Blc Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 My border collie is 8 months old. He has long fur between toes and back heels to where when he goes outside he comes in with clumps of mud on his feet. He was ok with the scissors i was just trying to trim the top part not the bottom part of the pads and he was doing really good Intel my husband walked up and sat down behind him and said his name in a middle of a cut and he bent his paw up and it gave him a slight cut. One little drop of blood but there is a cut on the bottom of the paw now. Its not big but its there. Anyways i stopped and gave him plenty of love and treats to say i was sorry. My husband says hes fine since hes not limping, whining or walking like it hurts and no blood just that drop but i want to make sure it does not get infected and he truly is not hurting and not saying anything. Any suggestions on what to do? Also i tried to trim his nails months ago and he just will not stay still and hates it. He starts to pant bad when trying to do it like under stress. We got him from a pup and has never had any of this done to him before so i know its not troma. Any ideas on both? I dont want to take him to a specialist afraid they will really traumatize him either. I just want him happy and healthy. Grr never had a pup so against these things. Hes a good boy also he kicks at you with his hind paws when trying to trim nails another reason i stopped and won't try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n0mad Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 Just as a note for future reference, if you ever nick him again don't make a fuss about it. If you don't make a fuss, he won't make a fuss. If you make a big deal about it and show him that you are upset it could make him worse. Just keep an eye on the cut, if it isn't bothering him it will probably heal just fine without any extra attention. Groomers accidentally nick dogs all the time, it just happens, and there is almost never a problem with infection. When you do his nails try nipping one nail and give him a little bite of something tasty. Do the next one, a wee treat, etc until his nails are done. Some dogs are just nervous about having the nails done. If you force it by holding him tight or holding him down or make a big deal of it by overly fussing yourself, it can make things worse. If you just approach it as a matter of fact thing, we're just doing this one nail, then one more nail etc followed by something happy it will go a long way to reduce the anxiety. I've had several nail anxious dogs over the years including the collie I have now and this technique has always worked. Soon you will be doing his nails anywhere, anytime without having to give him a treat; it will just be something that happens, no sweat. In the event you accidentally clip a nail to close, just put a spot of blood stop, flour, or cornstarch on it, press for a second or two and move on like nothing happened. Again, if it doesn't bother you, it is less likely to bother him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 I always apologize to my dogs if I accidentally hurt them during nail trimming or anything else. I agree that it is best not to make a big fuss about it, but to give a little petting and niceness as an apology is only right. I don't want my dog to think that I did it on purpose, or that I didn't notice, or that I don't care. It's the same as when I accidentally bump into one of them or step on a paw. It is only right to make sure the dog knows that you care. From what you say I wouldn't worry a bit about the little cut on the paw, though. Just keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't get infected. As for the nail trimming you might try a rotary tool. I had one dog who absolutely wouldn't allow her nails to be trimmed with clippers, but who permitted the rotary grinding tool just fine. The advantage to using it is that you can keep a close eye on what you are doing and stop when you get close to the quick, so you run much less chance of hurting them. Do make sure that if your dog has any long hair you keep it out of the way, though! Adding in a lot of nice talk and a treat after each nail is a good idea, so try that. But don't worry about his getting too traumatized if you take him to have his nails done professionally. I have found that with some dogs it's better to get them done by someone else because then the association is not with me, and I have had the experience of seeing a dog who fought like crazy when I tried to do it and then acted passive about it when the vet tech or groomer did her nails. You just gotta do what ever works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blc Posted January 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 Thank you both for your replys! I will not make as big of fuss about if i do it again. Also i got a Rotary tool for Christmas and as soon as it turn on he runs away and i can't get him. I have a little chuhuahua that he copys after most the time so i showed him she uses it fine and still nothing. I did not have treats though because i tell them if they get pretty for me they get treat after so i will try treat during next time. I finally went and got my hand file for my nails and he sat there and handed me his foot! He trys to chew on it when i use it a little but let me work on one nail. It just will take to long to do all of them. I will try the treat method tonight and see if it works! