Dogs are not cargo.

[Atlanta Smitty]

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

This was probably true where industrialization had taken hold; but how can you say this is true where agrarian economics dominated society? I don't see how industrialization at that time planted and harvested rice, cotton, and other field crops which were the economic backbone of the south.

The biggest blow to the slave trade during that time was the Cotton Gin. I believe it was actually fairly cheap to produce. Same as a machine shop buying a lathe but not as expensive as say a CNC machine.

 

Another thing about how slavery was ending was the simple fact that the south was poor. Why keep slaves in homes and worrying about feeding them and keeping them healthy to be productive? When you could have a free man (Wether white or black) live on their own and work for cheap. And since it didn't cost you anything to obtain this worker it would be no big deal to fire them. Compared to paying a lot of money for a slave were you go through a lot of middle men.

 

The person who captured the subject is going to want money. Same for the person who sold the slave to a company who maintains a ship and crew who risks their lives going across the seas. Then slaves dying on you during the journey. That is money lost. Then selling them to a slave trader who has a building they have to pay for and upkeep. Including keeping the slaves well fed and alive to make more money. Then you have to pay non-slaves to make sure the slaves didn't run away. If one acted up you had to discipline them. Instead of just letting them go.

 

I rather have a Union worker than a slave. For me that is saying a lot.

 

Only 3% of the people in the south owned slaves. It was not the economic backbone of the south.

 

I consider the 1860s the death of America. It is a time where the Federal government took over. For example reconstruction. You thought the Katrina response was bad now. Imagine loosing hundreds of thousands of people. Destroying an entire region. And this happening where breaking news is months old.

 

Lincoln poured the foundation of big government. FDR set up the framework for Socialism. Democrats have put the basic neccesities of anti-individualism. The Republicans are adding the final touches.

 

Sometimes enough is enough. Vote Libertarian.

[Pipedream Farm]

Hmmmm, who to believe?????

 

The biggest blow to the slave trade during that time was the Cotton Gin. I believe it was actually fairly cheap to produce. Same as a machine shop buying a lathe but not as expensive as say a CNC machine.

 

Source: Atlanta Smitty

or

 

The invention of the cotton gin made the cultivation of cotton on large plantations using slave labor a profitable enterprise in the deep South.

 

The American Civil War: The Causes

Since the cotton gin made processing the harvested cotton cheaper but did not actually harvest; I'd say the economics of keeping slaves was not hurt by this improvement.

 

Mark

[muddy bob]

Hey Atlanta,

I know folks around here that think the whole neighborhood went downhill when europeans started showing up WAY before the 1860s.

Just being a smartass. You needn't reply.

 

Mud

[Atlanta Smitty]

That's why our founding fathers felt it was necesarry to establish a federal government. To protect the country from other governments who would try to take advantage of a loose confederation. Such as the Native-Americans who I believe your referring too.

 

I'm saying the cotton gin was a blow becuase now instead of buying just as many slaves to pick cotton bare of seeds as you needed to pick the cotton from the feilds. You could find cheaper free labor to go pick the cotton. Then pay some more cheap labor just to throw it in the gin.

 

I think without the intervention of the federal government which led to the Civil War. Slavery would have not lastest more than 30years. It may seem like a long time but becuase of the violent nature that slavery ended hostilities towards the black community lingered well over a century. Which I might add the government added to.

 

If you ever watch "Gone with the Wind" when Ashley says he would have freed his slaves after his father died. That was the common mentality amongst many of the slave owners. You have to remember slave owners where generally intellects who made a lot of money. And where privatly educated and read many anti-slavery books.

 

Capitalism will always lead the way. If you leave it alone.

[Dixie_Girl]

Yes, capitalism will lead the way. It is why during WWII we could keep up with what our boys needed. Capitalism is what has kept this nation strong. The south knew slavery was bad because it didn't make economic sense. When it was winter and the fields were idle, so were the slaves, yet they still had to be fed and clothed, and seen to. The mini series Roots did a lot to help perpetuate the slave myths. The north has always had a dislike of black people. But they seen it as a way to help win the war. When the war first started there was no mention of freeing the slaves. That happened when the north seen slaves fighting right along side the whites. So they told the blacks if they come to their side they would free them. THAT'S when the whole free the slaves idea got started. The thing is, MOST slaves didn't buy into it. Why? In fact there is a famous prison, I believe in VA that the Union soldiers kept the rebel fighters. There were several black prisners. They were told they would get special treatment and would be freed if they took the Union oath. All but a very few refused. Why is that? The slaves knew what was coming down the turn pike as far as slavery went. But they also liked the southern life style. They liked the south. And they understood what the war was really being fought about. They didn't trust the north. They knew the north didn't care if they were slaves or not. It was when the carpet baggers came with blacks from the north that created disharmony betweent the races. But as long as the north and the rest of the world leaves the south alone we work things out. I will tell you that in my travels and the many people I have talked to, blacks find much more predjudice in the north and west coast than they do here.

