mystiqview Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Does anyone have any articles on colour and breeding. I have a chocolate male who is by a choc Tri colour dam and chocolate sire and thinking of mating down the track with blue bitch who is from blue parents. Both dogs are of dark coat and as far as pedigrees can tell, do not have the merle gene. Some say I will get black and white, others do not know. I am not planning to breed for colour, just dont want something like lilac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karrider Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Originally posted by mystiqview:[QB] Does anyone have any articles on colour and breeding. I have a chocolate male who is by a choc Tri colour dam and chocolate sire and thinking of mating down the track with blue bitch who is from blue parents. Both dogs are of dark coat and as far as pedigrees can tell, do not have the merle gene. Some say I will get black and white, others do not know. I am not planning to breed for colour, just dont want something like lilac A chocolate dog not carrying dilute mated to a blue dog not carrying chocolate will only give you black/white or tri colour puppies (depending on if the tri gene is on both sides of the pedigree.) If the chocolate carries blue and the blue carries chocolate you will get pups in all colours black chocolate blue lilac The merle gene is dominant so one parent would have to be merle to produce it, so no worries there regards karin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Boyder Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 The litter should produce Black/White puppies. Both Blue (dd) and Chocolate (bb) are recessive, and will have to be present in both parents to be expressed in phenotype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenfitzh20 Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Excellent place to get info on color is at http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Here's an excellent website that explains color genetics: http://www.mastamariner.com/border_collie_colours_page.html Blue is a diluted black. If it happens that your dog is carrying the recessive dilute gene and the blue bitch is carrying a recessive red gene, then it is possible to get lilac, which is a diluted red dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystiqview Posted September 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Originally posted by rtphokie:Here's an excellent website that explains color genetics: http://www.mastamariner.com/border_collie_colours_page.html Blue is a diluted black. If it happens that your dog is carrying the recessive dilute gene and the blue bitch is carrying a recessive red gene, then it is possible to get lilac, which is a diluted red dog. Do not know about the recessive red gene. WHile the Skye's sire and dam are blue, mostly beind that is black and white except until you get about the 5th generation there are some blue dogs. Milo is from a choc/Tri dam and a choclate sire. Behind those are matings (on both sides) of either a black/white to a choclate or choclate Tri. (think Milo may be phantom choclate tri as he has rust/tan on his hocks) The only thing I do not want to have is lilac puppies. Even Choclate Tris can no longer be registered here. Do not know whether it would be safer to mate the bitch to a black dog (say maybe carrying chocolate or not) then if a puppy is worth keeping mating that back to milo. THoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 How do these dogs work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Boyder Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Does anyone actually have a lilac Border Collie? I've never seen one. I think you can register a lilac or chocolate tri, but you can't show them in Conformation. Nothing can prevent them from working, or competing in sporting events... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystiqview Posted September 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Originally posted by Doug Boyder:Does anyone actually have a lilac Border Collie? I've never seen one. I think you can register a lilac or chocolate tri, but you can't show them in Conformation. Nothing can prevent them from working, or competing in sporting events... According to the ANKC website, you can only register normal black Tri. It does not say that Chocoalte Tri can be registered. I believe that there was a rule change some years past when you could register a chocolate tri. Lilac, I do not know. I know they arent favoured as they are too dilute The web link someone else posted shows a lilac coloured dog. http:www.mastamariner.com/border_collie_colours_page-02.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Okay, I'll be a little more blunt. Color selection should not even come into consideration when breeding Border collies, with the possible exception of not breeding merle to merle. Working ability is the only legitimate criterion that should be considered. I realize that these are two Australians discussing coloration, and that Border collies are different down under, but for everyone else reading this board, please, don't think that this is a legitimate discussion of how Border collies should be bred. Working registries -- the ABCA, ISDS, and CBCA -- don't have any restrictions on colorations of the pups they register. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karrider Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 To have a look at a lilac border collie, who is a different colour,lovely to look at and can work!! click on the link, Laura also works Ghost a slate merle who is also competing in trials http://www.caninecunning.com/Mist.htm Karin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystiqview Posted September 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 Originally posted by Bill Fosher:Okay, I'll be a little more blunt. Color selection should not even come into consideration when breeding Border collies, with the possible exception of not breeding merle to merle. Working ability is the only legitimate criterion that should be considered. I realize that these are two Australians discussing coloration, and that Border collies are different down under, but for everyone else reading this board, please, don't think that this is a legitimate discussion of how Border collies should be bred. Working registries -- the ABCA, ISDS, and CBCA -- don't have any restrictions on colorations of the pups they register. Bill, The blue bitch works very nicely in obedience. I do not participate here in herding trials. The male (who at this stage is only 5 months) is showing excellent promise for obedience. I have competed in the three sheep trials here, and they are different breedings to the ANKC dogs.. and for herding ability they win hands down as far as dogs here go. Generally speaking the fluffy ones just don't measure up unless they are in a show ring (not my interest either). I stress that both dogs will not be mated unless they pass their health tests (ie: hips/elbows/eyes, they have good CL clearance back to 5G on the bitch and 7G on dog). Here, there are limitations on what you can register to colour. Lilac and Chocolate Tri being two. Lilac I definately do not want as their so called inherited problems or possible problems. Hence my questions regarding colour. I am not breeding for colour. I want to prevent unwanted colours. I am gathering as much information as possible on colour so as to avoid a possible conflict later down the track. Heck there are no definate plans to breed these two dogs. There is that option. But the option should be based on what is likely to result rather than doing because its available. As far as I know, both dogs do not carry merle gene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparty Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 it is a worry that some people express the opinion that border collies who dont herd are not real border collies, well that may be what they were bred for but it is not the only thing they are good for!!! Dogs