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question about the DNA test for CEA


Eileen Stein
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I've received an email questioning whether the the DNA test for CEA might find a dog to be affected even though an ophthalmologist had previously examined the dog and found no evidence of CEA. The answer is yes.

 

Before going into an explanation, let's clarify our terminology a little bit. CEA is a recessive disease caused by a single gene (although the severity of the disease in a particular individual is affected by other genes). So the test looks at the locus (site) of this gene to see which of two variations (alleles) of the gene is there. (Remember that genes come in pairs -- one from mother and one from father -- so there will be two alleles at that site.) If both alleles are normal, the dog is classified as NORMAL, which means that it cannot contribute any CEA genes to its offspring. (This in turn means that its pups will not have the disease, although they may carry a gene for the disease that they got from their other parent.) If both alleles are the CEA mutation, the dog is classified as AFFECTED, which means that it will contribute CEA genes to any offspring it might have. (This in turn means that its pups will carry at least one CEA gene, and possibly two if they get one from their other parent.) If one allele is normal and one allele is the CEA mutation, the dog is classified as a CARRIER, which means that it may or may not contribute CEA genes to any offspring it might have -- it will only be contributing one gene, and it might be the normal one or it might be the mutant one.

 

NORMALs and CARRIERS do not have any symptoms of the disease and never will -- they do not have the disease, period. But they differ in that NORMALS cannot pass on the disease to their offspring, whereas CARRIERs can, depending on who they are bred to. AFFECTEDs do have the disease, but their symptoms -- how they display the disease -- can vary enormously, from no functional visual impairment right up to total blindness.

 

There is no possible way for a veterinary ophthalmologist to tell, by looking at the eye in a clinical examination, whether a dog is a carrier or a normal. They both look the same. Thus, the greatest advantage of the DNA test is that it enables us to know which dogs with normal-looking eyes are genetically normal and which are carriers of the disease.

 

That would be the only advantage of the test if all breeders followed the recommendation to have their pups' eyes tested before the age of 12 weeks. The reason testing at such an early age has long been recommended is because at that stage of eye development a competent canine ophthalmologist can tell by looking at the eyes which pups are AFFECTED and which are not affected (i.e., are either NORMAL or CARRIERS). Therefore, if a pup is examined at that age and shows no sign of being affected, it is safe to conclude that it is not (and never will be) AFFECTED.

 

However, after that age changes occur in the routine development of the eye which can make it harder or even impossible, in some cases, to discern from an optical examination whether the dog is affected or not. Dogs in whom the characteristics of CEA become so masked as they get older that the ophthalmologist is unable to detect them are generally referred to as "go normals." This is an unfortunate term, because it might suggest that the eye (and the dog) has actually become normal, and free of CEA. That is not the case. The dog continues to be an AFFECTED dog, who will pass on a CEA allele to every pup s/he might produce. The only change is that it's no longer possible for ophthalmologists to detect by clinical examination that the dog is affected.

 

Regrettably, not all breeders or buyers of border collie pups have followed the recommendation to have pups tested during the "window of opportunity" prior to 12 weeks of age. "Go normal" dogs who were examined at a later age would have been found normal on clinical examination -- not because they actually were NORMAL, but because the ophthalmologist could not tell that they weren't. The DNA test, however, will be able to tell that these dogs are AFFECTED, because it looks at the genetic level and not at the outward appearance. The ability to identify adult "go normals" as actually being AFFECTEDs is another of the advantages the test offers to us in our efforts to prevent this disease in border collies.

 

This is already way long, but let me close with an example from another field. When I was first practicing law, DNA tests to establish paternity did not exist. In a paternity suit, in some states, the plaintiff would display the baby to the jury; if the jury thought the baby looked like the defendant, that would be an evidentiary basis for deciding that the defendant was the father. Obviously, this is very crude evidence, much cruder than an ophthalmologist's examination of the eye to determine CEA status. But it's a similar situation. The development of DNA testing permitted an accurate determination of paternity, even in those instances where the kid didn't look much like his father. The development of DNA testing for CEA permits an accurate determination of genetic CEA status, even when the eye doesn't show any indication of the defect. In both cases, genetic evidence is more accurate than visual evidence.

 

I hope this helps clarify things for any others who might have the same questions as the person who emailed me. Please don't hesitate to ask any questions you may have. Also, I'm not a scientist, so if I've gotten anything wrong, I hope that the scientists who read this (Denise?) will post a correction.

