Line Bred or Inbred?

[Circle C]

I'm going to look at a little of BC pups tomorrow. As of right now, they're not registered, but CAN be registered with the ABCA as they're parents are registered. The lady is moving and the pups were accidental, so she wants $50 for them b/c she can't keep them and needs to get rid of them ASAP. She said the parents show a lot of herding instinct, but they are just pets.

 

Now on to the accidental part: A last years pup got to the bitch, who is also his mother. How bad is this? Would it be line breeding or inbred....or both? She said she was worried when she figured out she was bred and her vet told ehr they'd be fine. She said they are normal pups.

 

Any insight?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

There's really no magic line between "inbreeding" and "linebreeding". It would have to be a heck of a line to convince me to go for a mother/son breeding. What you have to watch out for, is not abnormal puppies (Border collies are healthy enough in general to withstand a good bit of tight breeding and still produce viable whelps). It's the recessive problems that are latent in the mother's background.

 

Add on top of this, these dog aren't worked so you don't know for sure how sound they are. And I'm sort of assuming, maybe wrongly so, that they haven't even had clinical testing done (can't do OFA on the sire, anyway, too young). There's temperamental things that can start popping up when the familiy tree starts getting redundant. Sharpness, shyness, oversensitivity.

 

This would be a big gamble. It's not worth the heartbreak in my thinking. I'm sorry for the pups but I'd feel I have to think of my family and my other dogs. You are in an area where there's a lot of really great, responsible breeders of superior Border collies. Why support this person?

[Circle C]

I guess I don't really see it as "supporting" the woman, I see it as giving a puppy a good home.

 

I plan on interacting with the parents a lot while I'm there to see how they are.

 

I'm not going to go out and spend $500 on a dog. It's sensless to me. Do I train my dogs, yes. I obedience train them AND play with them on stock for my own personal use. I don't show or compete.

 

As long as there isn't anything severely wrong with the parents, I'll probably end up with one.

 

But, they're only 6 weeks old, so I can't bring it home for a couple weeks If I could I'd probably buy them all!

[SoloRiver]

If you give her money for this puppy, you are tacitly endorsing her breeding practices.

[Barb Scott]

>I'm not going to go out and spend $500 on a >dog. It's sensless to me.

But...what if something health-related turns up after you're attached to the pup. How much are you willing to spend to care for it? Our BC Blaze had an immune problem when he was just a year old and ended up in intensive care at MI State University for almost a week. That bill was way over $1000. Then at age 6 he started having seizures; blood tests, meds etc. have added up through the years, but he's still going strong at age 12 and 1/2. It seems that with a mother/son breeding, any of the genetic problems BCs are prone to, would be multiplied, especially since parents haven't had health checks. You asked for advice, but it's certainly up to you if you accept it or not.

Barb Scott

[Eileen Stein]

I wouldn't pay for a pup like this. I would view you as doing her a favor for taking it off her hands. Which, if I were you, I would only do if you get up close and personal with the dam and sire, and absolutely love everything, without exception, about them. And if you don't care at all whether the pup has any herding ability, because there's no reason to think s/he will.

[Circle C]

I appreciate all your advice/views. Don't think I'm trying to be snotty or a know it all b/c I'm absolutely not.

 

The lady seems pretty nice. It was an accidental breeding. She didn't even want a litter. None the less, she was irresponsible for letting it happen. Her veterinarian told her the pups would be fine....that a brother/sister breeding would cause problems.

 

I do plan to take a squeaker toy to interact with the pups. We'll see if they have any kind of interest/early herding instinct. It's worked well for me in the past. I'm also going to spend a decent amout of time with the parents.

 

We'll see what happens. I'll fill you in tomorrow.

[Bill Fosher]

Linebreeding is a form of inbreeding, as is purebreeding for that matter. Asking if something is linebreeding or inbreeding is sort of like asking whether something is ecru or tan.

 

I agree with Eileen. If you take one of these pups, it has to be because you see absolutely no faults whatsoever with either parent, and because you have absolutely no expectations of the pup itself. How they react to the squeaker will tell you only how they react to a squeaker; nothing about herding instinct or ability.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Petstores sell quite a few puppies on the basis of "oh, how cute" or "I need to save that pup"

 

So by selling these pups to people who want to *save* or *rescue* them, this merely keeps the petstore in business....they don't care what reason the pup is sold, just the $$$

 

Since this litter has happened then she should have each one fixed before going to the new home....they can be fixed at a young age. Then these pups will not add to the breeding pool....