 

Cuz the south still has manners!

[J&D]

Dixiegirl,

You're making a lot of generalizations here. Are you sure you're in a position to speak for all the slaves, all the present-day black people? I know people come from all different sorts of political perspectives here, but you almost seem to be defending slavery--or at least defending letting it 'run its natural course' which would have taken, what, 10 years? 20 years? 30? The time it takes for a child to be sent away to another plantation and grow up away from his family, for a woman to be raped--over and over again--by her master, for a man to be whipped. 10 years to pick cotton instead of going to school, raising a family, earning something of your own--you seem to be a big fan of capitalism for just about everybody except those slaves who loved well-mannered southerners.

 

Of course Lee had slaves. What's that got to do with anything?

[Dixie_Girl]

Generalization is correct. Not EVERY slave felt that way. Not EVERY black person feels that way. I am not defending slavery. I would not OWN a person. I re-read my post. I never once said they ALL did anything. The fact is, the majority of the south was against slavery. You talk about if it were allowed to run its course it would be more time for men to be whipped, children sent away, and women to be raped over and over and over again. But after the war, what did they have? Abject poverty. Southern whites who blamed the north for the poverty they were reduced to. But then the hatred spread to the blacks. When the north put them in positions of power in some cities. And the blacks, just as the whites had, abused that power. When the north did everything they could to punish the south, they ended up taking it out on the blacks. The blacks hated, the whites hated. And then the union sat back and let it all happen. Then in the 60's the civil rights movement got started. Now we have a new millinium. The south is rising out of its poverty and becoming a real force in the tech, manuf. and trans. forces. Atlanta is one of the fastest growing cities right now. I live in a town that is probly 70% black. We all get along just fine. The Confederate flag flew over the capital building for years and years. Then, good ol Jesse Jackson and others decided to stir things up. Boycott SC they yelled! Make them take it down. Well, SC compromised, they took it down, and put it right smack in the front of the capital. Now we don't have to strain our necks to see it, we can just drive right by.

 

You will read what you want into my post. But it has been a long time since the north and south agreed on much. I am not going to apologize for the period of slavery. I am not going to act responsible. I respect people for what they are. If they are decent folks, I treat them accordingly. If not, well, likewise.

 

In our schools and homes our youguns are still taught to say yes, ma'am and no sir. How about yours? We still teach our younguns to have respect for their elders. Regardless of color. How about yours? And it was only in recent years corporal punishment was taken out of our schools, again, from preasure from the feds. We still have CHRISTMAS programs. But I expect that will be taken too. We do have a certain lifestyle in the south. But I do see it getting eroded. Bit by bit. Come on down. You might just get a different perspective. But I am proud of my southern heritage. That won't change.

[J&D]

I am from Alabama, grew up there, and return as often as I can.

[Dixie_Girl]

Cool. Then you should know where I am coming from. I hope.

[muddy bob]

I can't believe how far we've strayed from our topic but I'm fascinated.

Dixie girl, what is your take on desegragation being thrust upon southern states by the government? Should it also have been allowed to run it's course?

I'm not trying to start something I just want to know.

 

muddy

[Black Watch Debatable]

The idea of faithful slaves in the Old South has been one of the most tenacious myths in American history. Slaves' fidelity to their masters' cause -- a falsehood constructed to support claims that the war was not about slavery -- has long formed one of the staple arguments in Lost Cause ideology.

From the March 5, 2006 review in The Washington Post of Confederate Emancipation: Southern Plans to Free and Arm Slaves During the Civil War, by Bruce Levine, published by the Oxford University Press.

 

More from the review:

Levine demonstrates, in one crisp, convincing quotation after another, that to Confederates the war was all about preserving their "property" in slaves. For example, plantation mistress Catherine Edmondston condemned any attempt to arm slaves because it would "destroy at one blow the highest jewel in the Crown." "Our independence," chimed in North Carolina Gov. Zebulon Vance, "is chiefly desirable for the preservation of our political institutions, the principal of which is slavery." And Brig. Gen. Clement H. Stevens spoke for most Confederate officers when he announced, "If slavery is to be abolished then I take no more interest in our fight."