 

Eileen Stein

Member, ABCA Health & Genetics Committee

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If you have your pup examined by an ophthalmologist before it's three months old, and the vet finds the pup is AFFECTED, there's no point getting the DNA test -- you have all the info the test could give you. But if the vet finds no evidence of CEA, you still don't know whether the pup is NORMAL or a CARRIER. If you're never going to breed the pup, you don't need that additional info. But if you do decide to breed the pup, you'd want that additional info -- I would, anyway -- because if your dog is a Carrier and you breed it to anything but a Normal, you are very likely to get Affected pups.

 

Hope this answers your question . . . but I also hope you aren't getting a border collie with the intention of breeding it. There's a lot more to breeding a good dog than health tests -- much more than you could ever imagine until you've had a few years' experience with working border collies.

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Eileen has written an excellent post explaining CEA. However, since there seems to be some confusion about this disease, perhaps more is better, so I'm going to post the section on CEA from the ABCA web site. This information will be updated to include the new DNA test soon, but what was written in 2002 might help to further clarify some issues.

 

From the ABCA web page, Health and Genetics of Border Collies - A Breeder and Buyer's Guide 2002 ( link ):

 

"Collie Eye Anomaly (CEA) CEA is a congenital disorder where the parts of the eye, particularly the retinal area, do not develop normally. The severity of the disease ranges from no visual impairment to blindness. It is not a progressive disease and affected dogs normally only have mildly impaired vision. Puppies should be tested before 12 weeks of age, if possible, by a Diplomate of the Association of Canine Veterinary Ophthalmologists (DACVO) because some dogs have a mild form of the disease called "go normal", where normal tissue grows over and covers up the diseased area as the dog matures. Identification of "go normals" is important, as these dogs are affected with CEA and will produce affected puppies just as if they had full blown expression of the disease.

 

 

 

This disease is much more straightforward than HD in both its inheritance patterns and in our ability to control it. CEA is an autosomal recessive disorder. Autosomal means it is passed on and expressed equally in males or females. Recessive means a dog may carry a bad CEA gene and pass it on to its offspring without having the disease itself. A dog is defined as Clear if it has no bad CEA genes. A dog is defined as a Carrier if it has one bad CEA gene and one normal gene. Both the Carrier and the Clear dogs will be unaffected and will test negative for CEA in the eye exam. A dog is defined as Affected if it eye tests positive for CEA. The outcomes of the different crosses of these dogs are as follows:

 

 

 

Clear X Clear = 100% CEA Clear puppies

 

Clear X Carrier = on average, 50% Clear, 50% Carriers

 

Clear X Affected = 100% Carriers

 

Carrier X Carrier = on average, 25% Clear, 50% Carriers, 25% Affected

 

Carrier X Affected = on average, 50% Affected, 50% Carriers

 

Affected X Affected = 100% Affected

 

 

 

The incidence of CEA in Border Collies in North America is about 2.5%. The carrier rate is probably ten times that figure, or 25%. The problem in controlling the disease at this time is that the only way to know if a dog is a Carrier is for it to produce an Affected puppy. Since there are many unknown Carriers out there, Affected puppies will inadvertently be produced until we have a better way to test for Carriers.

 

 

 

The ABCA, with support from other working Border Collie groups and owners, has funded Dr Gregory Acland from the James A. Baker Institute for Animal Health, Cornell University, to develop a DNA test for CEA. This test will identify the CEA clear dogs (those with no bad CEA genes). The test is expected to be available in the near future.. Until this time, ABCA recommendations are as follows:

 

 

 

--For owners of known Carriers (unaffected dogs that have produced a CEA affected puppy) - ABCA recommends that anyone who inquires about the dog's progeny or as a mate be told that it is a Carrier. It also recommends that people who have any of this dog's progeny be informed that all its offspring have at least a 50% chance of also being a Carrier even if the other parent is neither a Carrier nor Affected.

 

-- For breeders of a litter in which one parent is a known Carrier - The ABCA recommends that all puppies in the litter have an ophthalmic examination by a DACVO by 12 weeks for accurate detection of "go normal" CEA. If this examination cannot be done, it is recommended that the puppy buyers be informed that they must determine from an ophthalmic examination that the dog is not affected with CEA before it is considered for breeding, as the progeny of affected dogs are not eligible for registration.

 

--Do not breed two known Carriers together, as this will likely result in Affected puppies.