that herd are not superior over dogs who are flyball wonders, agility stars or best friends those dogs are using the same inherited intelligence and athleticism as the ones who herd, not everyone is interested in running sheep or other stock but enjoy the challenge and fun a BC can bring.. it is like saying mankind is inferior now we cant go club animals to death as was our origins (no religious disrespect intended) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparty Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 btw I have a blue/white and a black/white and the blue beats the black hands down in obedience and flyball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigD Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Sparty - A Border Collie was and should only be bred for working ability on stock. Period. If you want to breed a dog for agilty, flyball, obedience and/or confirmation ability - call it something else. I will be the first to stand up and say my dog is no longer a "Border Collie" because he does not work stock. If that means I can help preserve the true "breed" - I would do it. To come on the ABCA sponsored boards and say Dogs that herd are not superior over dogs who are flyball wonders, agility stars or best friends those dogs are using the same inherited intelligence and athleticism as the ones who herdis a bit confrontational, don't you think? Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparty Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 possibly, but to deny they are border collies is a bit confrontational as well, why not say they are herd dogs as a seperate breed instead of border collies if it is that horrific that they do other things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Who said they aren't border collies? I just said that color considerations aren't a legitimate consideration in breeding decisions, with the possible exception of not breeding merle to merle. And actually, these boards are sponsored by the US Border Collie Club, not the ABCA. The USBCC oppposes conformation showing and breeding, but encourages owners of Border collies to participate in lots of other activities. http://www.bordercollie.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigD Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Yes Bill, that's what I meant to link to, but after 12 hours in front of the computer editing video all day, my brain was fried. And Sparty - call them whatever you want. But read my post - Border Collies should be BRED for working ability on stock. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystiqview Posted September 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 It sounds the colour question has been taken by some the wrong way. My dogs are from primarily show lines, however they have strong obedience/agility capabilities. Herding dogs (ISDS or similar) and show dogs are two vastly different groups in Australia. Much I would presume as it is overseas. The ANKC does not recognise the working sheep dogs and vice versa. Even amongst the working sheep people here, dogs which lack pigment (no matter how good the parents working ability is) are frowned upon and I know of cases where they have been drowned at birth. The question of colour comes NOT from wishing to breed colour, but to avoid severe dilutions of colour. Both dogs show very good capabilities in their chosen field of obedience/agility, which is the reason behind the thought of breeding the two. However as they are coloured dogs, there is that to be considered as well. If the board does not wish other people who are not members of the working sheep fraternity (which I am also a member of in OZ), then it should be restricted to those members and not be an open forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan M. & Skipper, Annie and Ben Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Here in the USA, there is a fear of losing the border collie as we know it and that is a very real fear. The working border collie is an amazing animal and its loss would be tragic. Where are the rest of the mentors tonight, Bill? Meeker? Wherever you all are, don?t leave the boards to the likes of kindly but not-so-experienced me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 SParty, One of the main problems that we're facing here in North America is that it is only relatively recently that the AKC has started to recognize the Border collie. I believe it started in 1995. In the years since then, it has kept its studbook open to dogs registered with the ISDS and ABCA. For reasons that are a somewhat confusing blend of political and practical, the ABCA has been unable to prevent dogs from being registered with both registries. Only this year it adopted a position that any dog with its conformation Championship would be ineligible to have any future offspring registered with the ABCA. The AKC initially proposed a two-year period for open studbooks. Since that time it has been extended at least once, and I believe that the parent club is asking that it remain open permanently. So, while there the same division exists in terms of the vision for where the breed should be going, the division in the gene pool is being artificially postponed by people who want to delude themselves into thinking that they can breed lilac and champagne and other designer color Border collies and not compromise working ability. The reason that I respond as strongly as I do to this type of discussion is that I don't believe that it should have any place in the breeding of Border collies. As far as I'm concerned, you're perfectly welcome to discuss it here, but you shouldn't expect that your approach to the breed won't be challenged. I believe that you could probably find other forums that are populated by more members more sympathetic to your concerns and questions, but frankly, I sort of enjoy having an occasional look into your world. But that doesn't mean I won't call it as I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Boyder Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 The Border Collie has a history of herding sheep since 126BC. I don't think a few decades of Conformation/Sports breeding has completely ruined the breed, but I certainly don't think it has done much good. Coat colours are interesting, particularly in the Border Collie, but it is a poor substitute for a working sheep dog. I actually agree with a few of the things Bill has to say these days, despite his bluntness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Karin, Awesome pictures of Mist on the beach working sheep Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karrider Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Yes she is a lovely girl, if you read the rest of the pages you would have seen Loeki, he was a rescue dog with 7 homes before Laura took him, sadly he passed away a week ago from an unexplained fit, a sad end for a lovely dog Karin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystiqview Posted September 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 My question on colour was to prevent the dilution. If you have two very sound dogs in obedience/agility abilities, and the breeding of two dogs could produce an undesired colour such as lilac which is a very serious dilution problem, wouldn't you be asking the question whether this is a wise breeding or not? I do not know where my question has so been turned around that the only reason I was breeding these two dogs was FOR THE COLOUR when it IS NOT!!!! We all know not to breed Merle to Merle because of problems. I know the two dogs ability and they are both very good which is the reason for the mating. However one also has to consider such things as the diluteness of the two dogs. I made it clear in my first post that I was basing my breeding on colour, but on the ability of these two dogs. It amazes me that how it has been so turned around by some that it is NOW THE REASON FOR THE MATING WHEN ITS NOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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