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Is he a border collie?

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C6D2B348-1655-4603-A94A-50C7FEC5F23B.thumb.jpeg.f1c13da36b9b95c6feb96e337b54945e.jpegCan anyone tell me if this pup is actually a border collie? Breeder sent me pics of parents, just doesn’t look like any border collie pup i have ever seen. 

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Sorry, but it's just not possible to tell from a photo, especially a photo of a young pup, especially a photo of a young pup lying down.   It's possible that a border collie could have that much white, although it's unusual.  Can you post pictures of the parents?  Do the parents work livestock?  Are the parents registered, and if so, with what registry?  And, do you trust this breeder to tell you the truth about the parents?

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The photo of the Border collie puppy looks very much like mine.  His parents the male was a black and white, the female was a light gray merle, both were ABCA registered.  The breeder told me she had not had a nearly white puppy in 10 years.  She had been breeding border collies since the 1989.  

 

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He could very well be a border collie pup, but like Hooper, seeing pics of the parents would be very helpful.

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She told me these are the parents. Says they have a white one in every litter. The pups face shape and hair pattern is what made me nervous. They would be shipping him to me so would be sight unseen. Thanks so much for your opinions

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Surely they must have some pictures of him with his litter mates? When I requested photos of a puppy I was sent photos of all the puppies suckling together from the Mum, playing together, sleeping in a pile etc.

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This doesn't help much in this situation, but border collies are border collies because of what they do, not how they look.  Do the parents work stock?  Dog sports?  You need some information confirming that you are getting a dog that will act like a border collie.

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The fur pattern is just puppy fluff shedding.  Lots and lots of dogs of all sorts do that, it's just more obvious with him because he's white. 


Doesn't answer the question of BC or Not, but it is why he has that funny widows peak looking thing.   My BC X ACD had it (less obviously), too.  And no, I'm not suggesting your dog is a mix based on it.  Just using my own photo as another example.

 

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More important to me would be whether he hears normally. I'd ask for a BAER test to make sure he hears.

BTW, it looks as if both parents are white factored, so they certainly could produce all- or mostly-white puppies.

That said, if you distrust the breeder, pass on the pup.

Here's my mostly white smooth coat (after rolling in the red dirt):

 

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Also?  These parents have a white pup "in every litter"?  How many litters have these two parents had and why are they being repeatedly bred to each other?  Do either of these parents work livestock?   If the reason you want a border collie is because you love the personality and intelligence of a good border collie, then get a pup from someone who breeds border collies that do what border collies do - work livestock.   I wouldn't worry too much about the white coloring, and the face looks a little narrow for a border collie, but certainly not something that makes me think there's no way he could be a border collie.   But the multiple breedings of the same two parents raises red flags for me - I definitely know good breeders who've repeated a breeding, so that's not a deal breaker.  But I'd want to know what it is about these two parents that makes them such a perfect match that they've been bred together frequently enough that the breeder knows they produce white puppies "in every litter".

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if you feel "nervous" about what the breeder tells you about whether this is the kind of dog it's being billed as, then how much do you trust them on the probably-much-more-important subjects of health and temperament of parents and relatives??? Personally I would not buy a puppy at a distance if I didn't have implicit trust in the whole shebang. There is not really a shortage of border collies or border-collie-type dogs in this world... wouldn't you rather have one that you can be sure (well, as sure as one *can* be in this world) will have the health, personality and temperament/abilities you want, and most importantly NOT have major problems in those departments? JMHO, good luck,

Pat P

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On 8/1/2019 at 9:51 PM, Britb said:

...doesn’t look like any border collie pup i have ever seen. 

I've seen a couple adult border collies that didn't look like any border collie I'd ever seen up to that point (one looked like a miniature greyhound, the other like a completely nondescript mutt) . . . until they got out on the trial field. There was absolutely no doubt whatsoever then that they were border collies.

Too many people forget that border collies aren't defined by what they look like, but by the work they do. So by that standard a very classic looking border collie really isn't, no matter what "papers" it may have, if it can't work livestock. It also means that the occasional mixed and/or other breeds (like working bred bearded collies) that are Registered on Merit are full fledged and legitimately pedigreed dogs, as are their offspring produced by another registered sheepdog.

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Everything GL said.

 

Breed purity and standard appearance in the way most people are used to them from kennel clubs have little bearing on border collies. 


it isn't how they LOOK, but what they do and how, that defines them. 

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My border collie is mostly white with some small black spots.  As I said earlier that my breeder said she had not produced a nearly all white border collie in 10 years.  I saw the parents of my mostly white border collie.  The male was a typical black and white border collie, the female was a light grey merle.   I don't believe the photos of the male and female you posted would produce a white or nearly all white pup.  I don't think they are telling you the truth. I would choose another breeder.  I am not a breeder, but I have three Border Collies.  I am new to the BC boards, but I would very interested in what a Senior Member who is a Border Collie Breeder has to say about that pairing.

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Might be, might not be. I thought mine was all bc, turns out she is half border collie, 1/4 malamute and the other quarter is ACD and aussie. Here she is at about that age and now at almost a year

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Edited by Rigby
Correct typo

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20 hours ago, Jim O said:

My border collie is mostly white with some small black spots.  As I said earlier that my breeder said she had not produced a nearly all white border collie in 10 years.  I saw the parents of my mostly white border collie.  The male was a typical black and white border collie, the female was a light grey merle.   I don't believe the photos of the male and female you posted would produce a white or nearly all white pup.  I don't think they are telling you the truth. I would choose another breeder.  I am not a breeder, but I have three Border Collies.  I am new to the BC boards, but I would very interested in what a Senior Member who is a Border Collie Breeder has to say about that pairing.

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Jim,

I'm a senior member. I don't consider myself a breeder, having bred just a couple litters when I needed a working dog for myself, but I do understand color genetics in border collies. As I noted earlier, both dam and sire appear to be white factored (note the white going up past the stifle in both dogs; and one has white going across the hips). Doubling up on white factor can certainly produce piebald and mostly white dogs. The white dog I posted in my previous post is the product of white factored sire and dam. The dam was obviously white factored; you had to look closely at the sire to see it. I know because I bred him. He had several piebald littermates but they weren't as obvious because both parents also carried the gene for ticking and those pups were heavily ticked, appearing grey across the base white areas.

Bottom line: those two dogs could indeed have produced a mostly white pup. They could also easily produce piebald pups. And they could just as easily produce nothing but classically marked pups.

With your pup it's also possible that what you labeled as merle could have been heavily ticked piebald, unless the breeder clearly stated the bitch was a merle. The sire may have looked classically marked, but I'd be willing to bet he was white factored.

J.

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On 8/6/2019 at 9:11 AM, GentleLake said:

 

Too many people forget that border collies aren't defined by what they look like, but by the work they do. So by that standard a very classic looking border collie really isn't, no matter what "papers" it may have, if it can't work livestock.

Just my comment............While it is absolutely true that border collies are defined  by how they behave rather than how they look, there are border collies that do not have what it takes to work.  Even in a litter bred from working stock and bred for working ability can produce a dog who is too fearful to work or who simply doesn't have enough drive or interest. That would not mean that dog was not a border collie. If the parents and grand parents and so on were all border collies, that dog is a border collie even if she or he doesn't have what it takes to work stock.

My Kit had very classic border collie looks, and very classic BC behavior - stalking, eye, focus, The Stare. No doubt what she was. Work livestock? Not so much. That doesn't mean she was not a border collie.

Sometimes young dogs appear in border collie rescues to be adopted into pet homes because they flunked in the sheep pasture. They are still border collies.

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