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Poch

Neutering

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Poch is 11 months old and these last few weeks has like lots of people before have said lost his brain.  He barks at anything and everything (and for some reason old people) He barks at other dogs lunges at cars and is a nightmare to walk, jumping up at people has gone backwards all in all a nightmare at times However, He is also a sweet loving affectionate dog who loves people visiting, is as gentle as a lamb with my 4 year old granddaughter and can’t bear it if you so much as sneeze to make sure your all right. We took him to the vet and asked about neutering and the vet said not to bother unless he started marking in the house He had never had his own dogs neutered Now I am confused 

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Neutering is linked to increase fear behavior in dogs.   If you  do so definitely do NOT do so while he' sin a fear period.

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I don't know what kind of vet would recommend not neutering a dog at all unless he started marking. That sounds nutty to me, and I would get a different vet. First, there are other reasons to neuter a dog when the time is appropriate for that (which is after growth plates close and not during a fear period). Second, in my experience once a dog starts marking he will continue to do so after being neutered, because neutering doesn't change the male dog's need to mark territory.

As for his behavior, simply go back to square one with the same training you did before (which he now seems to have abandoned) and do it again. And don't sorry, this is not abnormal. Lots of people have to go through training all over again once the dog reaches a certain stage of development. 

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33 minutes ago, D'Elle said:

I don't know what kind of vet would recommend not neutering a dog at all unless he started marking. That sounds nutty to me, and I would get a different vet. First, there are other reasons to neuter a dog when the time is appropriate for that (which is after growth plates close and not during a fear period). Second, in my experience once a dog starts marking he will continue to do so after being neutered, because neutering doesn't change the male dog's need to mark territory.

As for his behavior, simply go back to square one with the same training you did before (which he now seems to have abandoned) and do it again. And don't sorry, this is not abnormal. Lots of people have to go through training all over again once the dog reaches a certain stage of development. 

Neutering in many countries is illegal. It's not nutty to leave what mother nature put there for a reason. The hormones play an important role. Once they're removed they can't be out back.

Sounds like this pup is in a fear period and just needs to be managed through it. Time, patience and training. As for marking, that too is a training issue. Best to deal with it now before it becomes a learned behavior.  Don't fight nature, allow appropriate marking and don't allow inappropriate.

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How to deal with your dog's behavior and if/when to castrate him are separate issues.

Poch's behavior is not unusual for a dog of his age, neutered or intact.  This a developmental stage (a "phase") and the solution is to continue good training practices and avoid over-stimulation if feasible.  Don't overreact and it will pass.  To put it another way, he is almost a teenager and you know what that means.

If and when to neuter is a more complex subject than many people realize.  I think the consensus here is to wait until the dog is at least two years old for health reasons.  In fact, there is recent research that indicates it may be best for health and longevity not to neuter at all.  Neutering sometimes changes behavior, but not in always predictable and desirable ways.

Every male dog I've ever owned marked, whether castrated or intact.  When and where they mark is a matter of training.  For example, our 9 1/2 year old was neutered before the age of 6 months and he marks.  Our almost 2 year old intact male marks.  But neither of them EVER marks in our house.  The old dog marks outside, but not when he is inside a building, familiar or strange.  The two year old marks a lot outside, and is learning not to mark inside any building.  It really comes down to training.

 

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I walk a neutered mutt who marks a lot. He was neutered by the shelter his owners got him from, and apparently his behaviour did not change (his owners used to visit him at the shelter before they got him, and before he was neutered - so they know what he was like before).

My first border collie was neutered at a very young age (by his previous owners). He didn't mark, but he was fear aggressive and overall a nervous dog. The neutering didn't make him any calmer. 

Like others have said, it is not unusual behaviour for a dog his age and he is probably going through a fear period. 

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16 hours ago, Journey said:

Neutering in many countries is illegal. It's not nutty to leave what mother nature put there for a reason. The hormones play an important role. Once they're removed they can't be out back.

Sounds like this pup is in a fear period and just needs to be managed through it. Time, patience and training. As for marking, that too is a training issue. Best to deal with it now before it becomes a learned behavior.  Don't fight nature, allow appropriate marking and don't allow inappropriate.

I guess I shouldn't have said "nutty"....that was overstating and over-simplifying it. It isn't nutty to leave in place what Nature has there, this is certainly true. I only meant, in a world where overpopulation of dogs causes so much suffering for so many millions of dogs, spaying and neutering only makes sense unless you are in a position to be properly breeding your dog. (Or unless you are living somewhere that it is not allowed. I didn't know that some countries don't allow it.)

 

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There are other ways to sterilize dogs while leaving their hormones intact. Ovary sparing spays (OSS) are simple hysterectomies, removing the uterus while leaving the ovaries. No uterus, no puppies. Or tubal ligations. Sperm can't reach the eggs, no puppies. Vasectomy is an alternative to castration for males; the testicles remain but the vas deferens is cut or tied off so that sperm can't be ejaculated. Again, no puppies.