In the increasingly embittered debate of 1864-65 over black enlistment, the proposal's advocates charged that their fellow Southerners would, in the words of a Georgia congressman, "give up their sons, husbands, brothers & friends, and often without murmuring, to the army; but let one of their negroes be taken, and what a howl you will hear."

In late February and early March 1865, after intensive debate and facing huge desertion rates in the Southern forces, the Confederate Congress adopted a halfhearted bill authorizing black enlistment. The House voted 40-37 and the Senate 9-8 to allow Davis to implement a voluntary plan in which no slaves were to be conscripted. Owners had to come forward and give their slaves to the cause. The law itself did not free a single slave and operated, as one of its proponents admitted, as a "free-will offering." Gen. Lee demanded urgent action to usher black men into his army, which was about to collapse in front of Petersburg. The war ended before anything could come of this last-ditch Confederate effort to find manpower -- which now looked, as a Mississippian gravely confessed, "like a drowning man catching at straws." Only in Virginia were any blacks actually mustered into companies, totaling at most perhaps 200 men. None saw meaningful combat, and, as Levine found, some of those who did wear Confederate gray did so as a means of running away to Union lines.

Sometimes Levine lets his research dominate when one would wish for more of his own narrative voice. But his conclusions are judiciously tethered to the evidence. And how can he avoid letting despairing Confederates speak for themselves, as does a South Carolina planter with remarkable candor right after Appomattox? "Born and raised amid" slavery, said Augustin Taveau, he had believed "that these people were content, happy, and attached to their masters." But "the conduct of the Negro in the late crisis of our affairs convinced me that we have all been labouring under a delusion."

Dixie Girl wrote

But as long as the north and the rest of the world leaves the south alone we work things out.

Implying that "the north and the rest of the world" are to blame for things like this is an amazing stretch. Is there prejudice elsewhere? Yep. Does that absolve the American South of its horrific history of racism---including the war fought to preserve the right to own, buy, sell and otherwise mistreat fellow human beings as if they were livestock? Nope.

[Jodi]

I lived in Southern California for 17 years or so.

 

In our schools and homes our youguns are still taught to say yes, ma'am and no sir. How about yours?

In the schools ... not even close. You should hear what those kids are 'taught' to say to adults.

 

We still teach our younguns to have respect for their elders

At the schools in L.A., I think the teachers would end up in a looney bin if any kid ever treated them with respect.

 

Regardless of color. How about yours?

What a concept. My son learned all about racism in school, and I found myself doing damage control.

 

And it was only in recent years corporal punishment was taken out of our schools, again, from preasure from the feds.

I have mixed feelings on this.

 

We still have CHRISTMAS programs. But I expect that will be taken too.

I was thrilled when I moved to Idaho, and someone said, "Merry Christmas" to me.

 

I feel very lucky that my son has grown up to be a very nice young man, with respect for those around him, despite what he was up against. I don't like to take any credit for the way he has turned out, but I can say that it takes a lot of work, time, effort and energy to raise children. And it's pretty sad when you see a kid whose parents had better things to do with their time. But with the laws enacted, and the schools informing the kids of their rights, you end up with a kid who says: "If you smack me, I'll call child services on you!" ?? Would you have ever said that to your parents? I know I wouldn't have. But my son grew up in that day and age. It's yet one of those very tough issues of ... do you make a law against physically punishing children that effects everyone, or punish the few? And at what cost and when? When the child is already dead because dad beat him with a 2x4? But now that they've put these blanket laws have been put in place that make it illegal for a parent to spank a butt, who is around to pick up the pieces when the kids are so far out of control, the parents are no longer effective? It's also why I have issues with (while we're at it, i'll bring this up, too...) abortion. There are many people who are pro-life and wanting to protect that fetus at all cost, but yet do nothing in the way of education prior to, or support of the child afterwards.

 

Jodi

[smileyzookie]

Originally posted by Jodi:

abortion. There are many people who are pro-life and wanting to protect that fetus at all cost, but yet do nothing in the way of education prior to, or support of the child afterwards.

ok, because of my strong feelings and inablility to not get angry on this subject.. I'll say only this.

 

It doesnt mean a fetus should die just because we dont know how they'll be educated or supported. Innocent babies should not pay the price of death for ignorant adults.

[Black Watch Debatable]

At the schools in L.A., I think the teachers would end up in a looney bin if any kid ever treated them with respect.

