Whole prey model Q&A

[laurie etc]

I think the jury is still out. I know people who feed "straight prey model" and swear by it. I also know people who feed more of a balanced meat/bone/veggie diet, with supplements galore. They swear by that. I think you feed what works for your dog (or dogs), and also what works for your budget. If I had 2 dogs instead of eight to feed, I'd being buying much more variety and nicer cuts of human grade meaty-meat for them. As it is, I alternate between chicken backs (69 cents/pound), turkey necks (89 cents/pound) Bravo ground lamb/beef/chicken or turkey w/some veggies and bone (85 cents-$1.35 per pound), veal neck bones (99 cents/pound) ground green tripe ($1.35/pound). I swore I would never feed grains again, but I started using some oatmeal in the mornings (cheap), and my dogs are tolerating it well and gaining the needed weight on it without breaking my budget. I feed humans grade salmon/fish oil capsules every day. My dogs each get a preventative Glucosamine/Chondroitine/MSM tablet daily. I also put my left over various fresh veggies in a food processor and freeze them in gallon bags to add occasionally.

My problem with feeding straight prey model is that from my research, wolves are really opportunistic omnivores - not strict carnivores. And even if they could hunt and kill all they wanted without ever touching a veggy (or carion), I bet the prey they would survive on is much leaner (grass/prairie fed) and has a much higher bone-meat ratio than meat cuts we buy in the grocery store store.

When I worked with a pack of hunting foxhounds, they ate strictly the "donated" freshly killed carcasses of cows, horses, sheep, whatever was brought to the hunt kennels to be put down. The kennelman would skin the animals out and hang them in a cooler. Not usually fleshy, young animals- but old, skinny ones. The hounds were supplemented with chicken backs and kibble in the scarce periods. They were one of the top hunting pack of foxhounds in Virginia for years, and looked wonderful.

 

Mark/Renee, I order wholesale Bravo products for a co-op group in the Leesburg-West VA area - I put the whole order on my CC, and everyone just pays their portion when they pick it up- it's delivered to A Click Above. No mark-up, and everyone can order whatever they want. We split up the shipping depending on how much you order (it usually runs about 15-17 cents/pound). If you want to join, I'll be placing an order next week. Email me privately and I'll fill you in more.

[Pat Warne]

Hi folks,

 

There is kind of a parallel thread under "raw food" here and I've just posted there, too. That post was re my 1 y.o. Kate who was critical with with HGE two weeks ago (doing fine now). Similar to RDM, the vets all had a field day of course. :confused:

 

Thanks to Laurie for her post. This is more like what I was feeding. My source for backs was 39 cents/lb so it's hard to forego that. But I will. I'll try to find quarters and whole chickens on sale, etc. I see the point of increasing the ratio of muscle meat to bone and doing whole foods as often as possible for many reasons. I'll still probably feed Bravo, too -- it has a lot to offer in terms of convenience and is still much much better than kibble. I have two distributors near me with whom I don't want to compete or I'd do what you do, which is basically become a distributor. I think you need to order 500 lbs at a time to qualify for their distributor rates. I don't have the freezer space right now, but with 6 dogs, should probably consider it.

 

I am also going to add some probiotics and tripe; which I hadn't been doing.

 

Six dogs presents a challenge for me, not only in terms of money, but also in the logistics of giving them all their shot at working whole food slowly without causing any fights. I think they eat faster than I'd like because there is some competition going on (tho I try to feed them spatially dispersed, if you know what I mean). Two are retrievers and it's amazing how desperate they get for food no matter how much you feed them

 

Pat and Miss Kate -- who made it through her first year as of yesterday!!

[Cody's pop]

I'm on my second week of Raw with my Cody Blue,and he is definately looking much better already,the hair loss,skin irritation and itching I thought was mange is practically gone now and his coat seems to be thickening back up.I've been feeding him Turkey drumsticks I got for .69 per lb. and some beef rib tips I picked up for .99 per lb.,along with some chicken livers and an omega-3 supplement.Anyone feed Bil-Jac? I used this food as a treat when he was puppy training and he loved it.I seem to remember it being a meat food rather than a grain product.Is it ok to feed?

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

It is fairly heavy in corn product, a very common allergen in dog. It's also high in molases which is pure sugar for dogs and can contribute to diabetes and pancreatitis.

[tumblehome]

Originally posted by laurie etc:

I know people who feed "straight prey model" and swear by it. I also know people who feed more of a balanced meat/bone/veggie diet, with supplements galore.

**********

Without question, whatever way of feeding one chooses, it's better to be behind it 100%! Feeding whatever and not feeling comfortable with what you're doing is just counterproductive.

 

But the way you describe "more of a balanced" diet with "supplements galore" sort of nicely sums up the core difference between feeding naturally and not feeding naturally. The closer one feeds to how it comes with the critter (regardless of how odd-looking the "critter" may be at the end of a month) the less important supplements galore are--because over a period of time, the elements of a "carcass" provide all the vits/mins the carcass-eater requires.

 

Supplementing is essential when one ignores the basic relationship of body parts to the whole; if one disregards the relationship of skeletal bone to edible bone (big difference in some prey animals!); if one chooses to reinterpret the anatomy and physiology of our dogs. So supplementing to a lesser or greater degree often is required to fill in the blanks left by inappropriate food.

 

Which is why supps like Missing Link and Nupro are often recommended for kibblefed dogs...they attempt to close the gap between kibblized nutrition and the "real thing."

Chris O

 

And a bit more...

Originally posted by laurie etc:

My problem with feeding straight prey model is that from my research, wolves are really opportunistic omnivores - not strict carnivores.

**********

Wolves are omniovorous carnivores. From a strict standpoint, their anatomy, their physiology, their dentition, their digestive system (including bacteria and enzymes) are that which defines a carnivore. They scavenge to get by and they'll eat whatever was, is, and may be at some point edible. But "get by" does not equal optimal. A wolf in a generous niche may never need anything more than elk and deer. A wolf in less advantageous circumstances will eat to survive. Because a wolf CAN injest grains and fruits and domesticated vegetables doesn't mean it derives maximum nutrition from them.

 

If there is any one animal that truly is not a strict carnivore, that would be the giant panda. It is digestively a carnivore, but dentally it has an omnivore's grinding molars. A wolf, however, is a carnivore.

 

 

I bet the prey they would survive on is much leaner (grass/prairie fed) and has a much higher bone-meat ratio than meat cuts we buy in the grocery store store.

**********

The meat/bone ratio as is generally suggested is not based solely on domesticated prey. It is based at the high end (25%) on elephants; at the low end 8%) on mice. The logical range of 10% to 20% is derived from tamer critters, but again, that includes prey like rabbit and goat, which are not fatty.

 

Plus wild prey in flush times can be quite padded with fatty meat. As with anything wild though, there are fat times and there are lean times. Which is why variety is important...some meaty bones, some not-so, some meals with no bones at all. It all works out.

Chris O