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Miztiki

Whole prey model Q&A

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Hi Mark,

 

He covers 2 types of tapeworms, the regular beef/pork tapeworm in which he says that food fit for human consumption will have far fewer of these cyst but it's likely your dog will get them "The few worms that do devlop can be controlled by regular use of modern anthelmintics"-so worm your dog and clean up it's poop to limit the spread of eggs.

 

The second tape worm he covers is the Hydatid tapeworm. This one is the really nasty one and doesn't come from eating raw meaty bones cleared for human consumption.

 

" Depending on geograohy the worm is adapted to different primary and secondary hosts. In Australia and the UK dogs are usually the primary and sheep the secondary hosts. Other strains include a wolf/moose strain in North America, dingo/wallaby in Australia, coyote/deer in California and fox/hare in Argentina. Prividing the worm stays in these hosts there are few problems."

 

Domestic dogs become infected by eating offal infected with cycsts from either animals dead in the field or from home slaughtered and butchered animals whose offal was not checked for cysts and discarded rather than fed to the dog.

 

So, If you live in North America and you kill a deer or a moose for human consumption you should check the offal for cysts before feeding it. Or don't feed the offal of these animals to be safe, we have other choices for it, like sheep or goat or pig, for eyes and brains and whatnot.

 

The UK and the aussies have to watch their sheep offal very carefully before feeding it to their dogs.

 

I think I only have the protozoa to cover at this point- any takers?

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Actually it's me (Renee) who's the ninny --forgot to sign my name. It's actually the hydatid tapeworm I was worried about. After all, my dogs are turned in the sheep field for their turnouts. I didn't know for sure if it was a problem here. I had read some stuff about it in New Zealand and it had me concerned. I fed Rae part of a lamb liver the other day and I was cutting it up and looking at it myself to see if it looked funny.

Renee

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Originally posted by INU:

Thanks again.

 

So switching back and forth wouldn't hurt? 3 months then 3 months etc. I enjoy cooking or preparing meals for them - and it's not really intimate/fun to just scoop kibble and feed in a bowl so I am very interested.

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[QB]

Originally posted by INU:

 

So switching back and forth wouldn't hurt? 3 months then 3 months etc.

*****************

Sorry about that.

Try #2! Switching a dog on to and off of raw food may cause a bit of digestive upset, but it may not. The worst thing about switching a dog to kibble, for whatever reason, is that the dog isn't eating healthy while it's eating kibble.

 

I'd say it's easier on the dog's system to feed entirely raw until you have to feed it entirely kibble. Mixing the two concurrently is often, um, messy.

Chris O

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Originally posted by Woodenlion:

[QB] Mark, Ninny? I doubt it.

 

I have to admit I am spraying the counters and washing my hands with bleach constantly now. It's weird being so focused on meat.

*******************

Toni, it would be safer to use something less invasive than breach. Certainly your hands don't need the treatment! A 50/50 mix of water and vinegar disinfects any surface. Or using hydrogen peroxide full strength plus the water/vinegar mix will do the trick.

 

But really, an ordinary washing with soap and warm water, nothing fancy at all, will work just fine.

Chris O

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Originally posted by Miztiki:

Take pictures! :rolleyes:

 

Be careful with the ribs. Are they beef ribs? They are hard and can crack teeth. I fed Boy beef ribs for the first couple months but got nervous and stopped.

*******************

Individual beef ribs are worry than they're worth, since they're mostly hard bone. But a slab of ribs--4 or 5 stuck together with meat and fat and sinew and gristle--is a great workout, lots of ripping and tearing and nibbling and gnawing ends. Getting every last bit of edible whatevers off the bone takes a good long time, too. When the bones are ripped apart and picked clean, I toss them. This usually keeps the actual bone chewing to a minimum.

Chris O

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Originally posted by Miztiki:

Don't use cod liver oil. You want fish body oil. Don't ask me why because I've forgotten, but there was a big explanation on the raw list about it. You could ask them or do a search. If you can locate a good source of naturally oily fish and give that to Jack once a week, then you could skip the oil altogether from what I understand.

