a LONG lifetime (I won't say how old I am, but I was a waiter at the Last Supper) of owning many dogs, both purebreeds and eclectics (a politically correct term for "mutts"). Shadow is now almost 2 years old, and what amazes me is not only how well she learns what she is taught, but also the tricks she learns on her own. A recent example occurred when I was refereeing a Special Olympics soccer game, and DW brought Shadow to the field to watch; without any coaching, Shadow ran onto the field and began playing soccer with her paws and nose, much to the delight of the Special Olympians. (Unfortunately, I had to penalize her for "handball" when she used her paws...) The only aspect of her behavior to which I have had difficulty in adapting is her hyeractivity; she is the true definition of a perpetual motion machine, in that she goes non-stop from morning to night witout ever resting during the day. Of course, keeping up with her has had a signficiant side benefit. At my age, I might have been tempted to relax and become sedentary; but the activity has improved my health, and I feel better today that I did 15 or 20 years ago.

 

Yes, my BC is definitely different as compared to any dog I have ever had before...

[Tammy525]

Scout is a lab/BC mix, and it is like he has a lab personality and a BC personality. He is a couch potato lab until he is asked to do something. Then he turns into an instant BC willing to do anything that is asked. When you want him to do something he doesn't understand, he will cock his head at you, like, "could you try again, this time make more sense?" I think he could learn anything, he is the best, brightest, most wonderful dog we have ever had.

[AfterThought]

Right now I have 2 dogs, a BC and a Malamute. And I don't necessarily think that my BC is way smarter than my Mal, just that she learns faster and is more bidding. For example, when I taught the dogs how to stand on a stool and walk around it with just their back feet, my BC got it in <5 tries. My Mal took significantly longer. 2 days I think?. Also, both my dogs compete in agility. Sure my Mal is not as fast and driven as my BC, but he is still very accurate and reliable and Q's on occasion. I guess I'm saying that both my dogs can achieve the same end results but my BC can definitely do it in a shorter time. In my eyes, that doesn't make my Mal any less smarter than my BC. Just slower I'm biased. I have a soft spot for my sucky baby boy The downside for me is that BCs are so full of energy and need constant activities to excercise their minds. My friends actually call my BC "the dog with ADD". My Mal on the other hand, just wants to sleep all day. LOL.

[Odin's Momma]

The downside for me is that BCs are so full of energy and need constant activities to excercise their minds. My friends actually call my BC "the dog with ADD". My Mal on the other hand, just wants to sleep all day.

Lucky for me, Odin doesn't have a normal BC's level of energy. Not while indoors, anyway.

 

Outside, he loves to run and romp, but inside he just lays aroud. I'm not sure what breed his dad was, but there has to be some lazy genes in there somewhere.

 

I still wish I knew what he was mixed with, if anything. I'm leaning towards yes because of his laziness, but I dunno.

[Caroline]

Hey Bob,

I have found all you said to be accurate for me, in having Charlie. He knows how to learn, he learned things have names. He thinks for himself, well now he is 14 but he does think. I was training Luke to pick up pencils for William and Charlie horned in because he remembered doing it and started picking up all sorts of things. We saw some service dogs picking up credit cards of hardwood so I decided to see how long it would take to train that for Charlie and Luke. They almost have it in two sessions.

Caroline

[border_collie_crazy]

I have 2 BCs, 1 pyrshep, 1 JRT mix?, and 1 mutt. intellgence varys in my house lol

 

Happy(BC)-easily the smartest dog I have ever known, she does not enjoy training, but she doesnt need to, because when people ask me how I tought her to do anything, my answer is simple..I didn't. if I ask her to do something, she will do it, who cares if she has never heard the word before, she still does it right the first time, I dont know how she knows these things, she just does, and because of it everyone thinks she is the greatest thing on four legs.

 

Misty(BC)-she lives to learn new things, but I cant say she is the smartest creature ever lol certanly smarter then your average dog, there is no doubt about that, she picks up on things really fast, but I think its more because she is so eager to learn, she does not hold a candle to Happy. I remeber when my friend was having fun clicker training Misty to do goofy things, she wanted to clicker misty to go to the other side of the room and touch a bottle with her paw, it took a while, but she got it eventually, cmpared to an average dog it took no time at all, but for a BC... lol then she wanted to teach Happy the same thing, I told here there was no need, I said "Happy go touch that bottle" so she walked to the other side of the room and touched the bottle.

 

Perky(JRT mix?)- competes with Happy for the title of smartest dog easy. my mom had a strongly scented lip gloss in her purse, Perky thought it smelled good, so she grabed the zipper opened the purse, found the lip gloss and ate it. my dad left cheese on top of the desk and moved the chair to the other side of the room, Perky pushed the chair to the desk, climbed up and ate the cheese.

