Whole prey model Q&A

[Borderco1]

Miztiki, thanks for the suggestion! I will give it a try this weekend and report back. I will do more looking on the cod liver oil, although if I can get fish into his diet I would more than likely scrape the whole extra oil thing altogether. I hope you have a wondeerful time in NC, sounds like you all will have a blast!

 

My opinion on the veggies is that Jack hasn't had anything except meat, organs, and bones for four months. He has been to the vet twice both times getting two paws up (he has had his blood work done in that time as well). I haven't seen him eating my backyard plants for nurishment so I just leave them out.

[BigD]

OK...questions:

 

Now keep in mind that I'm all for this raw thing. But I have questions about some reasoning behind some things.

 

1. Why do raw folks state "all kibble is crap." Not ALL kibble is crap. Most is, but not all. And for those folks out there that feed Purina, you won't be getting them to go out and switch to raw if they can't find the time to research their kibble.

 

2. Why do Raw feeders feel the need to justify the feeding of raw "beacause dogs are carnivores." My dog may have been a "carnivore" 50+ years ago. But these breeds are not carnivores. If you had a wolf cub that you were raising from the wild, then I would agree. Yes, it is a "carnivore." But these dogs are domesticated and there must be something to say about the fact that years of breeding for certain things and feeding certain things that it can and will change the digestive track? I can see saying that feeding raw does X, Y and Z. (skin, teeth, allergy, etc) But not "he's a carnivore and that's what they feed animals at the zoo." Your dog is not in the zoo.

 

3. Alaskan breeds raised with the Inuit were fed mostly fish from what I understand. (with a sprinkle of caribou or reindeer, etc) Is there any study or reference to a raw diet based heavily on fish only?

 

4. Food safety....are you getting your meet from previously frozen sources? If so, are there any concerns that you have that this meet may not have been frozen the whole time? What about Salmonella? Yes I know that dogs have some better juices to take care of it. But what about the salmonella that's in the yard that my nephew may crawl through on his way to play in the grass? Or the salmonella that's on their paws which they then place on my nephew or that my nephew grabs? There is SUCH a huge "clean your kitchen counter after contact with chicken!" that I can't see how that wouldn't apply to any other location that they chicken sits in. Especially for 2 hours or so. What are the precautions you guys take and what solutions can you offer to this dilema?

 

5. Cattle, chickens, etc are fed hormones, drugs, etc. Pretty nasty stuff. Other than going organic, what can you do to make sure these "additives" do not harm your dog?

 

6. By 2 to 3% of ideal body weight - is that per day? So a 50lb dog would get 1 lb of stuff per day? If that's true, how do you work out the gorge meal? Do you base your amounts on a weekly tally?

 

7. I have heard that BARFers feel that the meat that a dog would eat in the wild (if it was free to revert back to carnivore status) would be the meat of animals that eat meat and veggies. Thus, if a pack of dogs took down a wild horse, they would be getting the benefits of the grass, berries, etc that the horse ate. (and we all know that cattle and chickens are not allowed to graze on fresh grass, etc today) By not including these vitamins, etc in an all meat diet, you can be denying your dog much need nutrients. How then, do you insure that your dog gets these vitamins, Omega-3, etc? What supplements do you use?

 

I think that's all I've got now. Trust me, I want to feed raw, but I'm limited in what's fresh here. Everything is shipped to Hawaii and costs a fortune and is NOT fresh. I've been wanting to do a fish based raw diet but I've not found anyone or any study on how that could affect a dog. I would not have a problem with getting the dogs to eat the fish, oh no! And I know it's fresh and I know it's cheap. But I don't know how some of the levels of mercury, etc would affect them. My husband is all for raw as well, but most of these questions are from him so we will both be reading the responses.

 

Thanks!!! Sorry so long!

 

Denise

[Miztiki]

Chicken backs are just the spine, hardly any meat at all, about 2-3 inches long. Probably sold in stores for flavoring stock or broth but not sure. Not always easy to find so when you do find them, buy a few pounds worth, package up and freeze. They will last a long time (months).

 

 

And here's a day or two old raw poop.

 

 

The composition of the poop will help you gauge how to feed your dog. If too soft, add more bone. If too dry/hard, use less bone. Bone fragments? Dog's not producing enough stomach acid, so slow him down while he's eating. Etc.

[Kitch]

Miz, you are AWESOME!! Thanks!

[Miztiki]

I can't answer some of your questions but I'll try to answer the others.

 

1. All kibble is crap (inferior) compared to raw IMO, even the best super premium kibble. Pick the best kibble you can find that you think is as good or better than raw and I'll show you why it's not.

