Demented owner ..... plz help !!!.

[Angie Black]

I have a problem with wee Penny and wondered if anyone can offer advice. !!!!

 

Penny is nearly 11 months old. It took us longer than expected to toilet train her and many accidents. We new the rules and applied them but it took a while before we understood Penny's subtle way of asking out. Penny prefers to lie on cold hard floors and I believe a chill or two in her wee bladder last winter did not help the learning process however we got there in the end and Penny has been fully house trained for many months now.

Our problem is ..... Penny can only go about 4 hours with out needing to urinate. This is fine during the day but Penny wakes me up usually twice through the night. I take her out, enourage her to pee pee which she does within seconds. I give her a minute or two and ask her if she needs a stinky, which she can easily produce twice through the night, then we go straight back to bed where she settles straight away.

Penny gets fed around 6 o clock pm and pleanty oppertunity outside to relieve herself and gets half an hour or so outside last thing before bed around 11, and can still go twice through the night before we are up between 7 and 8.

 

This can not be natural !!!!! any advice ?

 

 

And as if Penny's toilet needs were n't demanding enough ..... you need to scoop up any stinkies from the garden immediately or Penny devours them. I have spoken to the vet about this and they suggested she had nuitritional defficiency however I have tried her on various types of food but she still enjoys cleaning up the yard.

Penny seems very healthy despite the dodgy breath, she's growing well, building muscle, healthy coat, teeth and eyes and full of energy.

 

Any help and advice would be fantastic. There has got to be a reason other than, she is a wee dog that is allergic to being clean. She also rolls in anything and everything smelly and does n't like when I wash her bed.

 

plz help .... demented owner !

[AK dog doc]

Hi Angie

IMO, the "poop eating" behavior is actually pretty common, and even 'normal' (if thoroughly disgusting) behavior in dogs - it's called coprophagy, and it doesn't *necessarily* indicate a nutritional deficiency, although it can. Also, the love of smelly things to roll in is common to all dogdom, unfortunately, and is in itself so rewarding that most dogs can only be convinced not to do it if you catch them before they start (sometimes not even then, if it's particularly nasty and disgusting). I have never had a dog in all my life who did not love smelly things to roll in. I have it on good authority that rotting crab guts are the worst, but I hear that fox crap is pretty bad too (partly the "sticky" factor). She may dislike the bed-washing simply because it smells or feels strange to her after washing (dogs being creatures of habit, she may prefer it "personalized" with her own hair and scent), or she may be sensitive to perfumes which can be present in detergents, or to the detergents themselves.

 

As for the urination frequency issues - puppies are more liquid per pound than adult dogs, so they DO have to pee more often; they simply have to process more fluid to be healthy than adults do. Penny isn't quite fully grown yet. That said, there may be health issues that relate to frequent urination, so you might check with your vet about that and whether or not mild water restriction is appropriate - withdrawing water for a few hours before bedtime. I must emphasis that this is NOT (not not not!) always appropriate, so you MUST check first before trying this. I generally do not expect pups to be fully housebroken until they are at LEAST 6 months old, and many take longer. Even BCs.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Angie Black]

Ahhh thx AK Dog doc,

 

Brilliant reply and quite reasuring.

 

The poop eating is not a huge problem, just disgusting like you say. My only real worry here is wee Penny picking up an infection ( and boy ....poop the second time round smells even worse ) She's done the poop eating for about 8-9 months, basically from about 16 weeks old so don't think its anything other than a mingy wee dog thing. Tried her on various diets with no change. Did n't know there was a name for it though "coprophagy" so I'll do a bit of further research on it and will just need to continue catching Penny in the act and tell her off till she learns. lol, Thats ok until your too exhausted to get up ( 9 months off this twice a night ) when she has an accident in the house and then has fun for half an hour chewing and tossing it about into tiny peices. Not funny !!!

 

lol .... The problem with the dirty bed is livable now and she's quite happy to dig and mess up her bed with muddy feet after digging holes in the garden but when she was a pup, she was continually wetting it. Soon as it was washed and back down .... she would widdle, and then widdle Peppers bed ??? I was under the impression, dogs would not soil their own bed !