I can answer that! Cod liver oil offers very little Omega 3 fatty acid (the stuff that is woefully absent in feedlot-raised livestock); its primary virtues are vitamins A and D. Both A and D are successfully addressed by the sort of raw diets you've been describing, so they are redundant. Now, if one increases the CLO dose to increase the Omega 3 levels, then the A and D also go up...and since both are fat soluble vitamins, their increase just gets stored up in fat, often to toxic levels.

 

Since fish BODY oil (or Salmon oil) offers no A and D, plus higher levels of Omega 3, it is a much more effective/efficient oil.

 

Flaxseed oil is not a useful Omega 3 delivery oil either, since it requires of a dog 30% more energy to change the O-3 precursors into usable O3. Animal based oils will always be more bio-available for our dogs. Also, unless you're feeding a completely grassfed/finished natural diet, there's plenty of Omega 6s in raw food (like, too many) so there is also no need to supplement with Omega 6 or 9. Only the 3's are lacking.

 

FWIW, menhaden oil is positively LOADED with Omega 3s, so if you can get it, do so. Cheaper than salmon oil or undifferentiated fish body oil, and more bang to boot.

Chris O

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Originally posted by Kitch:

[QB] Another (possibly stupid ) question - what are chicken backs? Are they a normal cut of chicken?

*****

Chicken backs are what's left after the chicken processor has stripped off every edible and reasonably accessible bit of meat and bone. Chicken backs are so very far from the concept of a raw juicy, succulent meaty bone that they might as well be alien beings. They ARE alien being!

 

Alone they are way too bony, and unless plenty of meat is added to a chicken back meal, a dog may wind up pretty constipated.

 

Basically chicken backs are extra income. They are beneficial to the seller but not to the dog.

 

 

As for veggies - we used to have a dog that loved squash, esp acorn squash. Would go into the garden and grab them the minute they turned ripe - drove my father nuts trying to get to the squash before the dog did (my father never did win)

*****

Like any garden goody. Seasonal windfall that comes in great heaps and then disappears for the rest of the year is pretty normal scavenge. Doesn't mean the carnivore needs the stuff for nutrition, but unless the dog seems to suffer from wretched excess, it's not worth losing sleep over, one way or the other. It's the notion of specially processed veggies that doesn't sit right. What clever dogs snatch up on their own is a different story!

Chris O

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Folks, Chris knows ALOT more than me about raw, so anything he (or she?) recommends or advises against can pretty much be trusted.

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Originally posted by IronHorse:

my confusion is whats the difference between whole prey and BARF?

********************

The term BARF was coined years ago by a dog wellness group but lifted later by Ian Billinghurst as Bones And Raw Food to define his "new" way of feeding. Whatever it was orginally, I can't recall, but it wasn't Bones And Raw Food.

 

Billinghurst endorses significant processed vegetation--25% of the diet--added to another 25% of ground/minced meats. These meat patties represent much of what BARF is all about, so much so that Billinghurst became involved in producing, selling and promoting NOT species appropriate raw foods but rather Inappropriate vegetables along with ground meats. No bones.

 

The other 50% of the diet he fills with what he CALLS raw meaty bones but in practice are generally meatless edible bones that offer in total isolation the calcium missing in the 50/50 meat and veggies patties. He also endorses the questionable practice of offering bare bones (including dangerous femurs, knuckles and other weight bearing bones) for recreation.

 

Additionally, he recommends supplemental cod liver oil, kelp, and alfalfa, at the least. I assume these are recommended to meet menu deficiencies. In his first book he also suggests oddly inappropriate meals like beans, or milk. Fortunately, I think his later book ditches this weird notion.

 

What whole prey model offers to dogs is appropriate food items in shapes and sizes that as much as possible resemble appropriate naturally occurring foods. Nothing ground except of necessity, no bones without scads of glorious meat on them, no processed foods (including vegetables). No grains, no legumes, no dairy. No bare bones for recreation, but rahter meaty bones that function as meal and entertainment at the same time. No supplements unless specific health issues require specific treatment.