 

2. If you dissect a wolf and a domestic dog and compare the digestive system, you will find that they are the same. Years of deliberate breeding have not changed the basic structure of the modern dog's guts. It would take thousands and thousands of years to do that I think. If you compare the PH level of living dogs versus living wolves, you'll find the same levels. There are studies I have read concerning the digestion of non-meat foods in domestic dogs but it would take me some time to find them since I didn't save them.

 

3. I don't know. I went to Galveston recently and found a fresh fish market. The guy working there said he used to feed his dog fish almost exclusively but had to stop because the dog wasn't doing well on it. I also read here on the boards recently that there's something called flukes (a parasite) in crustaceans that can invade a dog's lungs. Don't think those are in fish though.

 

4. Don't know. I just did a little research into the dangers of salmonella late last night. Here's a link you might find interesting. I fell asleep after I read it, so haven't gotten further in my research yet.

 

5. Don't know, other than going organic.

 

6. 2%-3% balanced over time. If your dog should get 1 lb a day, then it should average out to 7 lbs a week or so, with the dog eating more than 1 lb on some days and less than 1 lb on other days. If the dog is getting a little chunky, cut back - if getting a little thin, feed more.

 

7. I can't answer this question in a way that would satisfy you (or myself), so you should ask the raw list. With Boy, I can't feed him carrots or potatoes or stuff like that because he's allergic to it, so there's not much I can do about it anyway. Horses eat grass but their bodies turn it into other stuff, so the meat of a horse is just as meaty as the meat of a lion (pure carnivore). I've read arguments about it but can't explain it in a way that is knowledgeable.

 

I can say that I supplement my dog's diets with fish body oil in gelcap form. One every day.

 

If you do find the answers to those other questions, would you please post them here for our benefit?

 

I can imagine it would be difficult to feed raw in Hawaii. If it's not practical, do the best you can with the best kibble you can find.

 

p.s. Horses don't eat meat, but I know what you are saying.

[BigD]

Did I say horses eat meat? Oh crap...I did. haha. Duh! I know. I used to own 3 of the buggers and I know what they eat (and how much it freaking costs! yikes!).

 

I looked at that link on Salmonella. Seems they say 1) raw food should be tossed after it's been out for a few hours. And 2) all surfaces should be washed with hot water.

 

So that leads me to ask: 1. How long do you let Boy work on a whole chicken before you put it back in the freezer? And 2. Does that mean my dogs need a hot water bath after every meal? Do I need to hose down the yard with hot water? :grr: It seems to be a bit risky when little ones are involved and when you like to cuddle with your dogs. Too much!!!

 

Miztiki and others, I'd like to know your thoughts on the following:

 

The Honest Kitchen

 

I've been tossing this around for a while now and I'm curious what you die-hards think about it.

 

Denise

[border_collie_crazy]

yes I am the one who is a BARFer, the idea behind the veggies in BARF is to represent the veggies the animals in the wilde would have digested, green trip gives exactly the same effect though with prey model for example chiekn is fedd WHOLE, with BARF we only feed parts of the chicken or whatever, like chicken legs or something, we never give the whole thing, so they dont get the digested inerds from the food, that is why we pulp veggies and mix with organ meats. it is the same idea as prey model just a differnt approach to it.

 

 

I hope I got that right lol prey model is giving the whole thing innerds and all correct?

[Miztiki]

It's hot here and the meat gets flies/maggots kinda quick, so I let them work on a hunk of meat for maybe 1/2 hour or so. Even gorge meals can be eaten in that time usually. Otherwise I hose the maggots off and stick it back in the fridge/freezer, then give it back later.

 

If you do a google search, you'll find that salmonella is probably around your house now. Even kibble has some salmonella from what I've read. I need to do more research on salmonella though. If you find any good links, please share.

 

You could feed in the tub, then just scrub it down and turn the hot shower on to rinse it away.

 

If I lived in Hawaii and raw was difficult/expensive/impractical, then no, I would not get Honest Kitchen. It's not really different than kibble from what I can see, needs rehydration, and is more expensive. I would probably buy cans of the best quality (mostly meat, few preservatives, etc.) dog food I could find and feed that, maybe with a little bone like chicken backs to firm up the stools.

 

Shayna, yes, the entire animal, if possible, is the most nutritionally balanced.

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

Actually, prey modellers research, based after wild canid diet- suggests that the stomach contents of large hooved animals are not really desired by the wild canids and unless their pack is very large they will leave them (the pulpy contents). Also the research suggests that dogs are built to eat mainly large hooved creatures and only smaller animals like poultry and rodents if large hooved animals are scarce. Feeding the whole chicken means as it's packaged in the store unless you can get them live an butcher them yourself. So veggies are not represented in any form in the prey model.