 

On a side note, if there is any health or tempermental faults then doubles up on it.....say for example epilepsy....are you willing to deal with the heart break.......

 

I got a puppy that was inbred....her temperment is not the best and her sibling and uncles were put down due to biting and also they went blind (genetic eyes issues). We worked with her for years to prevent her from biting and kept her away from kids etc so she won't bite them....finally at 13.5 yrs she is too stiff to chase and bite anyone, too deaf to hear them and too blind to see them. had I known what I know now, I would never have gotten her. I got her fixed at 12 weeks or so....best thing I have ever done. (aside from marrying Jeff!!)

 

oh, she was a average working dog....all heart and short on talent.....

 

JMHO................

[Circle C]

This is a response I got from another forum. It makes sense to me.....

 

"Inbreeding is when the same individuals are within the first two generations. After that, we're looking at linebreeding.

 

Rick is correct, inbreeding is how we get a "type" &, consequently, develop "breeds". Typically, after the breed is developed, linebreeding & out-crossing is utilized.

 

In school, they taught us that one of the first things to go in an intensive inbreeding program is height. [Hmmm... Three of my four grandparents are from western Ireland. I wonder if that's why I'm vertically challenged...??? ] The operative word here, though, is "intensive". Is the bitch inbred to begin with? If not, we're not looking at "intensive".

 

Remember that genetics is NOT like mixing paint. It's a game of "dominant" & "recessive". Good traits [good conformation, athletic ability, etc.] are usually dominant because they contribute towards species survival. Now, for each trait, an offspring will get one gene copy from each parent. Because of this, with inbreeding, we intensify whatever traits we're dealing with. If they're dominant, we get a concentration of that. If we're dealing with recessive traits, again, we get a concentration of those.

 

IMO, look at the parents. You know what a good BC looks & acts like. If you see things you don't like, take a pass. If they're nice individuals, though, it might be a good opportunity. Got pics? Good luck!"

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

There are many conflicting definitions of inbreeding and linebreeding. There is no single authoritative or generally accepted definition. Doesn't really matter if you call it one or the other -- "mother-to-son breeding" tells you what you need to know.

[Allie+Tess&Kipp]

The fact that this woman is asking $50 a pup may mean that she is asking money because someone who can afford a "free" dog often cannot provide vet care, etc. Asking a token amount like this is very common, at least around here, to make sure that the person taking the dog is serious.

 

It sounds like this woman probably knows she could lie about the father, sell the pups for $300 each, and make a bundle. She is not trying to make any money off this, it sounds like.

 

However, if she was not getting them shots, worming, etc. in a timely fashion, then I would skip it.

 

Allie + Tess & Kipp

http://weebordercollie.com

[SoloRiver]

The fact is, I think, that CircleC has already decided to get this puppy and is looking for justification to do so. It's her choice. We've already told her what we have to tell her.

[starbuck]

Whether you do your homework and find a dog bred from carefully selected lines or take a chance on a questional breeding, you take a chance. I have done both and either way have wound up with fine dogs with expensive and heartbreaking problems. It's just a chance you take. Wishing the best for you-

[concrete]

I think if you are going to take a squeaker toy to interact with the pups you should be fine.

 

Kevin

[Lenajo]

Her veterinarian told her the pups would be fine....that a brother/sister breeding would cause problems.

She's either lying to you, or her vet is as suspect as she is. There is no scientific merit to putting one sort of *close inbreeding* over the other...mother/son, father/daughter, brother/sister, uncle/niece...etc.

 

You might get a good pup from this, or you might get a wall eyed idiot who costs you thousands in vet bills plus emotional misery.

 

Honestly, you'd be better off going to the pound and adopting the first Border Collie that showed interest in working your stock.

 

LenaJo

[Smokjbc]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Her veterinarian told her the pups would be fine....that a brother/sister breeding would cause problems.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

She's either lying to you, or her vet is as suspect as she is. There is no scientific merit to putting one sort of *close inbreeding* over the other...mother/son, father/daughter, brother/sister, uncle/niece...etc.>>>

 

One other thing on the vet aspect- the vet may not even be suspect, it could be purely anecdotal on his/her part. When we do have litters or even the occasional "close" litter, we don't see many of those pups past the first three months and most seem fine till that point. After that, its any one's guess.