 

Ripley(mutt)-he used to be a total moron but apperntly training improved brain power lol the other 3 are smarter no question, but Ripley is still pretty bright..we are still trying to figer out how the heck he knows agilty, we never tought him, we wanted to but he had a hard enugh time just figering out that flyball was the same sport no matter where it takes place lol but my mom brought him to a class for fun one day and he immedietly started running the caurse like he has been doing it his whole life!

 

Blair(pyrshep)-complete and utter moron. I dont think you will ever meet a dumber dog. Blair has perfectly normal sight. when we cleaned the house Blair apperntly got confused, we told him to kennel so he continually rammed his head into the back of his crate trying to find the door. he gets so exited when he gets a toy from another dog, once thhe initial exitment of having a toy passes, he has no clue what the heck he is supposed to DO with it.my mom tried getting him to run along side the van on her way to work(she works at a tractor salvage on a farm) if my mom paused between saying his name for 2 seconds poor Blair got lost, its funny how stupid he is lol

[Odin's Momma]

Originally posted by border_collie_crazy:

Blair(pyrshep)-complete and utter moron. I dont think you will ever meet a dumber dog. Blair has perfectly normal sight. when we cleaned the house Blair apperntly got confused, we told him to kennel so he continually rammed his head into the back of his crate trying to find the door. he gets so exited when he gets a toy from another dog, once thhe initial exitment of having a toy passes, he has no clue what the heck he is supposed to DO with it.my mom tried getting him to run along side the van on her way to work(she works at a tractor salvage on a farm) if my mom paused between saying his name for 2 seconds poor Blair got lost, its funny how stupid he is lol

LMAO!! Oh wow, that's funny!

[Dixie_Girl]

I can't count how many dogs I have owned. I have trained all of them to different degrees. Bandit was so smart. Anything I wanted to teach him, he learned. Then we got Cheyenne. We thought she was so smart. She has been taught many things. I believe most dogs can learn most things, given enough time. However, then we got Jackson. Oh, yeah, he learns quick when we want to teach him something. But it his figuring out things that blows me away! It is his ability to have abstract thinking! To know that sometimes in order to accomplish something, it sometimes means doing what seems, in most dogs, to be far removed from goal. We have a fenced backyard. We have a doggie door to the back. The fence is in an "L" shape around the house. So one day, I am playing ball with him out front. The front door is open. I throw the ball and it goes over the fence to the back yard. The fencing is field fencing. So at first he tries to reach it through the fence. Okay, that didn't work. He is working his mind, you can "see" it. Then he runs around to the other side of the house where the gates are. Damn, someone left them closed! So back he comes. Then he sees the front door. He looks, runs back to where the ball is, looks, then back to front door, through house, out doggie door, around the back of house, gets ball and comes back out front. Problem, think, solve! He is for sure the most awesome dog I have ever owned. Smart is not even a proper word for this breed. Thinking intelligence is more apt IMO.

[mado]

I do the same with my pup , and she thought it all in a sec ! We play around a baseball field , and a football field next to it there are fences around , openings for the public to go on the benches (this is not gonna be very well expressed ...) anyway , I decided that my arm hurt so much after throwing the ball so many times I'd throw it over the fence and let her figure . So she ran to the fence , took one yearning look at the ball , and ran to the public's entrance , a zigzagging roofed thing , raced for the ball and was back at a speed . A few minutes later she found the other entrance designed for the teams , so she chose any one that was closer to the ball , and then the one closer to me for the way back . She always calculates precisely which way she'll take and it's always the shortest !

I hope this makes sense ...

She'd explain it better but is napping just now

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

my experience with border collies is they adore you and will do anything. When I was pregnant with my kids Kirby wouldnt leave my side he needed to be sure I was ok.

He even became protective when it was warrented.

 

Dal is similar he is my shadow he will try to do anything I ask of him.

 

Jewel is smart but, she is self preserving it's all about her.

[painted_ponies]

Violet, my BC whom I've had for five weeks now, is radically different from all the other dogs I've owned, trained, or had anything to do with. I'd say an order of magnitude smarter is about right. : )

 

OH is somewhat low-energy. So Violet teaches him games he can play with her without a whole lot of effort. For example, instead of fetch they play "penalty kick," which is a game Violet made up by laying her ball in front of OH's feet and then backing up to the doorway (the goal). If OH manages to kick it past her, he wins, if she traps it (as mostly happens) she wins. Then she brings it back and they start over.

 

If OH is unwilling even to kick the ball, she plays "backstop" which involves throwing the ball at his feet and catching it in the air as it bounces back.