 

Prey model feeding attempts to emulate the ratios found in natural prey: on average 10% of a carcass is organs, on average 10%-15% of a carcass is edible bone, and the rest of it is meat (including hair, skin, cartilage, sinew, hooves, etc.)

 

So the actual food is different; and those elements are occur in both interpretations of raw diets are offered in different sizes and shapes. The BARF diet is fairly labor-intensive for the human and is rarely labor-intensive for the dog. The prey model idea is as close to whole carcass as is possible, with as much of the labor as possible being done BY the dog.

 

Chris O

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Originally posted by Miztiki:

Folks, Chris knows ALOT more than me about raw, so anything he (or she?) recommends or advises against can pretty much be trusted.

*******************

Yeah, but Miztiki has GOT IT DOWN! She's awesome. A seriously smart cookie, here.

 

Certainly there are choices that I will recommend over other choices, in which case you pays your money and you takes your choice; but with regard to the nuts and bolts and anatomy and stuff like that, I really try not to screw it up.

 

Chris(tina) O.

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Tumblehome; Thank for the input on the

Billinghurst approach.

Actually I was not that familiar with it.

From the information I am getting here I would have to say that I am more a Prey model feeder.

and as for parasitic presense I always have my Venison tested,its a small cost for the amount of food that one of our average corn fed Whitetails produce.

as for the wild turkey I take,well I have always inspected them myself for any signs of disease.

and then handle them as i would any bird carcass as I to eat from my kills.

Should I be more concerned about any potential problems that could come from the Wild Turkey?

I generally hunt them in the spring and Fall after our first couple hard freezes.

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IronHorse wrote:

as for parasitic presense I always have my Venison tested,its a small cost for the amount of food that one of our average corn fed Whitetails produce.

as for the wild turkey I take,well I have always inspected them myself for any signs of disease.

and then handle them as i would any bird carcass as I to eat from my kills.

Should I be more concerned about any potential problems that could come from the Wild Turkey?

I generally hunt them in the spring and Fall after our first couple hard freezes.

*******************

IMO the precautions you take seem reasonable enough...it's my choice to deep freeze all wild game (dedicated freezer, not the top of a fridge, as if a carcass could fit into the top of a fridge) for a month to kill parasites. Personal knowledge of the terrain is always a huge advantage!

 

I expect you're on good terms with your local F&G guys, you could ask them if there are any special parasites to watch out for.

 

I don't know if CWD affects deer in your area, but from everything I've read about wolves, CWD does NOT affect wolves/dogs. In fact, there's some evidence that wolves preying on affected deer help keep the incidence of CWD down. And without the wolves, the CWD numbers go way up.

 

Chris Ostrowski

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We do the same as far as deep freezing all our wild game in dedicated freezer, Between my wife and I we normally take an average of 6 whitetail a year for our dogs and our own use.Depending on our assessment of the herd we allow a limited number of respectful hunters to also bow hunt.

We do not allow trophy hunting(we believe that the healthy dominant breeding stock should stay where it belongs,in the woods, not on a wall)

We have managed our property in this fasion since 1989 and have a very healthy vigorious and stable Whitetail herd that averages a dozen harvasted animals per year.

As for the presense of CWD in Missouri I am proud to say that the MDC has a very aggressive testing program that has been in place for a number of years and with thousands of carcasses tested randomly across the state as of last year we have no reported cases. Another positive note IMO is that due to Missouri's large whitetail and turkey populations we are seeing a resurgence of the Cougar population. The MDC may not be a perfect agency but personally I believe we have one of the finest Consevation Depts in the Country.So with continued good management I belive our family will continue to be blessed with a good supply of meat from our own backyard. Although I do prefer my venison passed through the fire abit more then the Border Collies think it should be.As for the Turkeys,well since I have discovered the effects of deepfat frying Wild Turkeys the Border Collies have to settle for thiers on special occasions.

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After all my worrying about feeding Rae liver, she started spitting it out and not eating it anyhow. Any suggestions? I've been letting one of the other dogs clean up after her.