 

--Do not breed CEA affected dogs. These dogs and their progeny are not eligible for registration with ABCA at this time."

 

C. Denise Wall, PhD

ABCA Health and Genetics Committee Member

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I didn't realize that the Optigen test was such a powerful diagnostic tool. The test was often presented as being a test "for carriers," and I was careless in the fact that I accepted this simplistic description as the complete diagnostic scope of the test.

 

I assumed that the test was of a positive/negative nature. So it would be Yes the gene for CEA is present or No the gene is not present. I looked at the website again when my test results arrived and read the Optigen's own description of the test carefully for the first time. Only then did I understand that Optigen believes that it can accurately identify all three genotypes.

 

I think it's important to note that one needs to understand this test, not just the phenomonon of go normal to come to the conclusion that the test accurately finds and measures not just the presence of absence of genetic information, but that it also gives information on the degree to which the gene is present.

 

Also I think it should be noted that as it stands now, Optigen's recommendation is that mildly affected dogs(dogs that are genootype affected, but phenotype normal) "be bred only to normal(genotype normal and phenotype normal)."

 

I am told by members of the ABCA's health and genetics committe that this recommendation is one that is given to rough collie breeders who have an extremely high incidence of CEA in their breed. The ABCA recommends that the relatively low incidence of CEA in the border collie makes it important to avoid producing more carriers by breeding mildly affected to normals.

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Margaret, I think the DNA test was described as the tool that would now enable us to detect carriers because that was what we were totally unable to do before. We could identify go-normals if we had them tested during the window of opportunity before 12 weeks of age, but we couldn't detect carriers no matter what we did. And now we can, because in the DNA test the actual genes themselves can be "seen."

 

>

 

Is the recommendation you quote on their website? I looked at the site a day or two ago, and I thought they said that now by breeding a Carrier or Affected to a Normal you could avoid producing any Affected offspring (which is true), but that you should consult your breed club for specific breeding recommendations. If they are actually recommending the breeding of affected dogs, either on their website or to members of the public who inquire about the test, maybe we should discuss that with them and encourage them not to make specific breeding recommendations, given that the incidence varies so much among the different breeds.

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I don't know why, but I read the recommendation part on the Optigen website as saying "Now we can identify and breed Normals" (ie, a category we did not have easy access to) - and use them to safely breed valuable "Affecteds" (and also "Carriers", of course).

 

Common sense says that the preference would be given to Normal x Carrier or Normal x Normal breedings. The point, however, that I got from the web site is that now is is possible to use ALL classes of dogs, by choosing breeding stock wisely according to working ability first, then selecting mates that complement both the working ability and the health of the dog.

 

Just as an ethical (well, in my book anyway) breeder wouldn't cross two merles, not matter how much ability they had, knowing unhealthy pups would be produced almost for sure, so we can make decisions about CEA in a similiar manner. Before the test I saw a lot of decisions being made from fear - fear of stigmatization on one hand; and on the other, fear of the rise of CEA in the breed similiar to the levels in the Standard Collie. I lived with it myself since I've had two Open dogs, neither of which had had eyes examinined before twelve weeks. I'm hoping we can get past that now - I sure have, at the moment.

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Oh I can understand the reason for describing the test as one that identified carriers. I'll be the first one to agree that getting this test "out there" was a lot of complicated work and I think that in such situations things aren't going to workout 100% the way we would like them to.

 

Optigen gave me their breeding recommendations in a private communication. I would advise that you to check with them if you have any doubts about my reliability. I thought you would have done that already. I don't mean that I would have but knowing you to be thorough and detail oriented I would expect you to know.

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Hi Margaret,

 

I'm sure no one here doubts the people at Optigen advised you that you could breed an Affected to a Normal. As has been said, this is a common recommendation to give collie people, where the number of Affecteds is high and, rather than suffering more damaging effects to their gene pool by concentrating other mutations, they must breed Affected dogs. In defense of Optigen, most of their DNA tests are breed specific, whereas this test covers six breeds. It's new, and it will take some time to iron out the details with ABCA on what our specific breed recommendations are.

 

ABCA's recommendations are breed specific for working border collies and are developed to the best of our ability by taking a comprehensive, long-term view of the breed. It?s a balancing act based on characteristics and current situations unique to working border collies. Optigen is not ABCA however, and in actuality, advice and recommendations different from ABCA's on all sorts of matters are given out all the time by vets, ophthalmologists, canine geneticists and other authorities. Some of their recommendations are more stringent than ABCA recommendations and some are more lenient. This is not really anything we can control, nor should we. Recommendations are guidelines and it's up to each individual to make their own decisions about whether or not to use them. And although it is a rule that CEA Affected dogs cannot be registered with ABCA at this time, nothing is to stop anyone from breeding their CEA Affected dog if they want to.