 

She is also very quick at figuring out what I want and making it happen. I have a cat who, when she manages to sneak into the forbidden guest room, will rocket under the bed so I can't reach her. Violet watched this the first time, stuck her head under the bedskirt, and "glared" kitty out from under the bed. :cool: She's also great at rounding up my little housedogs and keeping them at the front door so I can put their leashes on.

 

I don't know how I got along without her!

[Meg's mum]

I have never had a dog that was not a BC. My last BC before Meg at the ripe old age of 12, came to the conlusion that I was always running around looking for 'things'...my keys, shoes, little purse/wallet and hairbrush. From time to time I'd ask her where this or that was and she would eventually learn what 'that' meant and start looking for me when I asked.

 

One day autumn day, I realized that for some time all of my things were together whenever I went looking. With malice aforethought that night I put them all in different places. The following morning they were all piled on the easy chair, again.

 

After decades without GirlDog, Meg has finally begun to fill the hole. Even though she is much more willful than GirlDog, that spark, and spin, humor, and sensitivity are the same.

 

Hail, bright conduits to the divine!

[fooshuman]

I'm not trying to suggest Sparc is brilliant,

I am tho

 

All i can say about this breed is i'll never be owned by another. BC's are more then just a dog! I swear if you shaved one they'd have a big "S" on their chests

[JacknKegsDad]

I think the true mark of the BC as a breed is that they're never too old to learn new things....and most do what you ask of them straight off the bat...or in the first couple of attempts.

 

This is what gives people the impression that they're "smart"....i.e. they're quick to learn.

Beyond this, BC's seem to have an infinite capacity for commands....with many of the folks here having taught their BC a "vocabulary" of tricks that runs into the hundreds.

 

Other breeds - and this is a generalisation - can often be restricted to a dozen or two commands...and then when you teach them something new - it kinda pushes one of the old tricks out the other ear

 

Another factor - without wanting to anthropomorphise BC's - is that they seem to communicate what THEY want better to their owners.

 

This could be my bias (and the general level of obsessiveness about their pets that BC owners seem to share )....but Jack (BC) is far easier to "read" than Keg (Lab/BC cross - mainly Lab) - or more to the point...he just tells me he's feeling off-colour, wants a pat, would like to take a walk, catch the frisbee, I'm not eating THAT! etc.

 

Which leads me to the standout skill of the BC in the dog world. They teach their humans better than any other breed.

[Lunar]

Well I've never owned a purebred BC so I can't really comment personally. I know every BC I've met or seen has been so incredibly intelligent. With Oreo (who was mostly BC, but sure didn't act like it) she and I knew how to communicate. I can teach her new tricks in seconds, she picks things up from me and tries new variations until she gets it right. She really wants to please me most of all.

 

Zeeke (german shepherd, also an extremely intelligent breed) is very bright, but in a BAD way. (Yes there are bad ways.) His attitude is much more along the lines of, "Yeah, I GET what you mean, but you can't make me do it." He uses his intelligence to get into things and to manipulate his daddy and me. Garg.

[lance]

painted_ponies, Glad your enjoying Violet! Aren't Border Collies great! Seems like only yesterday that you posted she was comming for a weekend visit to see how things work out.

[Hector]

My dog Bailey is a BC/Sighthound-X. From what I have read about BC intelligence, I think that Bailey is fairly smart but not as smart as a purebred BC.

 

The Sighthound heredity makes him a great watchdog. He is keenly interested in observing everything that is happening in the world around him. When he is outside in his dog-yard, he observes the world through the chainlink fence and keeps track of everything in view.

 

So I am pleased with this mix, as he is exactly the personality that I want in a dog -- smart and observant. He doesn't get bored because he keeps fully occupied being a watch dog.

[Kat's Dogs]

After the shih tzus, Dazzle does seem more...umm.....active. And she is a very different dog, personality wise and physically. But I spent a TON of time training Peanut (one of the shih tzus) and just always thought that she could be a champion, I trained her as though she had every bit as much potential as any other dog. Even though people kept saying "Shih tzus are stubborn, you can't train them in Competition Obedience and Agility". But little Peanut proved them all wrong.

 

Everyone who meets Peanut says that she is SO smart and so responsive, and she wasn't really any harder to (or easier to) train then Dazzle.

 

Either I got luck I got a really smart Shih Tzu or it really does have something to do with how you train them. However, Border Collies are still a BIG step above all other dogs in smarts, but with a lot of work, maybe, just maybe, other dogs could be ALMOST as smart as them, but I don't think that any other dog could ever be as perfect as they are - no matter how much training you do. Although, we are a little biased aren't we?

[BustopherJones]

These rankings are taken from a book called "The Intelligence of Dogs" by Stanley Coren.