Renee

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Not addressed to anyone in general, but I typically feed my girls in their crates. I do put their food in their bowls, but they drag it out anyway. I pull any crate pads out, and they eat on their crate floor (pull out plastic pans). When they're finished I kick em out, and then wipe the floors and a little of the bars with Clorox Kitchen Wipes. I let it air dry (usually more than that, about 30 mins to an hour), and then I come back and wipe down with some warm water, and let it air dry. I try to get rid of the bacteria, and then get rid of the chemicals for good measure.

 

Miztiki, do you feed once or twice a day? Do you feed both dogs at the same time in the back yard??

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Freeze and/or cut up and/or lightly sear liver. Ever had to get accustomed to a new food? Small increments.

 

Laura, usually once a day but may feed a dozen times a day if I'm using the food for training. Usually I feed Boy outside first, then Fynne, but for gorge meals I'll feed them both outside at the same time since they each have their own hunk to worry about and will leave eachother alone.

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I have been reading two books on raw so far. One is Raw Meaty Bones promote Health and the other is a good read, written by someone who feeds raw, but not a vet or specialist. It is called: "Raw Dog Food: Make it easy for you and your dog".

 

Can anyone recommend a book that does a good job of discussing nutrition and ratios without going into chapters of how evil dog food manufacturers are or how to become an activist? I just want to find out the best method to feed my dog, not a lecture on how Alpo is horrible - I have already moved beyond that.

 

Thanks

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She actually does get it cut up in small pieces. Come to think of it though the times she's turned her nose up at it has been when it's thawed. (she gets it frozen or thawed depending on when I remember to put in in the fridge from the freezer. Thanks

Renee

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OK folks, I was feeding raw for about 6 years with 4-5 dogs ranging from mini LH dachshund to border collies to lab to golden retrv. -- all without incident. Then the week before last, my 1 y.o BC pup came down with HGE (hemorrhageaic gastroenteritis) and was critical for a few days. You can imagine what my vets all said -- dietary "indiscretion" -- well, actually I had fed her those chicken backs on purpose. Oy.

 

I've been feeding raw, rotating among whole chicken backs and various Bravo ground mixes for years. On Monday I fed backs. On Tuesday I fed Bravo ground beef/veggie mix and Kate only ate 1/2 her meal. Then threw up later in the evening. I didn't think much of it. Wed AM she was clearly lethargic and not herself. Threw up a couple of times. I brought her to my vet (who had broken her ankle two days before having been sideswiped by a sheep). She was dehydrated with a 105 fever (Kate, not the vet). Xrays showed bones in her lower digestive tract, but scattered along the length -- not a bolus indicative of an obstruction. Still, those bones had clearly gotten past her stomach. They got the fever down and hydrated her, but didn't have facilities for 24 hr care so I brough her home.

 

By Thurs AM she had deteriorated again and threw up what little water she had been able to drink, so I rushed her to a 24 hr vet. Xray that morning was clear -- no bones. But her fever was up again and she was dehydrated. She went on IVs again and heavy duty antibiotics and it was 3 days before I could bring her home. Now she's right as rain. The vets admitted that while they were tending to think this was due to bones/ and/or raw, it could have been due to her eating sheep poop during training just as easily.

 

So here's the problem.... If I had lost her I would have died. I can't bring myself to feed raw, but hate the idea of kibble and, not surprisingly, none of my 6 dogs is doing particularly well on it. It was much easier switching them (including Kate at 7 weeks old and two adults I recently acquired) to raw than from raw back to kibble. I have a freezer full of beautiful chicken backs and some Bravo. Compared to kibble, it seems like such a pure way to feed. But I just cannot bring myself to do it.

 

I'm beside myself. I'd love to hear what you guys think. Also, if there is a vet on these boards, I would be very curious to hear her/his take on all this. What should I do???? I'm losing sleep on this (not to mention the GI distress all the dogs seem to be in now -- tho nothing like Ms Kate had).

 

thanks

 

Pat

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Is it possible that she had a virus instead?