 

As I said, at this time, we do not recommend breeding Affected dogs. That may change. The reason it may change is, just as one can breed through having a Carrier by using the DNA test to select Normal dogs, one can breed through having an Affected dog. The difference is just one more generation. Here?s how it's done:

 

Suppose you have CEA Affected dog that is such an exceptional worker that you feel its line should be carried on. Find the mate whose working qualities you feel would complement your dog, and make sure that dog is DNA Normal for CEA. Although the pups would all be Carriers, none would be affected with CEA from this cross. Train the progeny and identify the best dogs. If you decide any of these dogs are breed-worthy, make sure their mates are DNA Normal for CEA. Again, no Affected dogs would be produced. Statistically, half the litter would be Carriers, half Normal for CEA. Again, train the progeny and identify the best dogs. DNA test these dogs to determine if they are Normal or Carriers. If the best workers you have chosen are Normal, the working qualities in the line have been preserved and the line cleared of the CEA gene. If any of the best workers turn out to be Carriers, the process can repeated where it's bred to a Normal dog in hopes the best workers in the next generation will turn out Normal. By staying with this plan until the CEA gene is lost, those with good working Carriers and Affecteds can breed through the defect to clear the line without having produced diseased puppies in the process. Also important for the long-term future of the breed, a genetically diverse population has been preserved.

 

We?ve been discussing this sort of thing on the Health and Genetics Committee for at least eight years. The problem with implementing a policy to breed CEA Affecteds at this time is many people do not have a thorough understanding of the test or how to use it. If the goal is to use the DNA test wisely to control the CEA gene while preserving the valuable working traits in the breed, then the working border collie population needs some time to learn how to use the test effectively. I don?t feel that has happened yet, as evidenced by Margaret?s confusion over the test.

 

I hope this helps. Let's keep this thread going as long as we need to for people to get any misconceptions sorted through.

 

C. Denise Wall, PhD

ABCA Health and Genetics Committee Member

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If you DNA test even one parent for CEA and they are Normal, you don't need to eye test the puppies for CEA. Even though in this situation you won't know for sure if the pups are Normal or Carriers with only one parent tested, none will be Affected so the eye exam will not be needed to identify CEA Affected puppies. (Note that the eye exam cannot identify Carriers, only Affecteds).

 

If you DNA test both parents and they are both Normal, there is no need for the puppies to be DNA tested either. They will all be DNA Normal from this cross.

 

Edited to add that eye exams are not only to detect CEA. There are many other problems eye exams detect so although there is no need to eye test puppies before 12 weeks in the situation described above in order to detect possible CEA Affecteds, I'm not saying they should never be eye tested for any other reason.

 

C. Denise Wall, PhD

ABCA Health and Genetics Committee Member

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Denise wrote:

 

If you DNA test even one parent for CEA and they are Normal, you don't need to eye test the puppies.
This may actually be a cheaper route to go. Have only had one litter. To be eye tested by 8 weeks, near us, would have cost $120 per pup. Didn't matter that they were only testing for CEA, and no discounts for a litter. I thought they didn't understand what I was asking, so called more than once and more than one person, same answer each time.

Nancy O

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>

 

No need to do that. I just wanted to identify correctly what exactly it was we should be speaking to them about, if we decided it would be appropriate to speak with them about recommendations. Denise is totally right that anyone can make recommendations different from ours, but since Optigen showed a disposition to defer to the individual breed clubs in what I read on their website, it might be a good idea to let them know what the ABCA recommendation is and why. That's something I should think the H&G Committee will probably discuss.

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On a side note, how does this relate to the eye tests required for the USBCHA Finals? Do genetically tested dogs still need to be examined periodically, and what about their offspring? Say a Nursery pup in a year or so from now out of one tested dog and one untested, or from a litter where both the sire and dam were tested? Perhaps this has yet to be determined by the USBCHA? Just curious.

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Hi Terry,

 

Good questions. H&G Committee has been discussing some of these questions but have nothing solid ironed out yet to recommend.