 

Regarding feeding raw and treated animals in regards to anitbiotics. It is what we eat, no?

It is not necessarily the best for us either but sometimes we feed ourselves what we can afford. I buy only free range fed eggs because we eat alot of them.

 

Kibble is bad because:

#1 It's cooked and vitimins have to be added because the cooking process (applying heat to food) breaks down the nutrients. Animal fat is actually chemically transformed into a toxin when heat is applied to it.

 

#2 Any kibble containing any type of meal or by product is in fact rendered material. Rendered material contains toxins- not to get into just how awful meat by products are- but lamb meal contains lambs that are euthanized as well as slaughtered, just like cow or beef meal, ("meat" means any meat, including roadkill, horse, cat & dog) and the narcotic (sodium pentobarbitol)used to euthanize these animals is not broken down by the heat of the rendering process.

 

Granted that most sheep and cows are not euthanized, they are either slaughtered or picked up by rendering companies if they fall over dead in the field. So this meal will probably contain less toxin. Versus meat by products that are made up largely of horse, cat & dog, & roadkill.

 

There is a withdrawl period that an animal that is on anitbiotics must go through before they can be slaughtered- for our safety and health (whatever).

The point of this is that animals that fall over dead and are used wholly for rendering contain more antibiotic than those that have been through a withdrawl period.

 

So meals are much better than by-products but I wouldn't eat them, so the dogs don't either.

 

I'd rather buy the stuff I wouldn't eat from the grocery store- ham hocks, necks, cow tongue, pig feet, chicken & turkey neck. And whole chickens are cheaper than wings or quarters anyway. I feed roughly 6 chickens a week to my crew of 4 with lighter meals (more bony with either eggs or gizzards, cow liver, etc).

 

We are just getting started with the prey model so I'm adding moderate gorge meals every two days of chicken, which I find is easier to digest than lots of red meat while giving them a chance to revert to proper digestion versus the digestion on kibble. My flatulant one is no longer flatulant by the way. I will be adding way more red meat as they get used to eating this way.

 

Incidentally, my sheltie, who I raised from a puppy on BARF 5 years ago is taking to eating a carcass bigger than his head like a duck to water.

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

Oh on the salmonella!

 

I feed my kids in their crates and then afterward I wipe up with clorox clean up. The same thing I use for my counters when I cook. I have Tom Lonsdale's Raw Meaty Bones here, had the thing for 2 years and just now switching over to the diet- so I'll look up what he says about salmonella on dogs.

[kajarrel]

lamb meal contains lambs that are euthanized

Trust me, most lambs, cows, etc. that are euthanized have "lead" in them, not pentobarb.

 

Kim

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

I guess so!

 

I suppose the main concern is pet horses who see vets are euthanized much like dogs and cats and are picked up versus buried- turning into meat by product.

[BigD]

Thanks Annette -

 

I'm worried about the salmonella that is on the dogs. From pawing it, holding it, etc. Not sure how long salmonella can last (but the article Miztiki posted said to stay away from "raw" poop as it can be found in feces of a dog that eats raw and ate something with salmonella in it.

 

For the Honest Kitchen stuff - they say their foods are NOT dehydrated with intense heat. So, wouldn't that make a difference? I think some folks here make their own treats this way by putting meat in the oven on low heat for a few hours, correct?

 

If you had to choose between Solid Gold Hund - n - Flocken (lamb) Which does have lamb "meal" listed as ingrediant #2 next to Lamb - and Honest Kitchen, which may or may not get supplemented with a chicken back now and again, which would you guys pick?

 

That honest kitchen stuff is quite pricey too. yikes.

 

Would love to know what you guys think...

 

Denise

[Miztiki]

Solid Gold.

 

For the price of the HK, pound for pound, you might as well ship in raw meat, right?

[IronHorse]

I am abit confused after reading this thread.

I concider myself a Barf diet feeder,but I define the term BARF as "Biologically Appropriate Raw Food"

I do not go out of my way to supply veggie material in my dogs diets but if they scarf up the occasional carrot or piece of fruit I certainly don't see it as a negative influence.

I am blessed with an abudance of wildlife on my property and being surrounded by thousands of acres of woodlot and row crop combined the deer and turkey are basically corn fed, so along with a ready supply of venison and turkey and a wife who manages a grocery store with a butcher I concider our dogs to have about as good a diet as can be provided.so my confusion is whats the difference between whole prey and BARF?