Thinking about it now and after reading these great boards ..... Penny was farm reared and 9 weeks old living in a small outbuilding. If she could n't get outside then and all the other pups were wetting the floor and bedding ..... this would be what she thought was correct. She was given no training before we got her either. !!!

She still took her time learnin though The first :mad: from me should have been enough !!!!

 

I heard many stories about pups being house trained with in weeks and Penny just seemed to take forever. 6 months sounds realistic to be 100% house trained to me, but I felt bad hearing how well eveyone else's pups were doing. Penny was only 13 weeks when we had major work done to the house ( councils choice - not mine ) and this caused major problems with flooding, incompetent workmanship and 5 months of carbon monoxide poisioning. We were left basically in a building site and no carpets through the winter so this had major effect on wee Penny to so I'm really pleased to hear you say 6 months. Penny took about 7 months but all things considered ... I'm pleased with that. And I mean 100% trained. Any accidents are my fault.

 

Penny is now 11 months and I feel she should be able to go longer than 4 hours .... 5 max, even through the night when she's quiet and settled. She has grown and is maturing well but has been a bit slower than other dogs to learn in general but not to the extend there is a problem. Penny has not come into season yet either but feel its on the way. Maybe she is just needs a bit more time than the average pups. She was not the healthiest of pups when we purchased her.

Not keen on the water restriction as I have too dogs ... they prefer to drink from a fountain in the garden anyway but maybe I could try half filling the bowl at night. Pepper is very lazy and it takes me to get her out bed in the morning let alone her get up through the night for a drink so half a bowl would do Penny.

 

I was going to discuss the problem with my vet when Penny need dressed but I've been waiting and waiting ..... and had no other need to go! Her boosters not due till December so I'll try the water restriction for a bit then take her along.

 

Sorry for the long post but BC are not straight forward wee dogs. My brain is going mad with all this great info and Pennys wee problems making sense. I'm learning so much and what an experience .....

 

Thanks so much for your help AK dog doc.

[krista]

I'm just a newbie and not sure if you should do this but my puppy ate hers too and so I put a lot of hot sauce on her messes and let her have it. It broke her quickly. But am sure it's not an approved thing to do but I was just to grosses out letting her.

[Susan M. & Skipper, Annie and Ben]

Just my 2 cents? My dogs love rolling in coyote poop, the fresher the better, and it does stink!

 

re: "Penny can only go about 4 hours with out needing to urinate. This is fine during the day but Penny wakes me up usually twice through the night. I take her out, enourage her to pee which she does within seconds."

 

I had one old girl who would take a dip in a stagnant pond whenever she could. She picked up a bladder infection from this and the main symptoms were frequency and urgency. She had to pee more often than usual and sometimes couldn?t hold it until she got outside. In her case, a urine culture, antibiotics, plenty of fresh drinking water (and keeping her out of yucky ponds) did the trick. Anyway, what you said above reminded me so much of Gabby?s bladder infection that I thought I ask if you?ve had that ruled out?

[jrid]

I had a puppy that ate his own poop and all my other dog's poop. I put crushed pineapple or pineapple juice in every dog's food every meal for two or three weeks and the poop eating ceased.

Actually the poop eating stopped the first day, but I kept putting the pineapple in for a couple of weeks to try break the habit completely. I don't know why it works, but it does.

[Sue R]

Some folks put a bit of meat tenderizer on the pup's food. It will make the poop taste bad to the pup. I did try this with my boy and he got an upset stomach from it, so I didn't continue. However, in the couple of days I tried it, the problem ceased!

 

Meat tenderizer works the same way as pineapple but, I thought, the pineapple had to be fresh or frozen, not cooked or canned, to work. The enzyme is destroyed or deactivated by heat.

 

Sometimes, I think it also takes some time and growing up. My pups would eat ANYTHING that was disgusting but, now that they are two and almost two, they don't tend to pick up much of anything that's gross (except the ultra-yummy calf meconium or colostrum poops - I don't think a farm dog will EVER outgrow their appreciation of these gourmet delights).

 

Just remember this bit of advice - if your dog likes to lick your face, keep your lips shut!