I've spent my entire teaching career (a quarter century) in SoCal public schools---inner city and suburbs, middle school and high school, including L.A.---and the polite, respectful kids vastly outnumber the rude ones. Anyone setting out to slam my students is going to have to deal with me first

I was thrilled when I moved to Idaho, and someone said, "Merry Christmas" to me.

Funny---I hear people in SoCal wishing each other "Merry Christmas" all the time. I wish tons of people Merry Christmas. I also wish friends and students a happy Eid or a happy Rosh HaShana. And if I'm not sure what they celebrate, I wish people "Happy Holidays." So sue me

 

/More grateful than ever to live in California

//Especially grateful to live in SoCal

[Black Watch Debatable]

And one more thing...!

 

I was at the vet's, years and years ago, when some idiot walked in with a black lab. Dog's legs looked like she'd gone a few rounds with a chipper shredder. Guy blusters, "Stupid dog---this is the second time she's gotten hurt jumping out of the truck. You think she'd learn!" (I'm not making this up---he really was that callous and that stupid.)

 

As much as I'd like to tell you this chucklehead's body is buried behind the animal hospital, and the poor lab was given a good home, the truth is that his dog was treated and no doubt returned to him. [sigh] But if looks could kill, the rest of us in the waiting room that day would have been felons for sure

[Dixie_Girl]

http://www.plpow.com/POW_Blacks.htm

This might be of interrest to some. The prison camp I was referring to before was Point Lookout in Maryland. Read especially about Dick Poplar.

 

To Muddy Bob, I admit I have mixed feelings on this. I will try to explain how I feel. For one thing it was a fed law that you could not deny entry to a school based on color. Again, they overide what a state might want and vote on. Again, I have a prob with that. We eventually ended up with this situation:

(all is hypothetical)

My husband and I make enough to put us upper-middle class. Almost rich. We therefore live in a very nice neighborhood and pay lots in property taxes which also covers school taxes. Then there is a black family, the Smiths, who barely earn enough to keep them off welfare. They do however own their own small very modest home. They pay very little property tax, there fore very little school tax. The school my kids go to gets a big piece of the school tax. They can afford to build a modern school and hire good teachers. The Smiths children however have to go to school where they don't get such a big piece of the school tax. They can barely keep repairs up much less build new. They can not offer much pay to the teachers so subsequently get sub standard teachers. Now, along comes the feds and says, hey, there are too many white kids in school A and too many blacks in school B. No fair. Okay, I want y'all to move 30% of your white kids to school B and 30% of your black kids to school A. Well, great. Except the white kids ain't happy cuz they don't know anyone. The black kids ain't happy cuz they don't know anyone. The Smith's are happy, not cuz their kids are going to a white school, but because they are getting a better education. Except they ain't cuz the kids ain't happy there. They miss their friends. We ain't happy cuz we are paying bucoo taxes for sub-standard education. Our kids ain't happy cuz they miss their friends. So what do you do? Well, I personally believe kids should go to school in the neighborhood where they live. And while I believe it is up to EVERY adult to make their OWN way in the world, a child should not suffer because of what station in life their parents are in. Therefore, I believe that all school taxes in a county that are collected should be dispersed evenly. That if schools do not maintain a certain criteria for what the students are learning, they should be addressed in what ever way the CITIZENS of said county decides. And maybe my kids won't go to a spiffy new school, they will be getting a good education. But the Smith's kids will also get a good education. And will do well in school. They will be in their own neighborhood, with their friends and their school will hold to the same standards as ours.

 

I know some will say, oh that sounds socialist. Well, maybe, but I feel strongly about education. Without it you are nobody. With it you are whoever you want to be.

[Dixie_Girl]

On abortion: A woman has a choice BEFORE conception. This whole thing of its a womans body she should get to decide is bunk. It ain't the womans body they are ripping out, it is a babys'. Funny that if a woman decides to have an abortion, she is protected under law and so is the doctor. However, and this is a true case, a guy commits a bank robbery and in the course of it, shoots a pregnant woman. The woman survives but her baby dies. The man is convicted of 2nd degree murder. Where in the world does that make sense? Oh, and then there is the rape defense. Why not give the child up for adoption? The child need never know he/she was the product of rape and will have a life. There are many ways of avoiding pregnancy. Too many for people to get abortions. When I got pregnant with my daughter, I went to Planned Parenthood for the preg test. When I went back(those were the days when the rabbit had to die)for the results the lady asked if I wanted an abortion. I said no, why would you ask that? So we got to talking and she told of a married couple who waited to have kids and aquired all that they wanted first. House, car etc. So they decide the time was right. She got preg and a month after the results she was back wanting an abortion. Seems they decieded they wanted to buy a boat that year instead. True story! I hope everytime they took that boat out, their baby's blood screamed at them.............

