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Am I expecting too much from an 8 month old because I am close to breaking point

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Hello, I have indeed posted to this forum before and have received excellent advice and been treated very respectfully I really do appreciate that but I return at a loss..My 8 month year old feels out of control in our home and my anxiety levels are through the roof. i will start off with his daily motions so you get an insight into his stimulation etc...

Comes out crate at 8 am 

30 minute walk in the morning on a long line. Training through out.

Crated at 9 am until 11 am

comes out crate until 12:30pm. Short training, play and encouraged to be calm.

Back in crate until 4:30pm

Comes out and has off lead fetch at field comes home runs around like demon and goes in for a nap around 7pm

Comes out at 8pm - 10pm has a chew and kong, is encouraged to be calm.

So thats his daily routine I dream of a day where he won't be crated so much but he refuses to ever settle he always needs something constantly, He constantly is jumping on the sofas and tv stand, Runs around barking at sounds, Bothers the cats, digs on the sofa and if he is in the garden he just barks at bird sounds and digs under the fences.

I put him in his crate and he looks relieved but he won't sleep outside it, other times I put him to bed he gets frustrated and barks. We also very calmly where timing his bad behaviours out like climbing over everything but when we try lead him in he brats out and bites me and scratches me. My arms are all scared from scratches. I can't tether him to anything or he bites his lead and when I practice settle it becomes a long down and afterwards he put so much mental energy into being calm he starts barking at stuff and being an overtired brat.

The bizarre thing is hes walks are going great, hes getting passed distractions better, his recall has really improved, he loves everyone and every dog and tends to be a very confident pup in a fear stage time but indoors he is driving me insane. I understand hes bored but he has plenty of attention and ignoring him ultimately leads to him doing something where I have to intervene like him knocking the tv over and nearly breaking plant vases. 

Hes becoming more frustrated being timed out leading to more aggression on his side (we are very gentle and do not interact during the timeout)

He knows he can do the same thing he just did to get the treat when redirected.

He won't settle ever period and is destructive when doing so.

We can't leave him in a room alone or he will destroy everything. 

I love my boy I truly do but I am not sure what to, I know its our fault not his but I can't get a moment of life and I am extremely jealous all the other pups from his litter can sleep outside their crate and take down time. Even though he has a very low frustration tolerance he has a lovely nature and just loves EVERYTHING and everyone. Hes gentle with children and the cats, also loves affection. Please, I really don't know what to do at this point. I am running out of energy.   

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imho he needs more "wearing out" like a massive run/games until he is exhausted and doesn't want to do more, i have to take my girl for a 2 hour hike up a mountain every morning, and constantly train/tricks/ball recovery for a couple of hours later on in the day to keep my girl normal. if she misses out on any of those she runs around digging up the  yard or runs around crazy. she's perfect when she's physically and mentally worn out. its what they are made to do. run sheep all day long.

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But he's tired a lot of the time he just doesn't understand how to settle. This just feels like a bad idea and he would become an endurance monster from it. 

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There is a big difference between physically and mentally tired.  I see lots of physical activity with your 8month old but not so much mental activity (teaching tricks/commands, hide&seak with people or toys, etc.).  Your pup may simply be mentally bored.  A mentally bored border collie will seek out mental stimulation and you may not like what they find to do on their own.

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6 hours ago, adadrian said:

its what they are made to do. run sheep all day long.

Except that most sheepdogs do not run sheep all day long, every day. Most of them have plenty of downtime when there's no work to be done and they were developed by canny shepherds who wouldn't have tolerated an out-of-control or destructive dog during their off times. Granted, many (though not all) were/are tied up when not working, they were still expected to be able to go straight to work when they were let loose, not having to spend time getting their jollies off.

To the OP, I agree with Mark; I don't see much in the way of mental stimulation. How are you "encouraging him to be calm"? Have you made any efforts to train an off switch? I'd start mat training ASAP, beginning with short stays on the mat and increasing it as he's able to build tolerance. I'd also try some more mentally stimulating games such as scent work to replace some of the more amped up activities you're currently engaging him with.

I wish you the best and hope you'll give us progress reports.

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37 minutes ago, GentleLake said:

Except that most sheepdogs do not run sheep all day long, every day. Most of them have plenty of downtime when there's no work to be done and they were developed by canny shepherds who wouldn't have tolerated an out-of-control or destructive dog during their off times. Granted, many (though not all) were/are tied up when not working, they were still expected to be able to go straight to work when they were let loose, not having to spend time getting their jollies off.