 

I have worked for many vets over the years, mostly fantastic ones, but the art of breeding dogs (beyond the actual mechanics of doing so and the mechanics of whelping) is not a major vet school subject. Most vets I know are not interested in finer points of dog genetics and more than a few roll their eyes when they have to deal with a "breeder". So I would take the vet saying "it's fine" with a grain of salt. Obviously, that's not necessarily true, especially with diseases like epilepsy- which would be my primary concern here.

[Kyrasmom]

While it's an accidental litter, and $50 won't get her far, she still obviously bred a litter before that to get the son....and if the bitch is just a pet now, I"m assuming she was just a pet then as well.

 

Just a thought.....

 

Maria

[DeltaBluez Tess]

One great source regarding breeding...

 

"Border Collie Studies" by John Herries McCulloch

Published in 1951

 

Chapter VII What about in-breeding.

.....The great danger of inbreeding is that it may establish one of more serious defects in a breed. It would be a calamity if hidden or recessive weakness in the breed were allowed by careless breeding to come to the surface and spread. This chapter goes into great detail about inbreeding and give good examples of proper inbreeding

 

Chapter VIII Why Inbreeding is dangerous.

(In a nutshell since I didn't feel like typing the enitre chapter)....... Therefore the elementary mechanism of genetic process which develops defects by inbreeding should be understood. In the first place, hidden or recessive characters- the unwanted kind that suddenly appear in a well bred pup for no apparent reason are nearly always linked with weakness. They come to the surface when both parents are homozygous for them-which is another way of saying that both parents carry the genes of the recessive unwanted characters.

 

Inbreeding therefore has made the Border collie breed peculiarly vulnerable to certain diseases and defects and breeders must be careful at all times to avoid breeding to recessive weaknesses.

The chapter goes on about blindness in other breeds and how it occurred in later generations.

 

He states that "intense inbreeding as son back to his mother, or brother to sister, would be dangerous if carried out with Border Collies, which depend so much on their vigor, speed, eyesight, hearing and intelligence"

[mydogMilton]

Wow hot topic! I got Milton from an animal shelter and know virtually nothing of his past... He was carefully wacthed and we worked with him before we took him; But if I was in your position with such a history... I don't think I would go for it. With Milton there was a fifty/fifty chance of his potential I took the chance and so far he's shown incredible potential. On the other end if I would've known that I had a twenty/seventy chance (which is probably what you have) of the dog you're interested in, I wouldn't take on that resposiblity. My advice for you would be to find a really good expert who you could be confident in in telling the truth. Give them the history and take them to the pups and see what they say. Please don't go with it unless you're VERY confident over your descision!

[Circle C]

Originally posted by Allie+Tess&Kipp:

The fact that this woman is asking $50 a pup may mean that she is asking money because someone who can afford a "free" dog often cannot provide vet care, etc. Asking a token amount like this is very common, at least around here, to make sure that the person taking the dog is serious.

 

It sounds like this woman probably knows she could lie about the father, sell the pups for $300 each, and make a bundle. She is not trying to make any money off this, it sounds like.

 

However, if she was not getting them shots, worming, etc. in a timely fashion, then I would skip it.

 

Allie + Tess & Kipp

http://weebordercollie.com

I agree with that as well. She already had a vet appoint. scheduled for them, so she isn't making any $$ off them at all.

 

I went and looked at them and I was really impressed with the parents! Really, all my dogs are are pets as well. Yes, they work, but only for my pleasure and their own. They don't get to work as often as they'd (or I'd) like.

 

Here is a photo of the little guy. I named him Zip.

 

[painted_ponies]

So did you get him, then? He's a cutie.

 

Just to weigh in on the line bred/inbred question, I've known lots of pups who were the products of "doubling up" on a parent. AKC conformation breeders do it fairly often, when they want to "fix" or emphasize a certain trait. Works sometimes. Also sometimes has unintended consequences.

 

For example, my parents had a Norwegian Elkhound who was the product of a father-daughter breeding. The dog had a beautiful head and an excellent temperament, and the breeder wanted to double up on those traits. Bo, my parents' bitch, had a gorgeous head and was the sweetest dog it's ever been my pleasure to know. Unfortunately, she also had legs about half the length they should have been! She was completely sound and lived to a ripe old age as a beloved pet with no unusual health problems - but she sure was funny looking! Didn't matter to my parents one bit - they adored her.

 

As the product of generations of line breeding myself - we have a family polygon, not a tree - this is a subject I find very interesting. So please keep us posted as to how your little fellow turns out.