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n0mad Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 Try spending a few days running the rotary tool during his meal times. Start out farther away and move a little closer each time. Eventually he should associate the noise with something good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted January 3, 2020 Report Share Posted January 3, 2020 8 hours ago, D'Elle said: I always apologize to my dogs if I accidentally hurt them during nail trimming or anything else. I agree that it is best not to make a big fuss about it, but to give a little petting and niceness as an apology is only right. I don't want my dog to think that I did it on purpose, or that I didn't notice, or that I don't care. It's the same as when I accidentally bump into one of them or step on a paw. It is only right to make sure the dog knows that you care. Woman after my own heart. I do the same thing and for the same reasons. I think there's a distinct difference between offering a sincere apology and making a fuss about it. Not sure I can easily put it into words but I think most people can appreciate the difference, just as we'd do with children. When it comes to nail trimming, whether with clippers or a rotary tool, desensitization often has to be approached very slowly with tiny, incremental extensions of exposure. You may well have to show him the clipper or the tool (not turned on; the noise from these alone is enough to freak a lot of dogs out) from enough of a distance that he doesn't react, then click and treat (I hope you're using clicker training for this) for the merest glance at it. Then baby steps forward. There's plenty of more detailed info both on these Boards and on the internet free for the searching. But the key here is not to delay the treats until after he complies. The idea is that you want to change his emotional response to the trigger, and the only way you can do that is before he's had to put up with it. As for having someone else do the clipping, I don't understand the psychology of it, but other people can often handle dogs with less reaction from them than if we try to do it ourselves. It's one of the justifications for vets/techs taking the dog out of the exam room away from the owner to perform scary procedures like drawing blood or giving shots. For one thing the vets, techs, groomers, etc. are probably bringing less emotional baggage into the experience than we are. it's understandable that we're probably more invested in wanting to prevent our own dogs from having a negative experience and they can already sense it in us before we even begin. Just like kids, whose teachers can get away with things that parents often have trouble with. Last thing I want to mention -- but definitely not the least -- is that border collies seem to be genetically programmed to an aversion to having things done to their feet. Most dogs don't like it, but most can be more easily desensitized to it too. I actually just had this conversation with the groomer today when I took one of my own dogs in today to have his nails clipped. Bodhi put up much less resistance with him than he does with me, and the groomer has never hurt him (unlike me who's managed to quick him on several occasions when he tried to yank himself away), though he still gravitated to the exit in hopes of escape. LOL I commented that though it was probably all in my head I thought even though few dogs really enjoy having their nails cut/feet handled that it seemed to me that border collies were more sensitive about it than most dogs. The groomer wholeheartedly concurred that border collies are far and away much worse about it than most other types of dogs. Typical border collie over achievement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted January 3, 2020 Report Share Posted January 3, 2020 My dogs hate it when it’s nail trimming time if I do it. I started to take them to the groomers about 6 months ago. 1. They know how to do the job fast, they are good at it, and they can get it done without hurting them. 2. They have a grooming table. Those things are amazing. I used to put my border collies on my friends grooming table and had no issues with trimming their nail. They learn to just stand and accept it with treats. 3. I think it’s better for the dogs. Val hates his feet being handle. I’ve tried handling them since puppyhood. Playing with his paws while he sleeps, while he is eating, etc... it is still a nope in his book. Cressa and Parker just hate nail time. If the groomer can get it done in 3-5 minutes vs the 10-15 minutes it takes me to find the supplies, plus the getting one dog at a time the other dogs KNOW what’s happening, struggle doing each paw.... etc. I think it’s better for them to just get it done and over with faster than a drawn out battle. in regards to cutting his pad. I’m not sure where you are located but just remember it if you take him for a walk. Some people or business will use salt for icy sidewalks with could make it hurt. I think of it like a paper cut it might not bleed but you sure feel it when you cut lemons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n0mad Posted January 3, 2020 Report Share Posted January 3, 2020 Quote As for having someone else do the clipping, I don't understand the psychology of it, but other people can often handle dogs with less reaction from them than if we try to do it ourselves. It's one of the justifications for vets/techs taking the dog out of the exam room away from the owner to perform scary procedures like drawing blood or giving shots. For one thing the vets, techs, groomers, etc. are probably bringing less emotional baggage into the experience than we are. it's understandable that we're probably more invested in wanting to prevent our own dogs from having a