To the OP, I agree with Mark; I don't see much in the way of mental stimulation. How are you "encouraging him to be calm"? Have you made any efforts to train an off switch? I'd start mat training ASAP, beginning with short stays on the mat and increasing it as he's able to build tolerance. I'd also try some more mentally stimulating games such as scent work to replace some of the more amped up activities you're currently engaging him with.

I wish you the best and hope you'll give us progress reports.

Hello thank you for your response yes we regularly practice place and we also do capturing calmness on the daily. He can do place for a good 20 minutes before he becomes inpatient but still refuses to be calm after he will jus get up and do what he does usually but more intense. We also try in the evenings giving him on chews with no toys and ignore him for periods to see if he will give in. He also knows lots of tricks and like many collies is eager to learn but becomes more brat like after. Lastly when he is beyond reasoning we put him in the crate for a nap normally at this point he is running in and out the crate and won't stay put until we tell him go to bed. Thanks for your response I am determined but also burnt out. 

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I feel your pain and know this has to be frustrating. Other than persistence and patience I don't have much more to offer; you seem to be doing a lot to help him through this. Have you worked with a trainer who might be able to offer some new ideas?

I hope maturity will help and that one day it'll just all click. Some dogs are like that.

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Hi there! I remember answering your question a little while ago about a similar problem, and I'm sorry to hear that things haven't been going too great :(

I agree with the previous posts, especially about what was said re: mental stimulation. My boy is six months now, so we're a few months behind you, but he can be quite the pain when he's lacking in either physical and mental exercise. What I've found helpful is shifting around my schedule so that I can get him tired out right off the bat, since I've noticed that his energy levels skyrocket in the morning and remain pent-up through the day if I don't do something about it pronto. What we do is go out for some fetch so that he can stretch his legs, and combine it with training and socializing. If he gets a few hours out of the crate right off the bat to start his day, I've notice he mellows out tremendously for the rest of the day. Perhaps this is something you could try?

16 hours ago, BorderYogal said:

The bizarre thing is hes walks are going great, hes getting passed distractions better, his recall has really improved, he loves everyone and every dog and tends to be a very confident pup in a fear stage time but indoors he is driving me insane. I understand hes bored but he has plenty of attention and ignoring him ultimately leads to him doing something where I have to intervene like him knocking the tv over and nearly breaking plant vases. 

It sounds like you guys are making great progress here and don't forget to give yourself credit for that! You have an 8mo pup on your hands who is getting better at paying attention, better at coming to you when called, walks well and seems happy and well-socialized. That's a feat in itself and something to celebrate ;)

16 hours ago, BorderYogal said:

He knows he can do the same thing he just did to get the treat when redirected.

He won't settle ever period and is destructive when doing so.

We can't leave him in a room alone or he will destroy everything. 

Same here. I've learned from Tama that the best way to get us both through this period of time is to remind myself constantly that he is a baby, and I wouldn't trust him alone or expect him to listen to me any more or any better than a 5 year old child. But believe me, I know it's so much easier said than done. I've had many moments of becoming so frustrated and so upset and feeling like I can't take it anymore. There have been times that I take him out for a walk and he doesn't listen to me and won't stop pulling on the leash and I'm just there holding back tears the entire time because I've worked so hard and sometimes the progress seems totally invisible. (Meanwhile people are giving me strange looks... 'why is she upset, look at that adorable puppy who could do no wrong'.... :rolleyes:

It is hard! If nothing else, take comfort in the fact that many have struggled and are struggled with very similar issues. Take it easy on yourself too. If your anxiety levels are through the roof and you are running out energy and feel like you can't keep going, it'll be hard to work with him calmly and positively. Nothing feels worse than having to take care of someone else when you feel like you haven't gotten the chance to take of yourself. Hang in there.

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In the past I have had a few people come out for herding lessons.  They will tell me their dog is very fit; able to play fetch for hrs.  In no more than 5 min in with the sheep their dog is exhausted.  Their dog was not mentally fit enough to handle 5min of intense focus and intense mental stimulation.

It is the mental stimulation needs of border collies that many people do not fully expect when they get their first one.  All they have ever been told is how much exercise (physical) these dogs need.

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My boy is 11 months old. Our day goes like this.

He sleeps in his crate, wakes up at 4.30 am and barks. I shout down go to sleep, whereby we get another 1/2 hour before he really gets going and is wide awake. Husband gets up and takes him out at 5.30 for 45 minutes to our local dog park (they are the only ones there at that time).

