Angel's Fate?

[Laura's Angel]

I am new to owning a border collie. I have a golden retreiver, a black lab, a Heinz 57, and now a border collie. All my dogs have been rescued dogs from humane societies except for the border collie that followed me home 1 month ago.

The dog was emaciated and followed me 3 miles into one of my 10-mile walking treks. I had planned to take her to the local humane society (a no-kill facility) but decided to keep her as she seemed like such a wonderful animal that got along well with my husband, children, and the other dogs.

I did not know what kind of dog she was until I took her to the vet last week (since no one claimed her). Angel had blood work, shots given, and was prodded in all orafices. She was very tolerant of these activities. My vet informed me of her breed, how intellegent BCs are, and told what a beautiful animal she was. Just as we were exiting the office, the vet reached around the dog toward her rear, and Angel gave the most viscious growl I had ever heard (aimed at the vet). Much to my surprize, the vet quickly began discussing the need to put this dog down as she was too unpredictable and could harm someone since she was not being provoked when she growled at him.

I told the vet that I would discuss his concerns with my husband before I made any quick decisions about the fate of this animal. I am always very careful with any of my dogs around the children anyway. I love this animal but I do not want to ignore warnings of a distressed dog that could harm anyone.

Does anyone have any experience with how this matter should be handled? I presently have no intention to destroy this animal. She has been nothing but wonderful with my family and me.

[Sue R]

I am no expert in dog behavior, but I would like to see you give this dog a chance. You had the dog for three weeks before visiting the vet, as I think I understand, and in all that time, the dog was good with all your family members and pets.

 

I wonder if the dog wasn't startled as the vet reached behind and growled a warning. She didn't bite or snap, after all, did she?

 

This dog was in dire straits when you took her home and who knows what she experienced before she "found" you on your walk. However, her following you along for such a distance, her behavior in your home, and her good behavior at the vet's would lead me to think she is basically a well-intentioned, trusting dog.

 

I would, as you said, be very careful and monitor her behavior around family and pets. I do tend to think that she was simply caught off guard by the vet's movement and a second chance is in order.

 

I hope that others on the board with more dog experience will voice their opinions about this. Good luck and I sincerely hope it works out well for all of you.

[AK dog doc]

Hi Laura

Well, I AM a vet, and I have BCs and adore them (both my specific ones, and BCs in general). I'll be the first to say that BCs are not everybody's gig, and that many of them are a bit weird at times (and sometimes more than a bit weird). However, IMO, that one episode is not enought to sign the dog's death warrant. Certainly it might indicate a need to do some training and temperament assessment, which will allow you more time to assess the dog's real character (three weeks isn't long enough, IMO, to tell everything about the dog; she has an unknown history, which might include all sorts of trauma or pain or fear - or might not). It could be that she has hind end pain or is fearful of men and gave what she considered an appropriate warning - and if she DID warn, and did not just go strait to the bite, then you at least have *some* lattitude there. It may be that she'll turn out not to be the right dog for you, and that there may be worse behavior problems lurking - but it could be that she'll turn out to be the best dog you ever had. I think I'd look into training and spend some more time finding out what is really going on with her before I'd get too drastic. You DO want to excersize reasonable caution about not letting her bite anyone - including you - but if she tolerated the rest of the exam without incedent, I have to wonder if there was some other factor that caused her to snarl when the doc reached to the hind end. It doesn't sound like she's one of those land sharks which will take your face off or lay your arm open without even the warning of a curled lip or a stare. THOSE dogs are scary.

 

I have several BC patients who don't see the humor in coming to the hospital, and very probably would bite me if allowed to do so, but who are wonderful with their families and in other environments and would never consider biting anyone but a vet. This makes them difficult patients, but not difficult dogs in general. Very few of them deserve to be euthanised for this. Some have made huge strides just with training. There are some with more intensive behavioral issues which require a great deal more work from their owners, as well, but who do fine if appropriately managed. I rarely see a completely psycho BC, though they do exist, and I'd be hesitant to suggest that your dog is one of that group based on the description given so far. Bear in mind that sometimes people don't read dog body language very well (sometimes even vets don't), and it is possible that the dog is giving you more signals than you realise; that's where a behaviorist can help you, and some trainers can as well (I've seen trainers who are clueless about dog body language, and I've seen ones who are extremely good at it.)