negative experience and they can already sense it in us before we even begin. Just like kids, whose teachers can get away with things that parents often have trouble with. The dogs don't know what to expect from a stranger, they do know their owners well and how they typically react. The groomer or vet won't apologize to the dog beyond a "Whoops, sorry Buddy" and will just go on to the next toe. The dog understands that no reaction from the person means it's probably not a big deal. I used to groom dogs professionally and would often ask the owners to leave the room. The owners would come in with an "oh no, he's not going to like this" attitude and the dog would totally work off of their fear. As for Border collies being the worst, that was never my experience. You can reason with a collie "I trust you, here have a treat, now you trust me". Shih tzus and cocker spaniels on the other hand, would gladly put holes in you, sometimes just for looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted January 3, 2020 Report Share Posted January 3, 2020 7 minutes ago, n0mad said: As for Border collies being the worst, that was never my experience. You can reason with a collie "I trust you, here have a treat, now you trust me". Shih tzus and cocker spaniels on the other hand, would gladly put holes in you, sometimes just for looking. The groomer I spoke to wasn't talking about dogs' responses to having things done, just that he felt border collies tended to be more nervous, and consistently nervous, than many other kinds of dogs about having their feet in particular handled. Although my own experience is very limited, especially in regard to other breeds/types, FWIW it does fit with what I've observed. But, again in my own experience, the collies don't tend to react as aggressively to what makes them nervous. Plenty of exceptions to that though, I suspect, but it's 2 different issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n0mad Posted January 3, 2020 Report Share Posted January 3, 2020 Quote The groomer I spoke to wasn't talking about dogs' responses to having things done, just that he felt border collies tended to be more nervous, and consistently nervous, than many other kinds of dogs about having their feet in particular handled. Although my own experience is very limited, especially in regard to other breeds/types, FWIW it does fit with what I've observed. But, again in my own experience, the collies don't tend to react as aggressively to what makes them nervous. Plenty of exceptions to that though, I suspect, but it's 2 different issues. Oh, yes, I see what you mean, thank you for the clarification. Yes, Border collies can be a little nervous. They're kind of weird all over, lol. Part of why I love them so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blc Posted January 3, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2020 I was raised with training pups different then some people so im glad i found this site to help me with my first border collie who is totally different then the chihuahuas, papillons, dash hounds, cocker spaniels and poodles. He learns close to the way my chihuahua does when it comes to tricks but grooming has been different. I say lets get pretty and he will brush his teath without problems but thats were it ends everything else has been no im scared. Even water for baths. I don't mind doing all my self but before it gets to were it can cause them problems like really long nails i will take to groomers. I also trained a lab and she was good but when older loved her soak at the groomers bath because it helped her arthritis intel the groomer cut a chunk of skin off hind quarters. After that i try not to take any. I tried rotary tool last night i turned it on a ways away and he came over to look at it. As long as i kept it still he was good and kept trying to grab it or lick it. When moved down to foot he was im out of here. The treat method helped to were i got him to come over and allow for tool to be moved down to feet just can't grab them yet. I will keep trying. Thank you for help everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted January 3, 2020 Report Share Posted January 3, 2020 3 hours ago, Blc said: The treat method helped to were i got him to come over and allow for tool to be moved down to feet just can't grab them yet. It sounds to me like you're going way too fast. I'd repeat things at a distance until he's not the least bit nervous before moving on to a very tiny step forward. Patience is your friend if you want this to work. Otherwise you'll end up taking 2 or 3 or 4 steps backwards instead of things getting better at all. The end result could well be that he stops trusting you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 I second what GL says above. You are moving much, much too fast if you want to condition your dog to accept the rotary tool. The process should happen very gradually. On day one, you only show it to him and give treats. the next day, you can turn it on but have it farther away from him (unless he moves closer by himself) and give treats. Repeat on days 3 to 7. Don't get it any where near his feet for at least a week. Then, put it close to his feet but NOT turned on. More treats. Do this for a couple or three days. then, turn it on near his feet but do not touch his feet with your hands or your tool. More treats. Do this for a week every day. Any time that he looks scared or moves away, back the whole thing up and start over with the previous step. In other words, if he gets scared when you turn it on near his feet, go back to a few days of having it not turned on and giving treats, then try again. Seriously, if you want this to work you have to move at a glacial pace. If you rush it, you won't have success at all. And when the time comes to touch his feet, do not grab them! You shouldn't be touching his feet at all until he is completely comfortable with the tool being near him and turned on. And then, only touch his foot with one finger, gently. Work very slowly up to being able to take his foot --gently!