6.30 till 8.30 he plays, runs around and family play with him. Adult sons and husband go to work.

8.30 till 11.30 he will sleep on and off, follow me around and play and if I go out, he will willingly go in his crate as he will sleep there.

11.30/ noon,  we go for a 1 hour walk.

2 pm to 4 pm, he will sleep on and off depending on whether I am at home, or in crate if I go out.

From 4.30 onwards, sons and husband come home, so more play, training, dinner and then final walk at 7.30 for 45 minutes.

Bed in crate at 10 pm.

He has, over the last month or so, been a lot more chilled and will happily stay on his own downstairs,  whilst before this, we would have to be in the same room as him. He does still require a lot of attention, especially in the evenings, but he has gotten used to there being at least 2 people with him.

 

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4 hours ago, Mark Billadeau said:

In the past I have had a few people come out for herding lessons.  They will tell me their dog is very fit; able to play fetch for hrs.  In no more than 5 min in with the sheep their dog is exhausted.  Their dog was not mentally fit enough to handle 5min of intense focus and intense mental stimulation.

It is the mental stimulation needs of border collies that many people do not fully expect when they get their first one.  All they have ever been told is how much exercise (physical) these dogs need.

 

Yep.


Molly can play run for a really, really long time if temperature's aren't broiling.  She's good for about half an hour of agility training at a time.   It's way more exhausting for her.  Think of it like this:  Is walking for an hour or taking an algebra test for an hour more likely to leave you in need of a nap?  For most people, barring being WAY out of shape?  It's the math test.

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My BC (or mostly BC, who knows) is now just about to turn 5. 


Her routine goes something like this:

 

Wakes up about 6:30 when spouse gets up, goes outside and pees, comes back and comes back to bed with me.

8:00, I get up and feed the dogs, so she gets breakfast.   She follows me downstairs and goes up on the love seat and goes back to sleep while I settle in to work. 

Noon, once I get up and start moving around she and the other BC mix (who is just 2) go outside with me where we do a bit of training with the ball as a reward for about half an hour.

12:30 - back inside, she goes back onto the loveseat or dog bed and goes back to sleep.

5:00 I wrap up work, they get fed dinner and I start cooking dinner.

After dinner (6?) they either go for an off leash run through the woods or swimming. 

7 or so I start pulling dogs out for individual training. obedience, agility, stupid tricks, disc, whatever we're working on, and each one gets a solid 30-45 minutes working on their stuff.


Then they're back to lazing around until bed at about 10. 

Now,  sometimes there's a class, seminar, trial, or competition going on that involves a lot of waiting and a little running, but mostly that's our daily routine.  One stint of hard off leash exercise in the day, a couple of points of training new stuff. What there definitely is not is a lot of frantic activity, all the time.

And I do realize my girl is now middle aged, but this has been the routine - really! - since she was abo ut 6 months old for her. the ACD X BC took longer to chill out and stop yelling about his desire ot do things all the time, but he still got there.


Crazy amounts of activity is not the magic bullet.  Working their brains IS.

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7 hours ago, Mark Billadeau said:

In the past I have had a few people come out for herding lessons.  They will tell me their dog is very fit; able to play fetch for hrs.  In no more than 5 min in with the sheep their dog is exhausted.  Their dog was not mentally fit enough to handle 5min of intense focus and intense mental stimulation.

It is the mental stimulation needs of border collies that many people do not fully expect when they get their first one.  All they have ever been told is how much exercise (physical) these dogs need.

Thank you Mark your posts have been very helpful and I appreciate your advice. I will be incorporating more mental stimulation immediately. Do you think the physical stimulation we give our 8 month old is too much? 

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2 hours ago, CptJack said:

My BC (or mostly BC, who knows) is now just about to turn 5. 


Her routine goes something like this:

 

Wakes up about 6:30 when spouse gets up, goes outside and pees, comes back and comes back to bed with me.

8:00, I get up and feed the dogs, so she gets breakfast.   She follows me downstairs and goes up on the love seat and goes back to sleep while I settle in to work. 

Noon, once I get up and start moving around she and the other BC mix (who is just 2) go outside with me where we do a bit of training with the ball as a reward for about half an hour.

12:30 - back inside, she goes back onto the loveseat or dog bed and goes back to sleep.

5:00 I wrap up work, they get fed dinner and I start cooking dinner.

After dinner (6?) they either go for an off leash run through the woods or swimming. 

