Jump to content
BC Boards
Carson Crazies

Concerned about over-vaccination??

Recommended Posts

Thank you for explaining Lucie's condition to everyone. I didn't want to even try!! All though I have a good understanding of it now, I don't feel that I could explain it to anyone else.

 

Lucie has the immune-mediated hemolytic anemia type, and it really was just speculation that the vaccine was the cause. However, she was health prior to the vaccine and now if she is given so much as a Heartworm pill she becomes ill. I'm always looking for new treatments for Lucie. The current treatment and usually the treatment of choice can be just as harmful.

 

But, due to all of this, my dogs get titers now, not yearly vaccines. (Except for what is required by law!!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AK Doc, thank you so much for contributing your expertise to this forum. It's getting more difficult to separate rumor from truth, fact from fiction with the vast amount of info available on the internet.

 

In my case, my little ACD had a series of focal seizures last year (4 in 4 months). She was seen by a veterinary neurologist. After viewing the results of an MRI, the neurologist felt the seizures were likely the result of a vascular event in her brain. Going forward, she recommended that all future vaccines (except the required rabies) be avoided. My vet said he would follow this protocol, but he didn't really agree with it. She is 10 years old, and I figured she's probably had enough vaccinations that her immune system is protected. Even so, I've struggled with this issue,weighing the recommendation of the specialist against the opinion of my personal vet (who has *never* let me down). On a similar note, by brother developed a serious auto-immune system disease following vaccinations he received before going to south Asia. Were the vaccines responsible for triggering his disease or would it have surfaced anyway-who can say for sure?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just re-reading this post to be sure there wan't anything I left out (yeah, like I could include everything there is to know about this.... what am I saying?!? :rolleyes: ) :D

 

I did forget to point out that the immune system gears up to respond to both novel and "known" invaders (things it remembers) if it is NORMAL - if the animal is immunosuppressed or has another immunodeficiency, this may not happen. Even a "small" immonodeficiency - such has having IgG subclasses 2 and 4 but not 1 and 3, for instance - can prove fatal.

 

I also wanted to mention that in a recent AAHA audio conference (3/7/06), the suggestion on vaccine protocols for NORMAL animals was to do the puppy series (not to begin prior to 6 weeks of age, vaccines to be given every three to four weeks; the suggestion was 8, 12 and 16 weeks, and they advised that at least 2 vaccines be given from 12 weeks on; hence, not 6, 9, 12), then boost everything one year later. After that, the "core" vaccines - distemper, parvo and adenovirus - would drop to a three-year protocol, unless otherwise indicted by titers. Rabies vaccine should be given as required by law in your area. Things like leptospira and bordatella will need to be boosted yearly in most at-risk animals, but not all animals are at risk for those, so let your vet advise you. Titers were felt to be most useful for adenovirus, parvo, distemper and rabies. It appears based on evidence that there is excellent correlation between the titer levels and the level of protection the dog actually has. Titers in recently-vaccinated dogs (such as pups finishing their series, for instance, or dogs being boosted because titers showed a loss of immunity) should be done no sooner than 2 weeks following the last vaccine. If good levels are not detected, re-test in 2 weeks. If good levels are STILL not detected, revaccinate (in case lingering maternal antibody blocked the vaccine or some other event occurred to prevent the dog from being properly immunized.) Rates of non-responders (as in, will NEVER produce immunity to a particular agent) were given as 1/2000 for parvo, and 1/5000 to 1/10,000 for distemper. (A given dog would NOT be expected to be a non-responder for both diseases - either/or.)

 

Hope that makes sense to all. I think you can also get the AAHA guidelines if you want to read them. Ping me if questions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ak Dog doc how old do they recommed the dogs be before skipping and titering? Jewel got the heck vaccinated out of her when she was 9 months so I skipped a year I was planning to vaccinate Dal again and jewel as we will have the puppy. Is it safe then to wait the 3 years on Jewel? Should Dal get a 2 year old set?

 

I did the every 3 year educated guess thing with Kirby after his 3 year shots but, he didnt really go anywhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After the full series of puppy vaccines, they should be boosted 12 months later - regardless of what age they were when the "puppy" series is given. For most dogs, who get their puppy series completed by 4 months of age, that means they should be boosted about 16 months of age, more or less. For a dog who got the puppy series late, like say 6 months old, they should be boosted at a year and 6 months. If they got their first set of paired vaccines (two vaccines of the same type given 3 to 4 weeks apart, and occuring after 12 weeks of age, ie, the "puppy series") completed at a year, they should be boosted at two years. After that they should go to the three year unless there's a reason why not (and in some cases, as stated above, there IS a reason why not.)