 

Just my quickie thoughts (I'm on the run here...)

[INU]

I read this post before I went out and I was thinking about it on the road back home. I tried to think as Angel, who was a stray for some time. If I were a dog like that, picked up by some nice lady who fed me for three weeks and then took me to this unknown place where this 'evil' stick some sharp things in my leg, touched everywhere on my body... I would try to stay calm for this nice lady because I trust her and obviously there isn't much chance of me getting out of this evil's hands. My Jazzy does this too. She tolerates so well when she knows she is not going to get her way or if she is restrained.

 

Finally the painful shots and all the touching are done, my mommy says let's go home! Yeay! The evil comes back and want to do something to me again! "Don't you dare do that again" that's what I would say to him. Especially now I am off the exam table and have a better chance getting away.

 

I am not behavionist or trainer, just trying to think like a dog. Only thing I am sure is that Angel is lucky to find you! Sounds like you have been around dogs for a long time and your family is supportive. I would switch a vet for Angel for sure though. Good luck!

[kevinb]

Please do not decide Angel's fate based on one incident. My BC Peg is extremely leery of the two vets that see her regularly ( plus the office staff). This is after spending a week in the office as a puppy. She is now 4 years old. Get to know Angel better, some behavior is hard to correct. I know my dog is fairly anti-social and doesn't like kids. My solution to this problem is a muzzle when the nieces come to visit. Out in public, Peg is only off leash when we go out to play frisbee and she is so focused on the frisbee that nothing disturbs her.

As far as the vets recommendation I cant believe he would say to put the dog down after being growled at.

[Sue R]

This post makes me think of something I have done with my two Border Collies.

 

Since they first came into our family (one at seven weeks and one at seven months), we have made it a point to stop by the vet's office when in the area, for no reason at all other than to pop in, check weights, get a biscuit, and socialize.

 

Both dogs are eager to go in the office, eager to enter the exam room, crazy about the vets and staff, and very relaxed for exams and handling. We also did handling exercises with the one pup when he was in puppy class.

 

Now our vets offer a puppy socialization class at their facility, which I think is both a wonderful idea for the socialization of the pups with other pups and people, but also accustomes the pups to visiting the vets' office as a fun activity.

 

I find that when I take them there (and I try to take them in whenever I can, picking up wormer, flea control meds, etc.), they are eager and excited to go in. Mind you, they have had shots and one was there after being struck by a car, so not all experiences have been "positive" but the positive ones outweigh the negative ones.

 

There is virtually never I time I go there where I am not complimented on their behavior and attitude. Like everything else, it has taken some effort but the work has paid off handsomely. While everyone else's dog is pulling them OUT of the vet's office, mine are pulling me IN!

[Doug Boyder]

Just brought Chardi back from the Vet tonight. She was having her third eyelids examined for allergic conjunctivitis, which now appears to be cured *yay*!!! Our Vet gave Chardi lots of dried liver and (human) chocolate, and allowed himself to be licked all over the face througout the examination.

 

Perhaps you should ask your Vet to make examinations a little more pleasurable for your Border Collie. Or else.

[Sue R]

I understood that chocolate was toxic to dogs. Our friend's Lab ate a bag of Halloween chocolates and has never been the same (mentally) since.

 

Did the vet maybe feed chocolate-flavored or carob-flavored treats? I thought that you should NEVER feed chocolate to dogs.

[Pippin]

Chocolate is toxic to dogs and can be fatal if large amounts are consumed. I can't believe this was a vet of all people giving that to a dog if that is the case. Hopefully it was chocolate flavored or carob flavored treats as you suggested. It's amazing the things people don't know are harmful for dogs to eat.