 

My Delta, came down with a high fever out of the blue (106), along with dehydration and she was on kibble at the time. After a $500.00 emergency bill the vet had no answers as to why she was sick. I feel strongly that had I been feeding her raw, they would have blamed the bones. In short, I think that if there are bones in the stomach and there is no blockage, vets still have a tendency to blame the bones.

 

What many of us feed here is Raw based on the whole prey model diet. It contains way more meat than feeding via Billinghurst's methods. Some meals can be simply all meat with very little bone. Like a pork shoulder. IMO feeding meals largely based on meat can further decrease stomach irritation as the stomach contents are padded by the high meat content meals. I used to feed via the Billinghurst method and only after reading both books he had available at the time. I read Tom Lonsdale's Raw Meaty Bones before I started prey model feeding as well. I don't even buy chicken backs anymore and only feed pork necks on occasion when I can find them that they are not completely stripped of meat. I feed the whole chicken instead!

 

Pat, consider this method of feeding as an alternative. It is possible that the backs caused irritation and if thawed outside of the fridge introduced bacteria that led to the fever. Something that had your dog eaten a hunk of meat instead, might not have happened. Or it's possible that your dog got a nasty bug from somewhere else and the backs had nothing to do with it.

 

There is a yahoo group called Raw Feeding. There is a vet there who I believe feeds raw. It's a great resource for information.

 

For the poster that wants a book with just feeding guidelines and not the reasons why, I haven't found one. I just skim over the parts I already know and proceed to the "meat" of the subject.

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Thanks Annette. I did just join that Yahoo group. What you say makes a lot of sense. I can't believe how hard it is to switch them back to kibble. I need to "digest" this a little more before I start raw again, but I hope you (all) don't mind if I turn to you for advice and support.

 

Pat... and Kate who is turning one year old tomorrow!

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Annette,

Have you ever had concerns or problems when feeding something such as a pork shoulder that has way more meat than bone? I mean in terms of maintaining a good calcium to phosphorus ratio? I hope this isn't a really dumb question, but I'm a bit confused about that. I saw a pork shoulder reasonably priced at the store the other day, but didn't know if that would be way too much meat.

Renee

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Renee,

 

The answer is no. I'm currently looking for more complete (scientific) answer as to why, for you. In short if you feed an average bone content of 10 to 15% there is no worry. I also think it has something to do with the density of the edible bone. For example, pork hocks have an edible bone with more density. Since the foods we feed on average have a higher bone content than 15% feeding a pork shoulder generally isn't a problem. Also, in nature, canines will eat way more meat off large hooved animals than they will bone - so the typical Billinghurst answer of a chicken wing providing the optimum nutrition in regards to the Ca : Ph doesn't hold true. The whole chicken, feet, head, innards etc, is more optimum in nutritional value than just the wing alone. By the same token, so is the whole pig. So you try to average it out over time. The idea of this feeding is to try to feed good hunks of meat over edible bone and add offal or feed the entire animal whenever possible. I feed my kids 1/2 a whole chicken every 2 or 3 days with light meals or fasting inbetween. Light meals sometimes enclude pork necks (very bony less so than chicken backs tho- but I'll follow up the next day with a high meat content meal, like pork shoulder), turkey necks, pork hock, whole eggs, etc.

 

I'll see if my gurus have a better answer for you still though.

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Hi Pat,

 

When my dog almost two years ago began showing similar symptoms (fever, loss of appetite, vomitting, lethargy, stiffness, whacky blood tests) my vet screeched "raw diet! bones! raw diet!" at me even WITHOUT the benefit of x-rays. Had he seen a bone on an x-ray I am sure he would have had been in his glory. He HATES raw.

 

Turns out, my dog had contracted Leptospirosis. After a course of IV fluids and heavy duty antibiotics, he recovered just fine.

 

It seems to me that abitbiotics would not have any effect on an impaction due to bones. While a bacterial agent could be a suspect, the only person I know with a dog that contracted salmonella fed kibble.

 

Just a thought.

 

RDM

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