[Dixie_Girl]

Luisa, you called him a chucklehead, I think you are too kind. I had a few other names. That is just wrong.

[Dixie_Girl]

Luisa, I never said lynching was caused by the north. But the feelings leading up to this kind of behavior was. Just the way I see it. And the war was not fought so that the south could keep slaves. Why did the north not outlaw it before the war? Why was there not a bill in congress for the abolishion of slavery?

[Jodi]

Dixie girl,

 

Thank you for your opinion. I am stepping out of this conversation. We are on two very opposite sides.

 

Jodi

[Dixie_Girl]

And I thank you for yours. Let's get back to the awesome dogs we love. Sounds good to me!

[muddy bob]

Dixie Girl, I believe they want to convict the person who causes a woman to lose her fetus of second degree murder as a back door way to proclaim personhood on the fetus. Then it will be much easier to overturn Roe V. Wade. To some it makes much sense.

This will be my last post on this thread.

 

muddy

[woof99]

Wow!

I have just spent 40 minutes reading all the posts and have 1 thing to say.

Just to stir ^%$# up, what have you guys thought of "Bowling for Columbine"

As a Canadian, who has travelled in Europe and Australia, I am always fascinated by the U.S and SOME (please understand I am NOT saying that all americans are like this) of your people and the almost obcessive need to fight for things that do not affect you're everyday life. I live in Montreal, which is a very bilingual city of 4 million, we've had our 12th person killed just recently. We are anti-gun and pro choice, we drink, we smoke, people smoke weed on streets (cops will usually look away unless they are causing trouble), we are a very sexual city, they are sex shops and nude dancing bars. We have gay bars and a gay village, even a huge gay parade every year. As well as many other celebrations of all sorts of different groups of people. We have a very low sex crime rate, very low killing rate, racism is almost gone.

Can't we just mind our own business and stop looking at how others live, and make judgment calls. I always say, as long as no one is getting hurt (no pets too), who cares what people do, if they are happy, I am happy for them.

Wouldn't it be a better place to live if everone just relaxed a bit more?!

Looking at certain european countries, I am always inspired to improve on my culture, on my environment, and on improving myself as a good human being.

Peace out!

[Kit]

Hi Woof99,

 

I will start off first by saying my husband is Canadian and I am American. We went to Montreal for our honeymoon about 2 years ago. I was taken back by what I saw walking down the street. Mostly homeless children, I am talking YOUNG children. The prostitutes were preteen to teen. Also elderly begging for food and money. I saw the same in France and here in America.

 

You stated:

" I am always fascinated by the U.S and SOME (please understand I am NOT saying that all americans are like this) of your people and the almost obcessive need to fight for things that do not affect you're everyday life."

 

It affected my life to see what I saw in Montreal. It affected my life when a friend of mine was put in a Turkish Concentration Camp and a gun was placed to the head of each of his family members just because they are Kurdish and educated. It affected my life when Saddam excuted his brother and told him if someone from his family did not volunteer to be a suicide bomber they would kill his whole family! He was very young when this happened. Thankfully they escaped and an AMERICAN MARINE saved their lives. He is now a Pharm-D, which he worked his way through school. ( No! Our government did not pay).

 

Did you see the movie "Hotel Rowanda" ....too bad the Canadian Government was not supportive. How can you be relaxed when Genocide occurs in this world, Aids, Polio, Hunger....Maybe if the world started caring a little bit more...think of the possiblities.

 

The problem is people are getting hurt.

[woof99]

Hi Kit!

Wow, that was a great reply and it certainly made me realize that I was responding a little late in the game. I have seen Hotel Rwanda and I have read the book. Improving myself as a good human being does not mean to ignore the plight of others, in fact I find that empathy is something that is lacking more and more in todays society. What I do find though is that there are many people that I have met that obcess about certain rights they have, and that these rights are very important to them and they don't want laws to come and take these rights away, when if you really look at it, the rights they are holding on to are archeic and if these new laws came to be passed, nothing would change in their everyday lives.

I try to always see the point of view of both sides, but I can't in this case. Example; A man's view on abortion, I had this great (male) teacher in College (Ethical studies) that said that men have no right to decide what happens to a womans body. I couldn't agree more, it does not affect them. Obviously, it can affect their mood.. but I digress.

There's a great quote I read somewhere: The more I learn of men, the more I love my dogs. I can't remember who said it though, and if I remembered it correctly, but there it is.

Take care