jennyhall Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 help! over the past ten days my beautiful 2 year old red & white collie has lost most of his facial muscle. He is otherwise in good health., eating well, very lively, good coat etc. The vet is baffled - sugested a tumour, but disgarded this as heath otherwise so good plus no other symptoms, or maybe a nerve injury. Jordi has been put on steroids for the next ten days and I am seeing a chiropractic next week but it is very frightening - he looks awful. Please can anyone help. Jenny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajarrel Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 The possibility that came to my mind when I read your message is Bell's palsy. I have no idea how common this is in dogs (I only have experience with this in humans) but found an abstract to a case study that apparently has pictures: http://www.lyme.org/JSTD/v2n2_95.html Maybe you can check this out. Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 Just learned this from Tick-L: apparently some tick borne diseases can cause facial muscle loss. I would have a tick disease panel done ASAP. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajarrel Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 Julie, that's the connection the website I refer to makes. But to my knowledge, Bell's palsy is multifactorial in nature so absence of tick exposure wouldn't necessarily rule it out as the problem. Jenny, you might want to look at human websites that address this problem if you can't find helpful canine websites. Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennyhall Posted April 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 Thanks for the responses. I'm going quietly nuts having spent most of the day searching the web. Problem seems that everything I read about refers to other symptoms, ie problems with eating etc - there just doesn't seem to be any. When he goes back to the vets next week I will mention ticks but I've never noticed any - he is groomed very regularly and I don't live in an area where there are many other animals . Jordi has spent the last hour trying to get the marrow out of a large bone so it obviously doesnt hurt at all - he doesnt appear paralysed in his face - there just arent any muscles Jenny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajarrel Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 Don't focus *too much* on ticks - ask your vet about "Bell's palsy." Dogs get Bell's palsy from tick borne diseases but they can get it from other viruses or factors that damage the cranial nerve. *People* with Bell's can have either paralysis or weakening of the facial muscles and typically don't have problems swallowing. At least in humans, the prognosis for partial or complete recovery is fairly good, even without treatment . . . Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 Hi Jenny - sorry to hear about your dog. There are a couple of other things that you can check out as well. There is an autoimmune disease that causes muscle mass loss in the head of dogs - and it usually causes the dog to have a problem opening its mouth wide as well. A friend's dog got to the point that it couldn't open its mouth wide enough to pick up the tennis ball. (was a cocker, so it didn't take much for the dog not to be able to open its mouth wide enough to pick up the ball. That's what clued her in to something was wrong. The other thing is muscle mass loss is one of the symptoms of hypothyroid. This is one of the symptoms that my dog had. I noticed it on his head first, but then when I went over his whole body I noticed loss of muscle mass along his spine as well. Best of luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 Kim, I have to disagree a bit here. I think Jenny should specificaly ask for a tick panel for her dog. Although the muscle wasting *may not* be caused by tick-borne disease, it could be, and many TBDs present very subtle symptoms, and unfortunately, once the symptoms become obvious treatment becomes much more difficult. If It were me, I would pay the $$ for the panel just for peace of mind. Jenny, if you have a good relationship with your vet, you can talk him/her into looking for other causes of muscle loss. If it were me, I wouldn't want to be waiting around ruling out other possible causes when I could have the results of a tick panel back in 24-48 hours.... Just my opinion of course. And Jenny, the ticks that carry TBDs are very small and could easily go unnoticed. Mice carry the ticks, so you don't have to live in the middle of the woods to have exposure. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajarrel Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 I didn't mean to imply that she shouldn't ask for a tick panel. Instead, I was suggesting that she shouldn't only ask about *ticks* because tick borne diseases may not be prevelant in England and the dog could still have Bell's palsy. Edit: I did find a website showing Lyme's incidence in England: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol6no4/smithG.htm Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 North of 49---do you know the name of the autoimmune disease that you mentioned?---and with this disease, does the dog function well otherwise as the original poster mentioned? Thanks. Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastisclear Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 When was the dogs last rabies shot??? Many dogs have some pretty strange reactions to this and other vaccines. This may not be a popular comment.. but none the less true!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennyhall Posted April 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 Thank you all again for your help. Something called Eosinophilic Myotosis has been suggested and this does fit the muscle atrophy symptoms. However it usually includes problems with opening the mouth and he doesn't seem to have that. No one Ive spoken to seems to be able to give me details of cause, treatment or prognosis so please help further if you can Many thanks Jenny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 Jenny, Can your vet refer you to a vet school for a second opinion/consult? I don't know how things work in England, but here if I were concerned about diagnosis, I would ask my vet for a referral to the nearest veterinary school. Is that an option? Here in the US, vets also have access to online consultations through Vetline, I think it's called (they pay for this service, but it allows them access to state-of-the-art information from veterinary specialists they might not otherwise be easily able to get). If the UK has something similar then maybe you can talk your vet into finding more information on eosinophilic myotosis that way. If your vet is completely resistant to exploring other posible diagnoses, then I would find another vet. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 Jenny - yes that is the name of the disease I was thinking of, but couldn't name: Eosinophilic Myotosis With my friend's dog, she put him on prednisone for a couple of weeks and then weaned him off. He has had a couple of flair ups, but not for the last 2 or 3 years. It has not been a chronic ongoing problem. As in any autoimmune disease, one of the things that you want to do is try and get the immune system back in balance. Predisone, of course, is a major immune suppressor, that is why it is used so often for autoimmune problems, however, it is a drug that I choose to avoid because of that - sort of a catch 22 situation. It is also a very good anti-inflammatory for other conditions but again it crashes the immune system, making your dog much more susecptible to viral and bacterial infections. BUT it does have its place. For myself, I go more with a holistic approach with me and my dogs. One thing that some people like to do is to put their dog on a course of prednione and see if the problem resolves itself, to indicate whether it is an autoimmune disease of not, then decide on a course of action from there and wean the dog off. My one dog developed an autoimmune problem at 8.5 years of age. She is maintained on Vitamine E and Niacinamide daily and astragulus which is an adoptogen which balances out the immune system. Make sure you rule out any other possible causes as well. Did your vet suggest a thyroid panel? That would be one thing I would want to rule out as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted April 26, 2003 Report Share Posted April 26, 2003 Jenny, Please keep up posted on your dog. It's still really difficult for me to recall all the memories, but 2 years ago, my GSD, Major, approx. 8 yrs. old (he was a rescue), began showing symptoms similar, but not exactly what you described in your dog. The similarties were muscle wasting (not just in the face but all over, and what first drew my attention to any problem, was him opening & closing his mouth). The energy you describe your dog having, wasn't there in Maj's case. Diagnoses went from lupus, to myasthenia gravis (which is similar to Lou Gehrig's disease), & when I had him put down 5 weeks later, his one eye was bulging like a pug dog's. Without extensive & expensive diagnostics,the vet that euthanized him thought it was a brain tumor. Since we never had a conclusive diagnosis on what happened to Maj, I would be really interested in the progress of your pup---and good luck. Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmetteabrakai Posted April 29, 2003 Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 I can truly understand your anxiety about your dogs problem. My older BC had a similer event but only one side of his head and face was affected. I concur with the exploration of tick related problems. but thought I would share Emmetts problem any way. He had a tumor/leison/? on the Tri Geminal nerve sheath(sp?) in his face , causing facial and skull atrophy, and Horners syndrom.(numbness of one side of his nose, eye drooping, trouble swallowing) He was given low doses of chemo( lowmustine) to reduce what ever it was. It completly resolved in several months. The only residual effect is still having a small ammount of difficulty swallowing if he is in a hurry. (at 15+ not so much anymore) Also at the time he had a slight fever, and was somwhat depressed. But he recovered from that long before his facial atrophy cleared up. He saw a neurologist who diagnosed the most likley cause of the problem. I opted not to have a CT, or MRI, as it would not change the treatment or the outcome. It is good to hear all of the great options every one has shared. Makes you want to print it and use it as reference materiel in the future. Keep up the good work guys you always make me think. Andrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennyhall Posted April 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 Thanks Andrea - youre right, it is really helpful to have ideas from other people. The problem at the moment is that nothing really seems to fit. On Friday I have an appointment with a Chiropracter who has an excellent reputation with dodgs & horses so I'm hoping she will find something "mechanical" like a trapped nerve. The trouble is Jordi is so well.We walked for an hour this morning, he chased squirrels, did a bit of obedience training then spent at least an hour trying to get marrow out of a large bone. If you massage his face there is no pain and no paralysis - his eyes & ears still respond & I can still clean his teeth. He just looks like a Borzoi! I think its the not knowing which is the worst, but hopefully all will be revealed next week - he goes back to my usual vet on monday & I'm asking for a referal to the specialist centre at Bristol. Fingers crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennyhall Posted May 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 Cant stop smiling at the moment! Took Jordi to the Chiropractic & remedial massage specialist today - she treats all animals including humans! Within minutes the first thing that struck me was how calm the dog had become - this was a two year old, very boisterous collie who loves meeting new people - & who lay perfectly still on each side whilst his legs, feet & joints were manipulated. He then stood still whilst she manipulated his back from nose to tail. The good news is there appears to be no metabolic / immune problem but she very quickly diagnosed a neck injury at the base of the skull, probabaly caused by Jordi sticking his head through the fence and not ducking as he withdrew it.Apparently there is a lot of heat and bruising and the muscle loss is due todamage of the cranial nerves. The great news is that he should recover. So many thanks for everyones suggestions - it has been a great help in what was a very frighteneing time. Jenny & Jordi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted May 2, 2003 Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 That's great news. Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philologus Posted May 2, 2003 Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 Jenny: That's good news!! When you hold YOUR hands over the affected area can you feel any heat yourself? If one of my dogs is looking a bit "off" the first thing I do is run my hands all over them and I find that my hands can detect hot spots quite easily. When Archie was limping a couple of months ago I couldn't see any obvious problem so I ran my hands over his legs and shoulders and found that there was a lot of heat coming from his front right paw. I narrowed it down to the outside toe. When I got him to the vet they (jokingly) said I could have a job there because I was able to direct them straight to the toe. It turned out that his toe was broken in two places. How he managed to do this walking on the beach is beyond my comprehension - but that's where it happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted May 2, 2003 Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 That's great news Jenny. Did the Chiropracter say anything about using a harness for walking the dog while his neck recovers? My previous BC hurt his neck (don't know how - probably running into something while he was looking the other way - and had to be walked on a harness for some time afterwards to avoid putting pressure on the neck. Just something to consider. Give Jordi a pat from Australia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmetteabrakai Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 Jenny, I am so happy about your dog. The harness is a good idea. My dog hurt is neck a while back and the first thing they told me is to put him in a harness. We joke here at the vet school that the dogs in harness are either cardio or neuro/neck patients. It is a great day when they "graduate" back in to their collars. Well not the pacemaker dogs they get harness for the duration. Anyway It is wonderful that you have such good care close by. Good luck to you both, my dog Emmettes facial and head muscles returned to normal in a fairly short time . I am sure your dogs will too now that you have a diagnosis. Andrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 Jenny - that's so great to hear about your dog! What a relief it must be for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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