-- with your hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blc Posted January 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 On 1/3/2020 at 2:42 PM, GentleLake said: It sounds to me like you're going way too fast. I'd repeat things at a distance until he's not the least bit nervous before moving on to a very tiny step forward. Patience is your friend if you want this to work. Otherwise you'll end up taking 2 or 3 or 4 steps backwards instead of things getting better at all. The end result could well be that he stops trusting you. Thank you you are right it was to fast. I stepped it back to where i just placed it on the ground with it off and let him and my chuhuahua come and sniff it. When he started to walk over it without even looking at it i picked it up and he actually did not care what i did with it when it was off. I turned it on and placed it on the ground and he ran away then slowly started to come up and sniff it. I gave him a treat and said good boy. I did this now hes comfortable without a treat with me even putting it on his foot but when it starts to take care of the nail he acts like its causing pressure or something he does not run away he just wants his foot back. I will keep working with him. At least hes not running away. One toe at a time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 On 1/2/2020 at 9:31 PM, SS Cressa said: My dogs hate it when it’s nail trimming time if I do it. I started to take them to the groomers about 6 months ago. 1. They know how to do the job fast, they are good at it, and they can get it done without hurting them. 2. They have a grooming table. Those things are amazing. I used to put my border collies on my friends grooming table and had no issues with trimming their nail. They learn to just stand and accept it with treats. 3. I think it’s better for the dogs. Val hates his feet being handle. I’ve tried handling them since puppyhood. Playing with his paws while he sleeps, while he is eating, etc... it is still a nope in his book. Cressa and Parker just hate nail time. If the groomer can get it done in 3-5 minutes vs the 10-15 minutes it takes me to find the supplies, plus the getting one dog at a time the other dogs KNOW what’s happening, struggle doing each paw.... etc. I think it’s better for them to just get it done and over with faster than a drawn out battle. I had posted a question previously in another post regarding the difficulty of cutting my puppies toenails. I had done them weekly since I had gotten them at 9 weeks. However, one week, all of a sudden, they had a fit about doing it. I tried dremmel, de-sensitizing, treats, etc. etc. I was beside myself over this. My first BC was from a rescue. I got her at 1 1/2 yrs. She was horrible about having nails done -- and at 13, still is. The vet's office had to totally put her out to do them - she fought through the sedation when they tried weak sedation. They believed she probably had a very bad grooming experience; I'm not so sure about that. I knew I didn't want to go through this again with the puppies. I had German Shepherd Dogs for over 25 years and did countless toenails, both clipped and dremmeled, never a problem. I never took any of my dogs to a groomer -- did it all myself, including scaling teeth! THEN, I read this post. You know, sometimes the easiest solution is the hardest to see. I read it and thought -- why not??? So two weeks ago, the pups went to a groomer (individual appointments/individual days). And it went well! So we are doing nail appts. every two weeks for now. I told her I'm not concerned if the nails are not long and she just takes the tips off or just snips some hair on the paws. I just want them to get used to having their paws handled and the clipping. Eventually they will not need to go so often. She knows I want them to have the best experience possible. In fact, I am thinking that eventually I will have them totally groomed maybe 3 or 4 times a year! So thanks, Cressa! I seriously never thought of a groomer -- but now I'm sure glad I read this and I'm sure glad I took them! P.S. I'm guessing you're happy with all this snow we just got!! I'm blaming you for it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted February 10, 2020 Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 Tbh it really was Cressa who got me to start using the groomer. She was 14.5 when we started going. I was worried I might be hurting her with all the manhandling I had to do. She knows how to stand on the grooming table and Ik groomer are way more effective. She ALWAYS knows when I was gonna be doing nails at home. She is also deaf from age. Trying to get her out of the kennel. She would then lay with all of her paws under her. I just didn’t want to fight her anymore and she is really good about laying on the guilt. Since I have to bring her the boys get to have their done also. I was lovin’ the snow!!! Till Parker burned his pad somehow and since he is super dramatic he couldn’t play outside since he has an owie. Then Val came up lame on Saturday. He was fine all day took a nap and woke up only able to use 3 legs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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