 

However, I will say that even though CEA is the most worrisome genetic eye disease in the breed right now, we don't know what is in the future. For one thing, overzealous use of the DNA test such as excluding CEA carriers (probably a large percentage of the breed) from breeding, could concentrate in the gene pool other harmful mutations, some of which could cause eye diseases. Another thing is, there could be other genetic eye diseases out there with a very low incidence that have not been determined to be a problem in the breed yet. We wouldn't want something like that to get by us undetected.

 

Mostly, though, eye exams detect other eye problems, and aside from whether these problems are heritable or not, it's good to know about them in case your dog is having some problem you didn't realize. One example is an acquired retinal disorder called Focal/Multifocal Acquired Retinopathy (FMAR) that is seen frequently in our breed, as it is in some other hard working breeds. The incidence is perhaps as high as 10% in working border collies. I've had a dog with this who lost almost all of his vision over time. For more info go to the the ABCA web site and read the section on FMAR.

 

My own personal opinion is I like to have my dogs' eyes tested every few years just to make sure they're doing okay.

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The reason it may change is, just as one can breed through having a Carrier by using the DNA test to select Normal dogs, one can breed through having an Affected dog.

 

But not whilst continuing to maintain ABCA registration of the progeny, given that one of your original dogs was CEA Affected?

 

A.

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Andrea,

 

Right, the current ABCA policy is that CEA Affected dogs and their progeny are not eligible for ABCA registration. It's possible this policy could be changed in the future. Should ABCA decide to accept CEA Affected dogs in the registry, I would hope there would be some recommendations in place on how to breed those dogs so as not to produce more CEA affected dogs.

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This may actually be a cheaper route to go. Have only had one litter. To be eye tested by 8 weeks, near us, would have cost $120 per pup. Didn't matter that they were only testing for CEA, and no discounts for a litter. I thought they didn't understand what I was asking, so called more than once and more than one person, same answer each time.

Nancy O

______________________________________________

 

Why would one want to go the cheaper route. I know it is not nessassary but shoul dyou test all the pups just in case?

 

I mean I know you guys are against breeders or new ones whatever the case. But this is what we are testing our new pup for. Just in Case he does well in herding and such and we want another pup down the line.

 

Hip Dysplasia

Elbow Dysplasia

Patellar Luxation

Legg-Calve-Perthes

Cardiac

Thyroid

DNA

Congenital Deafness

Shoulder OCD

PRA

Baer

CEA

VonWillibrands (sp?)

And more if I can think of any

 

I know this is not needed in this breed but I would rather be safe than sorry why would a breeder want to save money. Arnt they doing it for the breed not the money?

 

THanks

Samantha

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Samantha wrote:

 

Why would one want to go the cheaper route.
Samantha,

Let's say I had 10 pups. At $120/pup that would be $1200 to eye test the pups for CEA. I could test both the parents for $360 and have a guarantee that no pups would be affectd for this litter and any subsequent litters. That's a big difference in price AND I could have known ahead of the breeding whether I should breed this pair or not.

 

I have only had one litter, the bitch had a c-section for one retained pup and was spade. The sire is eye tested (but not genetic tested) and OFA good and obviously will not be bred to her again.

 

Samantha wrote

 

I know it is not nessassary but should you test all the pups just in case?
I didn't know the answer to this question and asked the same question earlier in the thread.

According to Denise:

If you DNA test even one parent for CEA and they are Normal, you don't need to eye test the puppies.
Now I don't mind spending money but saving $840 for one litter, when I could be guaranteed ahead of time that not one pup would be affected seems to me the more sensible route to go.

 

Nancy O

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I know this is not needed in this breed but . . . . >>

 

You've answered your own question.

 

One of the signs of a bad breeder, IMO, is that they pride themselves on doing unnecessary tests. A willingness to spend money unnecessarily is no substitute for knowledge and experience when it comes to breeding good working dogs, but breeders who lack that knowledge and experience often try to fool people into thinking it is.

 

>

 

I think your list is a bit inflated as it is. How do you test a pup for hip dysplasia? Or shoulder OCD? And how does your test for congenital deafness differ from a BAER test?

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Samantha wrote:

 

"I mean I know you guys are against breeders or new ones whatever the case. But this is what we are testing our new pup for. Just in Case he does well in herding and such and we want another pup down the line.

 

Hip Dysplasia

Elbow Dysplasia

Patellar Luxation

Legg-Calve-Perthes

Cardiac

Thyroid

DNA

Congenital Deafness

Shoulder OCD

PRA

Baer

CEA

VonWillibrands (sp?)