[Angie Black]

OMG.... Thx so much for all your replies and advice.

 

Hi Krista, When Penny first got out into the big bad world, she was terible for picking up twigs and eating them which resulted in an infection. I was advised to get someone to walk 5 minutes in front of me dropping biscuits covered in mustard to combat the twig chewing. I imagine it is the same kind of principle. Think its time to give it a try. Thx.

 

Hi jrid, " Pineapple" ??? Sounds simple enough to me and a lot more pleasant than poop breath. Who cares what the science behind it is, so long as it works. I'll give it a try and let you know how it goes. Thx.

 

Hi Susan, Skipper and Annie. I have n't actually ruled out a bladder infection. Penny loves swimming in the canal and the diving around the muddy pond so you could be onto something there. Drinking out the garden fountain could be the cause too but Pepper also uses this as a source of water. I had thought it may have been a chill with the swimming though. ( thinking very hard !!!!)

Infection sounds more likely than a chill though. She's never been able to go long without a pee though .... As a pup Penny could piddle every half hour, then go a bit longer then back to half hourly. She was on antibiotics when she had an an infection after eating twigs and I don't recall any change then but I could easily have missed it. I think I'll take your advice and have the urine cultures done to be safe. Thx so much, you may just have hit the nail on the head. I can feel a good night sleep coming on.

 

Hi Sue and Ed, Ahh, there must be some truth in the pinapple treatment. Fresh pineapple it is then !!!

I think your also correct about her growing out of it eventually. Theres nothing funnier than tearing through the flower beds, getting chased by mummy, waving her arms in the air yelling leave it ! Brilliant laugh

I cringe at the comment, "don't think a farm dog will ever grow out of its appreciation for these gaurmet delights" This is not what I wanted to here! I've joked about Penny from day one ... "its because she's a mingin wee farm dug " Oh well, guess I'll just need to bulk buy doggy shampoo. Pennys deffinately got farm dog instincts.

LOL @ your advice. Her whiskers just need to touch my face and I'm out of the bed wide awake, jacket trainers, lets go Penny. She's not getting anywhere near my face till the pineapples kicked in.

 

Absolutely brilliant everyone. Loads of suggestions and nothing to suggest anything majorly wrong so a huge relief, thx.

Vets for urine cultures ( although how the heck you manage to get a sample from a border collie is another story ) Fresh pineapple in their dinners and something yucky in a squeezey bottle to relish the doggy doos with.

 

Fantastic Thanks so much everyone and here's to a good nights kip soon and loads of kisses.

[sea4th]

If you have other dogs, make sure they get pineapple as well.

 

And they don't necessarily outgrow it----proof here----Dolly, my 11 1/2 yr. border collie bitch who thinks it's wonderful---so it's best to curb it at the get go----Dolly's got some problems.

 

Vicki

[Angie Black]

Hi sea4th,

 

Don't worry bout Pepper. She does n't miss a thing, especially where food is concerned. She'll really appreciate the treat too as she's on a major diet.

 

Ohh no, a lifetime of stinky breath for Penny. I'll give the pineapple and relishing the doos a go and keep trying to get her to understand to leave it but she picks it up and runs these days lol. I can only pray but something tells me Pennys not giving up the habit or growing out of it. She loves anything and everything stinking.

 

Suzie who we lost last August was a border collie cross and she loved a good roll in anything honking up to the age of 15 when we sadly lost her. She did n't eat her own poo though.

 

 

Pepper and Penny both had a go at devouring some horse doo today, but then again I've never had a dog that would walk past a pile.

 

Awww sorry to hear Dollys got a few problem. Hope she's ok and nothing too serious.

[Angie Black]

Good news about Penny. ( but another wee problem now lol )

 

I monitored her water for a week or two but was a little worried about restricting it. I'm restricting her swimming and playing in the pond as the winters coming and its getting chilly though. I thought long and hard and was n't convinced it was an infection as it had been going on so long. Penny likes to push her luck way past the limits and felt this was more likely to be the problem.