 

I know Nylabone makes a bone with a real chocolate layer underneath the layer that will be consumed and I don't think that's something they should make. Supposedly the dog can't reach it through the top layer but I'm sure a strong chewer could.

[Laura's Angel]

Originally posted by Laura's Angel:

I am new to owning a border collie. I have a golden retreiver, a black lab, a Heinz 57, and now a border collie. All my dogs have been rescued dogs from humane societies except for the border collie that followed me home 1 month ago.

The dog was emaciated and followed me 3 miles into one of my 10-mile walking treks. I had planned to take her to the local humane society (a no-kill facility) but decided to keep her as she seemed like such a wonderful animal that got along well with my husband, children, and the other dogs.

I did not know what kind of dog she was until I took her to the vet last week (since no one claimed her). Angel had blood work, shots given, and was prodded in all orafices. She was very tolerant of these activities. My vet informed me of her breed, how intellegent BCs are, and told what a beautiful animal she was. Just as we were exiting the office, the vet reached around the dog toward her rear, and Angel gave the most viscious growl I had ever heard (aimed at the vet). Much to my surprize, the vet quickly began discussing the need to put this dog down as she was too unpredictable and could harm someone since she was not being provoked when she growled at him.

I told the vet that I would discuss his concerns with my husband before I made any quick decisions about the fate of this animal. I am always very careful with any of my dogs around the children anyway. I love this animal but I do not want to ignore warnings of a distressed dog that could harm anyone.

Does anyone have any experience with how this matter should be handled? I presently have no intention to destroy this animal. She has been nothing but wonderful with my family and me.

Update Regarding Angel-Thanks to everyone that responded to "Angel's Fate"! Angel will continue to live with the family and will hopefully have a happy, healthy and long life with us. Angel will be attending training beginning next month, as I have done with all my other rescued babies. She continues to be nothing but wonderful although we will always keep a watchful eye out, again, as we do with all the other "babies". The vet in question did call me back later to state that he would continue to provide medical care for her should I continue to keep her. I think he may have even realized that maybe he jumped the gun a bit. I am just glad I didn't. Thanks again to all! I look forward to new adventures with my border collie, a breed that I am starting to learn so much about!

Laura

[emmetteabrakai]

Glad to hear that Angel is going to stay. And you are giving her a chance. My own dog bite me once during a fight when he was protecting him self from being attacked, missed and got me. He was the kindest most gentle dogs with people, and cats. He was less then wonderful with other dogs until he got to know them. The ferocity in which he fought that day was staggering. I know he was not a vicious dog in the over all sense but he certainly opened my eyes to what he could be capable of. Keep an eye on her and maybe do some research on body language etc. Ange lcould have been wary because of some bad expericnce from previous encounters at the vet.

 

Chocolate can be harmful in large amounts depending on the weight of the dog. It can be fatal but it isn't always. I don't remember the exact component that is toxic. And the darker the chocolate the more toxic it is. Dark baking chocolate is the worst from what I understand. I don't think the vet was ignorant or dangerous, may be more laid back.

[juliepoudrier]

Andrea is right. It's the theobromine in chocolate. I had a boss whose dog ate M&Ms with no ill effects. That said, I don't think I'd take the chance, as I'd hate to find out the hard way that I had a dog sensitive to theobromine.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

My vet says some some dogs are more sensitive to that ingredient in chocolate than others, and that it occurs in candy and other foods in varying degrees (depending on concentration of cocoa bean). Definitely an experiment you don't want to inflict on your dog, as the reaction varies from nothing to stomach upset, to seizures and death.

 

On the growling, my best working dog would be dead by now many times over if growling at the vet were worthy of a death warrant. I don't know what his deal is - he's the sweetest dog but let a vet get in his face and he feels the need to complain about it. I just had his eyes examined and the specialist was very amused - he stood perfectly quiet for her but kept up this running commentary while she stared into his eyes. She does a lot of work with Border Collies and said it is quite common for them to have a lot to say during an exam.