And more if I can think of any

 

I know this is not needed in this breed but I would rather be safe than sorry why would a breeder want to save money. Arnt they doing it for the breed not the money?"

 

If you know it's not needed then why are you doing it? Money issue or no money issue, this isn't responsible breeding, it's called the shotgun approach. Nothing can replace knowledge and experience in breeding. Not even spending all your money on every test known to man.

 

A more reasonable approach would be to test only what you need to in order to determine that you have a healthy individual. Find out if the dog is a good worker worthy of being bred. Then worry about the other tests you might need to do for breeding. It's the middle part that's the biggest test and by the time that part is satisfied, if it is, you might have the experience to have a better idea of what you really need to test for.

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If you know it's not needed then why are you doing it? Money issue or no money issue, this isn't responsible breeding, it's called the shotgun approach. Nothing can replace knowledge and experience in breeding. Not even spending all your money on every test known to man.

 

A more reasonable approach would be to test only what you need to in order to determine that you have a healthy individual. Find out if the dog is a good worker worthy of being bred. Then worry about the other tests you might need to do for breeding. It's the middle part that's the biggest test and by the time that part is satisfied, if it is, you might have the experience to have a better idea of what you really need to test for.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the signs of a bad breeder, IMO, is that they pride themselves on doing unnecessary tests. A willingness to spend money unnecessarily is no substitute for knowledge and experience when it comes to breeding good working dogs, but breeders who lack that knowledge and experience often try to fool people into thinking it is.
Ok so let me get this all straight. If you have a great herding dog that has proven itself over and over, and you have been mentored by some great people (not saying I have yet but I do have a few good people I am learning from), really the only way to get knowledge is by experience isnt it? and your dogs are over tested then you are a bad breeder? How does this work? I mean really, a lot of breeds are inflicted by problems that they never even knew were in the breed. I would think the only way to be sure that it is not and never will be a huge problem is by testing. I misunderstood, I thought it was being advised to only test one parent. But if youa re testing both then I can see your point, but I think on the wave length of better safe than sorry. Hoe can you think a breeder is bad (which I am neither) by testing? THis sounds insane to me.

 

think your list is a bit inflated as it is. How do you test a pup for hip dysplasia? Or shoulder OCD? And how does your test for congenital deafness differ from a BAER test?
Well really it is simple see at 4 months you can do pennhip. I am probably going to wait until a year old and do Pennhip and OFA prelim. Then at 2 we will do the OFA permanent. So that is how that would be done. As far as the difference it may be the same thing you may be able to register the baer test with them. I will surely find out for you. These ar enot my tests, LOL this is testing that you send into to OFA.
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Samantha,

 

Ok so let me get this all straight. If you have a great herding dog that has proven itself over and over, and you have been mentored by some great people (not saying I have yet but I do have a few good people I am learning from), really the only way to get knowledge is by experience isnt it? and your dogs are over tested then you are a bad breeder?

 

I can't say because I've never known a breeder who fits in with the first part of your scenario above who also did the second.

 

How does this work? I mean really, a lot of breeds are inflicted by problems that they never even knew were in the breed. I would think the only way to be sure that it is not and never will be a huge problem is by testing...but I think on the wave length of better safe than sorry. Hoe can you think a breeder is bad (which I am neither) by testing? THis sounds insane to me.

 

I don't even know where to start.

 

Since I'm from a clinical laboratory background (MT(ASCP)SH) as well as a scientific one, I can tell you that professionals in a hospital setting who take the shotgun approach to testing you've proposed are either unsure of themselves or unknowledgeable.

 

From another perspective, try walking into your physician's office in perfect health and telling him/her you know these tests you want to have him/her run aren't needed but better be safe than sorry. Then reel off about 100-200 tests you want. S/he wouldn't do them, even if you offered to pay yourself.

 

Now, a vet might do this sort of thing for your dog, but that's a different story.

 

I think the main thing that bothers me is you're doing what people who overtest do -- making it sound as if what you're doing is better than what people who test reasonably do. And by that same standard, that your dogs are better because of having been tested for more things than somebody else's dog.

 

I don't see you asking any questions about breeding except health testing questions. It looks as if that's where you're placing all your emphasis. That's not what it should be all about.

 

BTW, both Eileen and I are on the ABCA Health and Genetics Committee so please assume we understand the tests you listed. You don't need to look anything up for us.

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