 

Anyway ...... Penny for some unknown reason stopped waking me up at 2 o clock in the morning to get out. I was waking around 4 and would take her out. She would do her buisiness and straight back to bed, and that was her till I got up about 8. She amazingly stopped laying stinkies and eating them ( still puzzelled ) and gradually she got better. We've only had 2 piddles in a fortnight and no stinkies. I always waken about 6 for the loo so give her a shout and let her out.

 

I've got no idea what changed, but Penny seems quite capable of holding her bladder through the night if she wants to. If she does n't stir when I'm up at 6, I can sometimes even slip back to bed and get up at 8 with no mess.

 

Massive thanks for everyones help and advice. Very much appreciated by both myself and Penny.

[Sue R]

Angie, just love your posts about "wee Penny". When I was growing up, some folks used the word "wee" to mean pee, tinkle, piddle, or whatever you use to mean "urinate".

 

So, in the context of one of Penny's problems, "wee Penny" seems quite appropriate! And, easier to enjoy when you don't live with the problem!

 

The wonderful lady from whom I got my pup gave me some good advice on teaching "leave it". I had never had any success with this concept before but I tried her method when Celt was very tiny (seven weeks). You might try it with Penny.

 

Sitting or standing in the kitchen, I would toss down a small treat in front of my feet, with Celt just far enough away to have to take a couple of steps to come and get it. As he advanced, I would put my foot over the treat and say, "Leave it". Then, I would give him praise and a "better" treat from my hand when he would back off. He was very young, but picked this up very quickly.

 

We got our other dog at seven months. I used the same technique with her. She is not as good as Celt at leaving things on command, but is still quite good. Try it, it might work with Penny.

 

As they age, they seem to get less interested in eating foul things although I think they never lose their love for rolling! However, I find this command does work for rolling as well as eating, particularly if I can catch the dog as it discovers the wonderful spot and before it gets "engrossed" in it. Once they are rolling, the euphoria sometimes is overpowering!

[Angie Black]

Ahhh thx Sue and Ed.

 

I'm proud to say as a first time BC owner, that I did research and followed many training books when Penny was a pup and did use the method you suggest which worked very well with food. ( sorry, I'm all chuffed to hear I'm on the right track with the training although definately no expert - I'm starting to see the 10 months of banging my head off the wall, I mean training paying off and am really pleased )

 

Penny learned to "Leave it" with food in the kitchen as a pup at first, then last winter it proved very usefull with Penny picking up twigs and eating them. It works when she tries to steal the fishermens bait, human food or garbage out the bin, but the "stinkies" proved irresistable for her. Especially if she was in the garden and I was looking out the window. She took great pleasure in picking it up and running ..brilliant game ! Maybe it was just a trouble some age she was at or that I needed to find the right tone of voice. The really serious "leave it" tone

There was also the problem that she was doing it through the night when I was asleep and there was no "leave it" command at all.

 

Penny learned the basics of training pretty quickly but she learned how to break the training rules even faster. She is a handfull and pushes her luck way past the limits but I would n't have her any other way. Never a dull day with a Border Collie.

 

Many thanks for your advice and very much appreciated and I'm sure will be of great use to other new BC owners too.

 

I don't understand what changed with Penny but am very happy anyway. Maybe it is just part of her growing up as she has changed a lot over the last month.

[Sue R]

So, Angie, what part of Scotland are you and "wee Penny" from? I ask because I had the once-in-a-lifetime chance to visit with my daughter several years back and we absolutely loved it!

 

I have found that, for my dogs at least, growing up a bit has made a world of difference. I love them more each day but I also find it easier to live with them!

 

Good luck to you both!

[Angie Black]

Hiya Sue & Ed,

 

I'm from central Scotland, Half way between Edingurgh and Glasgow in a wee village surounded by fields. I love Scotland, especially up North on the west coast. Aww fantastic, which part of Scotland did you visit ?

 

Pennys my first BC and there is so much to learn but she is absolutely fantastic. I love watching and learning from her. Penny is a real handful at times and I've had a few times when I cried and thought .... can I really cope and give Penny what she needs. I believe a dog is for life and Penny is here to stay no matter what.