 

SO: puppy series, then 12 months later boost everything, then go to a three-year (except as noted above for certain exceptions: poor responders, high exposure risk, certain agents such as bordatella and leptospira, titers below protective levels, or guidelines required by law as for rabies.) Is that making sense? And as always, I can't see your dogs, so be guided by those who can, and remember that titers are safer than guessing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you so much AK Dog Doc for all of the wonderful information! I'm going to print it out so I can sit down and pay close attention!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AK Dog Doc,

 

it is my understanding that the viral vaccines give much longer protection than the bacterial vaccines; is this correct? If so; that makes vaccination interesting since many are combinations of viral and bacterial.

 

BTW, come on down and we'll make sure you get your fill of working your dogs on sheep.

 

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mark, right on both counts (now, why am I not surprised...?) :D Fortunately, there is a viral combination vaccine offered without lepto (which in this area is not a big issue, but for dogs that travel, it might be). Bordatella is given as a single agent. There are different lepto serovars, which do not have good cross reactivity between them as far as the vaccines go. So, if you have a dog at high risk for lepto, the advice is to use a lepto 4-way (which is a 4-way for the different LEPTO serovars, not for anything else). Lepto is a re-emerging disease, as a BTW, because people stopped vaccinating for it, so if you live in a high-risk area (ask your vet), it's probably a good idea to vaccinate yearly for that. If not, the need is less pressing.

 

And be careful what you wish for... I might just take you up on that invite one day (probably not right away, though, so you're safe for now!) Can I bring the BF? (Hmm, maybe he should fly us down in the 180!) :D His dog is twice the stockdog mine is, I fear. (Sigh.) :rolleyes: But I adore her, so I don't mind so much! (Maybe I should trade wine for orphan lambs...) :D :D

 

Sheryl, I guess your choices are to try to talk your vet into it or to try to find one more in sync with your preferences. If you like your vet, maybe requesting (coaxing, cajoling, bribing) them to try titers would be worth the effort? Your call.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to move this to the Health & Genetics forum and sticky it for now, and maybe move it to the FAQ once everyone has finished posting.

 

Thanks everyone, especially AK dog doc!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you ak dog doc

 

I like my current vet but, I know he is not on board with titers. I may look for another vet in the future.

>>> Sheryl

 

Hi,

 

Just wanted to say I agree with AK Doc about talking to your vet about it first. However, if you really trust your vet and feel he/she is medically sound- I wouldn't leave them over this. Even if he doesn't completely agree with doing titers vs. vaccines- you can still have him do it (if he uses the main labs, the only thing he has to do is draw the blood and send it). We have lots of clients who do things differently than we recommend vaccine wise or other health care wise. Most vets will, especially in the "information age" that we are in now. Clients are better educated than they used to be and we cater to what they feel is best for their dog (without compromising medical care). Give your vet a chance to work with you- but IMHO there are FAR more important things to worry about like diagnostic skills and just the ability to get sick pets better. Not all vets are created equal in those capacities and if you found one that is good under pressure and in difficult medical situations- keep her/him. I've worked with a vet who recommended titers whom I wouldn't let touch one of my dogs with a ten foot pole. Not that would be representative of vets who use titers, of course- but just to say I wouldn't give up a good vet over this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AK, thank you so much for all that information!! That was extremely helpful.

 

I'm wondering if anyone has a link to an explanation of why 3-year is recommended (in absence of titers)? I know you explained that it's more or less a "best guess" type thing - but I'm interested in seeing how they came to arrive at that number.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a dilemma. My dog's annual vet visit is next week and I had wanted to do a titre test instead. But we are going away next month and he needs to be boarded and they require up to date vaccinations (including parvo, distemper). :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AfterThought, here is what happened when we went. They took the blood, and sent it off to their lab to have titers run. A few days later, they called me back, and said everything was just fine --- and then they changed her records to say that the vacc's were due NEXT year. Ergo, her shots were now current as far as my vet and their paperwork was concerned.

 

Call your vet and see how this works for them, and hopefully they can clarify and give you peace of mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by Miztiki:

What is IgG and what does it mean if it's elevated?