Some of you may find this site interesting;

http://www.barfworld.com/

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

Dr. Tom Lonsdale's take on Salmonella: in a nutshell cause I can't retype the whole two pages.

 

Studies show that the incidence of Salmonella and Campylobacter is 79% (63% Campylobacter and 16% Salmonella. With this level of contamination it is best to assume that all raw chicken is affected. Pork & Beef can also be a sourse of infection so exercise caution when handling raw meat. Clean all surfaces, utensil and hands afterward. Do not allow your children to put their hand in their mouths after handling the family pet or it's food.

 

Then he goes on to cover other nasties like Toxoplasmosis

[IronHorse]

BigD;

Not sure how many people are aware of this but the largest cattle ranch in the USA is located on the island of Maui.

I wonder if they ship all those cows off island alive or butcher them there?

And what about all the feral pigs and goats that are such a problem? I would think that would make for some mighty fine dog food.

[BigD]

No goats on my island...unless you count some of the locals! oh boy! (sorry) We've got pigs, but not enough to be able to buy them and I'm not a huntress.

 

Largest cattle ranch is on the Big Island, isn't it? Parker Ranch in Waimea. (Way more up-country grazing land can be found on the Big Island...) At least, that's what I've been told. From what I know, they raise Angus and the fancy-schmancy cuts go to the fruu-fruu restaurants here. (You can buy a "Big Island Beef Hamburger here for $12!) The run of the mill stuff found in the good old grocery store is "previously frozen." I do know of one cattle farmer on Oahu that does sell his beef, but at a very, very, very high price. (Fresh meat is rare and hard to find here - as you can see - and so they charge a premium for it. Fresh fish on the other hand - and DAMN good fish too - is dirt cheap and very easy to grab. I could head down to the morning fish market and bag me a full size Ahi Tuna for Pennies on the pound!)

 

Oh and bite your tounge - those feral pigs are NOT for dogs! That's what's tossed into the Imu! Ever been to a luau? Yummy!!! My dogs can eat kibble before they are getting their paws on luau piggy!

 

Denise

[IronHorse]

hmm perhaps we should look into you shipping me some Ahi and me shipping you some beef?

and yea I had my islands mixed up,your right about the Parker Ranch.

I figured they sold their beef high.

can probably buy Kobe beef for not much more then Hawaiian beef.

[BigD]

Yum! Kobe beef...dang it, now I'm super hungry. Just tried to get away with eating a mango off our tree for dinner...but you had to go and bring up Kobe beef!

 

Going to go eat something that's bad for me now...thanks!

 

Denise

[Pipedream Farm]

Thanks for the informative reading. I've had Rae on raw for about a month now. She has a stamina/overheating problem and it was suggested to me to try this by a friend to see if it would help. (She was at the vet for a full checkup first to see if she had a valid medical reason for her problem --her bloodwork, etc. was all normal.) I honestly can't say I'm particularly worried about salmonella, etc. I handle raw food every day cooking for myself so that just didn't really freak me out. I have changed to feeding outside for ease of cleanup though. What really has been creeping me out lately is thinking about potential parasites in the food, particularly tapeworm cysts. The meat I get is USDA inspected --even my own lamb that I have butchered. I'm just having a hard time not worrying about it. She is tolerating the new diet well, I'm just a ninny about getting used to it I guess.

[donna frankland (uk)]

way to go miz! i havent looked on here for a few days and suddenly the world has gone raw food crazy! hurrah!

love

donna

[Kitch]

I gave Dublin some more turkey neck last night and I love how happy he is gnawing on it - I can see how it will reduce the need for pet store booda bones. (I am really glad I have a ditigal camera, because I took a bunch of pics last night of him eating - lord only knows what the photo people would have thought it I had to develop film! )

 

Does it really help their breath though? Dublin never had doggy breath, for which I was very grateful, but after his meal last night, his breath was really stinky! I hope this isn't always the case...?

 

BTW, I have discovered that while tripe, turkey necks, beef necks, etc don't bother me, handing pig's feet really freaks me out... :eek:

[Woodenlion]

Mark, Ninny? I doubt it.

 

I fed the dogs farm raised fish for the first time last night. Honey just stared at it and Cocoa peeled the skin off and then proceeded to carry it around for a half an hour. I finally took it, cut it up and hand fed them. The tail was a bit much. Much to my surprise even my toothless cat got in on it. I have to admit I am spraying the counters and washing my hands with bleach constantly now. It's weird being so focused on meat.

 

Toni

 

Toni

[Kitch]

I forgot to add - I found out their is a farmer's co-op near where I work, where I can get the 'interesting' organs and stuff if I order ahead - have to see how expensive it is first, though - I really need to get a handle on my spending...