 

The last month, I've really seen Penny mature ( lol, well at least screw the nut ) and the hard work I've put in seem to be paying off. We have a long road ahead but I'm really looking forward to it and getting more and more intregued by the breed every day.

 

Many thx,

[Sue R]

Angie - Laura and I went on a guided trip. We came into Glasgow by plane and got to see the city and the wonderful sand sculptures in the center of town.

 

We went on and stayed in Kinguissie (I'm sure I butchered the spelling of that) several days as we toured to Glencoe, Fort William, Isle of Skye, ancient stone circles, Loch Ness, and Inverness (got to see the tattoo).

 

We also stayed in Perth and, finally, Edinburgh. Hit the high spots, St. Andrews, Stirling Castle, and Edinburgh Castle (an afternoon wandering Edinburgh by ourselves was wonderful).

 

Then, off on the midnight train to London for a couple of days. It was surely a wonderful trip and I enjoyed Scotland the best! I could never take a nap on the bus because I couldn't pull my eyes away from the windows. Whenever Laura and I got the chance, we wandered and did our own thing.

 

Thank goodness it was a guided tour because we did not have to worry about transport, etc. Someday, I would like to go back with my husband and do our own "tour".

 

I envy you living in a little town with fields all around. Scotland is lovely and well-kept, with so many centuries of history and tradition.

 

Let's keep in touch - next summer I hope to go to Ireland with Ed as he has meetings there and a satelite meeting is in Glasgow! If he goes to that, I will try to visit you and wee Penny, if you'll have me!

[Angie Black]

Hi Sue and Ed,

Sorry not had time to post or read on here for ages. Busy life owning a BC lol.

 

Awww your trip of Scotland sounds fantastic and sounds like you took in loads of the major attractions. My favourite part is up the west coast, Aviemore, Fort William and Oban area, especially Autumn / winter time.

 

If your coming to Glasgow, we'll deffinately need to meet up. Would be great to meet you and of course I'll have you and Ed.

[Angie Black]

Just wanted to post an update on Penny and thank everyone for their help and advice.

 

Penny is perfectly fine. She is and has been perfectly capable of holding her bladder fine for a while. I think it was more a case of .... she did n't want too, despite her knowing it was wrong. The vet has said she is slow to develop however resticting her playing in the pond had the biggest impact. No infection was ever detected so I'm guessing it was more to do with a chill. Penny was asking out early morning but suddenly, she became terrified of something in the garden and refused to go out. This fear got worse and worse and she would hang on to her bladder till daylight rather than go out. Several months have passed and she still has a fear of something outside although much milder than before, but I am totally baffled as to what it is. Penny has gone right through the night for months now but after swimming last weekend, she had an accident two nights running again.

 

I don't suppose I'll ever definately really know the cause of Penny's initial problems however she is now fine which is the main thing. The swimming deffinately is a contributing factor though.

 

Many thanks to everyones help and advice.

[Sue R]

Angie, wonderful to hear that Penny is doing well and that you are "solving" some of her problems.

 

It looks like Ed and I will be in Ireland from about June 26 through July 2, in Glasgow from July 3 through July 6, and then back to Ireland for the World Sheepdog Championships (spectators, of course) from July 7 through July 10, and heading home from Dublin on July 11.

 

Now, those are the dates as I can remember them as I don't have my calendar with me (I'm here in western North Carolina, visiting my daughter). Let's keep in touch and I hope we can get together in Glasgow one of those days!

 

Good luck with you and not-so-wee-anymore Penny!

[Angie Black]

Hi Sue and Ed,

 

We are doing brilliantly thx, Penny is very cheeky and will always be a handfull. It'll be a year on the 21st of December since we got her and although its been an eventfull year, we've not had anything major go wrong .... no major health, injuries or behavioural problem so we've been very lucky. Considering she is our first BC, and I new very little about them when we got her, I'm very pleased and more than happy with her. Looking forward to many happy years together.

 

Its been a vey chaotic year for us which is why I've not been on the boards for a while and I cant plan anything deffinate for next week let alone next year but we will deffinately need to stay in touch and it would be great to meet up when you come over.

 

Thanks again from myself and wee Penny.

 

( I need to learn to post pictures because she really is still small for her age.)