In the body there is a class of protein call immunoglobulin; there are several classes of these: IgG, IgM, IgA, IgD and IgE. IgG comprises ca. 75% of the immunoglobulins. These proteins are expressed by the body in defense of a foreign body and are usually referent to as antibodies. IgGs are expressed for virus and bacteria while IgMs are usually expressed for allergies.

 

Titers measure the amount of specific IgGs (antibodies) present in the blood. These levels can indicate reaction to a recent threat to the body (infection) or readiness of the body to deal with potential threats (immunity).

 

BTW this is written with the bias of one theory of immunity, there is another.

 

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Carson Crazies,

 

Thanks for the clarification. I just called my vet's office and they said they don't do titres. But the tech told me that my dog's upcoming vaccination (he's almost 3)will be his second adult booster and that will last for 3 years. So he won't be due again till 2009. Definitely feel better now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been doing some research and found some sites that list recommendations for vaccination. I thought I'd share them here. In no way do I endorce any specific one nor vouch for the website's validity, this is just what came up in my search.

 

http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm

 

http://www.critteradvocacy.org/Are%20We%20...0Our%20Pets.htm

 

http://www.sagekeep.com/vaccines1.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheRuffMuttGang

Sorry to bring this topic up since it hasn't been posted on in almost a month, but I couldn't hold back about this issue.

 

Lunar, thanks for posting the Dodds article, btw!!

 

Just curious...has no one here done their own research on over-vaccination and vaccinosis? I think it is wonderful that there is a vet here giving advice, but I think the ultimate decision is up to each individual person after said person has done a lot of reading and researching of their own.

 

After doing my own research, I have opted to not vaccinate my current pets (dogs and cats) at all from here on out. I am confident after my research efforts in making this decision.

 

Following are some helpful articles. Take the time to read them if you have any doubts about vaccines! Do more of your own research. Do a Google search for "over vaccination" or "vaccinosis" and you will be surprised what you find out!!

 

http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?acti...tem=vaccination

 

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/froghollerfilas/VaccBlanco.html

 

http://www.homeovet.net/content/lifestyle/section2.html

 

http://www.caberfeidh.com/VaxNone.htm

 

This one, although written primarily about cats, is excellent at explaining why we do not and SHOULD not vaccinate our pets on a yearly (or even triennially) basis.

 

http://www.blakkatz.com/vaccination.htm

 

Alright, fire away!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Debbie writes:

Just curious...has no one here done their own research on over-vaccination and vaccinosis? I think it is wonderful that there is a vet here giving advice, but I think the ultimate decision is up to each individual person after said person has done a lot of reading and researching of their own.
No... no one here has given it much thought, to be honest.

 

I'm kidding, obviously. The Boards have a thread on vaccination protocol once a month or so, with links to research articles and everything. Do a search, and you'll see why Eileen made this a sticky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheRuffMuttGang

Thanks. I have been a member here for a while but don't read on a daily basis and therefore miss a lot of threads. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just wanted to make sure others were aware of these things since I didn't see it discussed in this particular thread. I know how annoying it can be to have to repeat things over and over on message boards for those who don't read threads, etc. So anyhow...thanks for the clarification Luisa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheRuffMuttGang

Okay, I looked at all of the ones you linked to, Luisa, and all it is are people saying they will ask their vet this, and ask their vet that about vaccines. In the end everyone got shots, including the useless and dangerous bordatella vaccine! No one even bothered to dicuss the issues presented in the articles I just posted such as: giving our dogs chronic diseases vs. giving them acute diseases. MANY of the health problems we see in our furry friends these days are directly related to over-vaccination. Here is ax excerpt from the angelfire site:

 

What Are the Adverse Reactions, If Any?

Unfortunately, adverse reactions to vaccines have been considered to be the immediate hypersensitivity reactions of anaphylaxis. This severely limits the types of reactions that are ever even considered to be related to vaccines. Other problems surface which make accurate tallying of adverse reactions difficult. At present time there are no easy or effective reporting systems; many vets are reluctant to report even those where an animal dies, and the cause-effect relationship is not always clear. Even to those who believe that many of the illnesses we see, both acute and chronic, are directly related to over-vaccination, it is still at times difficult to show how this works.

 

There are many situations where the perfectly healthy puppy is taken at 6 weeks for his first vaccines. Maybe he has a slight fever or lack of appetite and energy for a day or so. Then he is returned 2 to 3 weeks later for more vaccines. Maybe he will show another fever or maybe a day of diarrhea. Then he is returned in 2 or 3 weeks for more vaccines. Maybe he starts to itch a bit. Often by the time the pup is 6 months old he has several problems going on. He often has loose stools and he itches, but there are no fleas. Thus begins the first stages of chronic illness brought on by the vaccines.