 

Brightest Dogs

Understanding of New Commands: Less than 5 repetitions.

Obey First Command: 95% of the time or better.

1 Border Collie

2 Poodle

3 German Shepherd

4 Golden Retriever

5 Doberman Pinscher

6 Shetland Sheepdog

7 Labrador Retriever

8 Papillon

9 Rottweiler

10 Australian Cattle Dog

 

Border Collies' intelligence is not limited to their natural instinct to herd. They also seem to have uncanny problem-solving skills. They can quickly learn other tasks that are helpful or entertaining for humans, from sniffing out drugs and explosives to competing in agility or athletic competitions. Some have been trained to be assisted living dogs; they also make excellent SAR dogs, particularly in cases of collapsed buildings where their agility and sure-footedness gives tham an advantage over other traditional SAR breeds. In northern climates, some Border Collies are used as sled dogs. (Remember "Nana" in "Snow Dogs"?)

 

Incidentally, of the 79 breeds ranked for intelligence, the following are the most intellectually challenged (politically correct terminology):

70 Shih Tzu

71 Basset Hound

72 Mastiff

73 Pekingese

74 Bloodhound

75 Borzoi

76 Chow Chow

77 Bulldog

78 Basenji

79 Afghan Hound

[airbear]

The thing about Coren's list is that he is measuring intelligence as "how well does a given breed work with people". In fact, the ranking in the original Intelligence of Dogs book was based on the results of a survey sent to obedience judges.

 

There are many skews in the study, to which Stanley admits. One example is that while a lot of respondents named Dobermans as meeting their criteria as 'highly intelligent', they qualified their response to "female Dobermans". Poor boy dobies.

 

I used to do obedience with him, and one night we got to talking about border collies, and how his book may be contributing to the increasing numbers of border collies in rescue, since people think "I have to have the smartest dog!" and what they really need is a fairly dumb dog. He never meant the list to be the most important bit of the book, but that's what everyone remembers. If you have your dog take the adaptive intelligence test in the book, you'll get a much broader view into how your dog processes information.

 

Back to the original question - I would have to say that Wick is the smartest of my three, but that might be because she does everything at full-speed so it just LOOKS better. Instant down, fastest recall in the west, flying through agility courses, etc.

 

Bear is quite clever, but he doesn't really apply himself anymore. Back in the day, though, he could learn anything if a ball or a bit of cheese were involved.

 

Lou, er, um ... brilliant on sheep and cattle, lovely to have around the house, don't know if he's what one would call "smart".

[BustopherJones]

I used to do obedience with him, and one night we got to talking about border collies, and how his book may be contributing to the increasing numbers of border collies in rescue, since people think "I have to have the smartest dog!" and what they really need is a fairly dumb dog.

To support your point, the following is an excerpt from a CNN.com report dated October 17, 2003:

 

When border collies were named in a book a couple of years ago as the smartest breed of dog, thousands of people flocked to breeders to buy them. The result, Haug (Lore Haug, a veterinarian at Texas A&M University who specializes in animal behavior) said, was too often a lot of frustrated dogs and owners.

 

"These dogs have a compulsive need to have a job, that's one reason that so many of them make miserable house pets," Haug said.

 

Some dogs go berserk in a house or even a small yard; others develop obsessive-compulsive disorders, and because of that many get dumped or even euthanized. For the most part, Haug said, the desire to work and to herd is inherent in the breed, and a border collie can't be turned into a lap dog just because that's what an owner might want.

[Falcon]

As to the general public's view of BCs, whenever I've mentioned that the reason I'll be out of town this weekend is to pick up my puppy, the question was about his breed. I say he's a Border Collie, and except for ONE person (and I've spoken with quite a few of varying dog expertise), they all say "Those dogs are really smart, right? Like, the smartest?"

 

...If only their first thought was "Those dogs are really athletic, quirky, workaholic, 'hyper', shedding, compulsive, not-for-everyone, smart dogs, right?" then we might not have so many in rescue.

 

(I won't say how old I am, but I was a waiter at the Last Supper)

So is Jesus a good tipper?

[border_collie_crazy]

I dont like stanley corans intelligence test, it rated Happy as "happy go lucky" how she got that rating I will never know lol put a ball under a 5 gallon pail and all the other dogs sniff and circle, Happy walks up grabs the handle flips the pail and takes the ball, as if it were the most obvious solution on the planet lol give her a treat ball and all the other dogs push it around hoping for treats, Happy lays down, placed her paw on it, pushes it to just the right angle, all the treats fall out, she eats them, if some get stuck she rocks the ball to dislodge them. lol sorry but those aint trademarks of a "happy go lucky" dog!