Not routinely offered in the US (many, maybe most?) vet schools don't even teach the procedures. I know Cornell doesn't because I inquired about it. But information about vets who offer the procedures can be found at the Parsemus Foundation.  https://www.parsemus.org/veterinarian-list/

These options are more readily available in some other countries. A friend in Wales just had an OSS done on one of her dogs.

 

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Kiran's 2.5 and intact.   I see no reason to neuter him.    We, in the US, have been very conditioned to believe that  if an animal in intact it's going to breed.    WE've  also been conditioned to believe  that dogs  can't handle  being in season or around dogs in season without becoming  an uncontrollable maniac.    Neither of those are really true.   Kiran fairly regularly competes and trains around intact bitches,  and while he might be a little more sniffy sometimes, that's about the extent of it.   He's not alone.  Intact is more  common in the sports community and as a result dogs learn to deal.      The same is almost  certainly true in countries where s/n  isn't  the norm - and, in fact and point of  interest,  have almost no  over population problem or unplanned  litters, ever. Norway's a good example.

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Intact males and females is almost never an issue unless females are in heat anyway. That doesn't often happen more than twice a year and responsible owners leave their females at home most of the time during their heats so again, not much of an issue. And ppl should be aware enough of their intact males' behaviors to know whether they're going to be a problem and to manage them accordingly.

It's not rocket science. Like many people, I used to live in a multi-dog household with both intact bitches and dogs . . . and never had an unplanned mating either in or away from my home. :rolleyes:

 

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23 minutes ago, GentleLake said:

Intact males and females is almost never an issue unless females are in heat anyway. That doesn't often happen more than twice a year and responsible owners leave their females at home most of the time during their heats so again, not much of an issue. And ppl should be aware enough of their intact males' behaviors to know whether they're going to be a problem and to manage them accordingly.

It's not rocket science. Like many people, I used to live in a multi-dog household with both intact bitches and dogs . . . and never had an unplanned mating either in or away from my home. :rolleyes:

 

There are places intact and inseason females are allowed to play that  I play - Like UpDog.   Honestly it's just another distraction and he learned to work through pretty fast.

 

"Not rocket science" really sums it up.  (Neither have  I had an accidental breeding - and  I've had intact dogs for a long time,  though I DO spay my females because NADAC doesn't allow dogs in season to play and  I don't want to lose my trial time! LOL)

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14 hours ago, CptJack said:

Kiran's 2.5 and intact.   I see no reason to neuter him.    We, in the US, have been very conditioned to believe that  if an animal in intact it's going to breed.    WE've  also been conditioned to believe  that dogs  can't handle  being in season or around dogs in season without becoming  an uncontrollable maniac.    Neither of those are really true.   Kiran fairly regularly competes and trains around intact bitches,  and while he might be a little more sniffy sometimes, that's about the extent of it.   He's not alone.  Intact is more  common in the sports community and as a result dogs learn to deal.      The same is almost  certainly true in countries where s/n  isn't  the norm - and, in fact and point of  interest,  have almost no  over population problem or unplanned  litters, ever. Norway's a good example.

Both my boys are intact at 10 and 3 1/2 and living in Spain they regularly encounter bitches in season, the older one has absolutely no interest in girls, the younger one loves girls but there has never been a time I have been concerned about an accidental matting. The OP doesn’t say what country she lives in so her vets advice might be the norm, even in the US my vet advised me to keep the oldest one entire for as long as possible and not bother if he wasn’t an annoying boy. She was a breeder of standard poodles and told me she had clearly seen the difference in her puppies between those who were neutered late and those at the standard 6months. But as she admitted this was not advice she gave everyone.

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I think I had a bit of a rigid mind set about this topic....that one should always spay and neuter unless breeding on purpose. I am seeing from what you folks are saying that this is not a cut and dried issue and doesn't have one answer that is right for every dog or situation.

Since it's always good to be informed of other sides and possibilities to an issue about which I am opinionated,  thanks for that info and the more open mind I have about the issue now. :)

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On this topic, I have one boy who is seven and entire.  I have had several people tell me that if I want to keep my entire male healthy, particularly in relation to his prostate, I need to masturbate him, because entire males need to ejaculate regularly for their own health :wacko::blink:

I must be a bad owner because I have never done this.

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2 hours ago, Lawgirl said:

On this topic, I have one boy who is seven and entire.  I have had several people tell me that if I want to keep my entire male healthy, particularly in relation to his prostate, I need to masturbate him, because entire males need to ejaculate regularly for their own health :wacko::blink:

I must be a bad owner because I have never done this.

Ha!  This is suspected to be true of human males, but I've never seen any evidence supporting it for dogs.  And having a dog that is conditioned to seek sexual gratification from humans poses a whole set of new problems.  How do you explain to such a dog that leg humping is appropriate only with some people, LOL?

 

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