 

When a perfectly healthy individual is given viruses that cause illness, the animal is going to manifest illness-related symptoms. This healthy individual is asked to maintain a low-level stimulation of a state of distemper, a low level state of parvo, a low level state of rabies, and so on. As long as you are in a low level state of illness you are not in a high level state of health. Therefore, the vaccines provide protection by keeping the body in a diseased state of health. Often the animal will not manifest the illness it is vaccinated for, at least not in its acute form, but it will manifest in other conditions. Usually these conditions are inherited weaknesses.

 

Chronic symptoms look very much like the acute illnesses but they are often not life-threatening unless allowed to continue for years and years.

 

For distemper we often see:

Watery fluid dripping from the nose

Conjunctivitis, eye discharge, entropion

Chronic gastritis, hepatitis, pancreatitis, appetite disorders

Recurrent diarrhea

Sensitivity to food with resultant diarrhea

Epilepsy, rear leg paralysis, spondylitis

Lip fold dermatitis

Excessive licking of feet, eruptions between the toes, allergies

Kennel cough, chronic bronchitis

Chronic skin eruptions, especially lower half of body

Failure to thrive, abnormally thin

 

For rabies we often see:

Restless nature, suspicion of others, aggression to animals and people

Changes in behavior: aloofness, unaffectionate, desire to roam,

OR clingy, separation anxiety, 'velcro dog'

Restraining can lead to violent behavior and self-injury

Self-mutilation, tail chewing

Voice changes, hoarseness, excessive barking

Chronic poor appetite, very finicky

Paralysis of throat or tongue, sloppy eaters, drooling

Dry eye, loss of sight, cataract

Eating wood, stones, earth, stool

Destructive behavior, shredding bedding

Seizures, epilepsy, twitching

Increased sexual desire, sexual aggression

Irregular pulse, heart failure

Reverse sneezing

 

Some of the illnesses you are familiar with include any auto-immune disease such as lupus, red cell aplasia, auto-immune hemolytic anemia cardiomyopathies; neoplasias such as fibrosarcomas, mast cell tumors, thyroid tumors, etc.; inflammatory bowel disease, eczematous ears, any dermatological condition, warts, lipomas, poor hair coats, stomatitis, periodontal disease, thyroid disease, and the list goes on and on.

 

Now you could be wondering why I am so bold to 'blame' all these and more on vaccines. The reason is simple: I have an empirical, call it experimental lab where I visit daily and watch the animals, year after year. In the short years of my career I have seen the incredible increase in all these illnesses, some we never even learned in vet school. In fact, my vet school is now primarily an oncology treatment center! This was not the case a short 20 years ago. I have also spoken with many vets who have practiced longer than I and their response is the same. They did not see the level of chronic illness, nor the resistant and concretized type of illnesses that we see today.

 

Trust me when I say that I questioned everything in that excerpt before accepting it, the same as many other people will do. But read through 100 articles that say the same thing and your mind will start to change as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In the end everyone got shots, including the useless and dangerous bordatella vaccine!
We must not be looking at the same links.

 

Many folks---I'm one---follow the advice of our holistic vets. Some opt for titers. Some do only what's required by law. Sample comment from my first link:

I vaccinate my dogs for Parvo and Distemper as puppies and then they are never vaccinated again.
I think you're reinventing the wheel, here, but hey---knock yourself out :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TheRuffMuttGang

Maybe we weren't reading the same links...I searched for "vaccination" "over vaccination" and "vaccinosis" on this site and didn't come up with anything resembling the information I have posted. Yes, I did see comments such as the one you posted about puppyhood vaccines, but no discussions on WHY vaccines are dangerous and WHY we shouldn't give them on a yearly basis. It's all good and well that people only give them every 3 years because the vet said it's okay...but do they know why they are doing so (my guess is YOU do, but I don't get that feeling about everyone)? Are they just doing it because "research says vaccines last x amount of years" or because they have educated themselves about the horrible, senseless diseases we are giving our dogs by vaccinating them so much?

 

I'm not reinventing the "wheel"--just trying to bring it to those who aren't already using it! Apparently everyone here has been properly educated and is using the "wheel" appropriately so I am done with this topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×