7 or so I start pulling dogs out for individual training. obedience, agility, stupid tricks, disc, whatever we're working on, and each one gets a solid 30-45 minutes working on their stuff.


Then they're back to lazing around until bed at about 10. 

Now,  sometimes there's a class, seminar, trial, or competition going on that involves a lot of waiting and a little running, but mostly that's our daily routine.  One stint of hard off leash exercise in the day, a couple of points of training new stuff. What there definitely is not is a lot of frantic activity, all the time.

And I do realize my girl is now middle aged, but this has been the routine - really! - since she was abo ut 6 months old for her. the ACD X BC took longer to chill out and stop yelling about his desire ot do things all the time, but he still got there.


Crazy amounts of activity is not the magic bullet.  Working their brains IS.

Thank you so much. Can you over stimulate a dog mentally? I really appreciate the time you took to post your girls schedule. 

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5 hours ago, Mandy1961 said:

My boy is 11 months old. Our day goes like this.

He sleeps in his crate, wakes up at 4.30 am and barks. I shout down go to sleep, whereby we get another 1/2 hour before he really gets going and is wide awake. Husband gets up and takes him out at 5.30 for 45 minutes to our local dog park (they are the only ones there at that time).

6.30 till 8.30 he plays, runs around and family play with him. Adult sons and husband go to work.

8.30 till 11.30 he will sleep on and off, follow me around and play and if I go out, he will willingly go in his crate as he will sleep there.

11.30/ noon,  we go for a 1 hour walk.

2 pm to 4 pm, he will sleep on and off depending on whether I am at home, or in crate if I go out.

From 4.30 onwards, sons and husband come home, so more play, training, dinner and then final walk at 7.30 for 45 minutes.

Bed in crate at 10 pm.

He has, over the last month or so, been a lot more chilled and will happily stay on his own downstairs,  whilst before this, we would have to be in the same room as him. He does still require a lot of attention, especially in the evenings, but he has gotten used to there being at least 2 people with him.

 

This definitely all sounds very familiar. 

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8 hours ago, tamapup said:

Hi there! I remember answering your question a little while ago about a similar problem, and I'm sorry to hear that things haven't been going too great :(

I agree with the previous posts, especially about what was said re: mental stimulation. My boy is six months now, so we're a few months behind you, but he can be quite the pain when he's lacking in either physical and mental exercise. What I've found helpful is shifting around my schedule so that I can get him tired out right off the bat, since I've noticed that his energy levels skyrocket in the morning and remain pent-up through the day if I don't do something about it pronto. What we do is go out for some fetch so that he can stretch his legs, and combine it with training and socializing. If he gets a few hours out of the crate right off the bat to start his day, I've notice he mellows out tremendously for the rest of the day. Perhaps this is something you could try?

It sounds like you guys are making great progress here and don't forget to give yourself credit for that! You have an 8mo pup on your hands who is getting better at paying attention, better at coming to you when called, walks well and seems happy and well-socialized. That's a feat in itself and something to celebrate ;)

Same here. I've learned from Tama that the best way to get us both through this period of time is to remind myself constantly that he is a baby, and I wouldn't trust him alone or expect him to listen to me any more or any better than a 5 year old child. But believe me, I know it's so much easier said than done. I've had many moments of becoming so frustrated and so upset and feeling like I can't take it anymore. There have been times that I take him out for a walk and he doesn't listen to me and won't stop pulling on the leash and I'm just there holding back tears the entire time because I've worked so hard and sometimes the progress seems totally invisible. (Meanwhile people are giving me strange looks... 'why is she upset, look at that adorable puppy who could do no wrong'.... :rolleyes:

It is hard! If nothing else, take comfort in the fact that many have struggled and are struggled with very similar issues. Take it easy on yourself too. If your anxiety levels are through the roof and you are running out energy and feel like you can't keep going, it'll be hard to work with him calmly and positively. Nothing feels worse than having to take care of someone else when you feel like you haven't gotten the chance to take of yourself. Hang in there.

8 month mark was the biggest regression I have noticed he had a massive freak out when he was over his frustration threshold Infront of lots of people biting his lead and my partner because he couldn't say hello to people. He managed to make her cry. He looks like an adult dog and is a fairly sizeable 20kg Collie so just looked out of control and dangerous. I guess we just have to keep going he is family.. However he is pushing his luck :(

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Mental stimulation does not have to be super stimulating, if that makes sense.  I have found for our dogs, taking them for a drive with the windows down a bit, so they could sniff all the wonderful scents as they go past, is quite mentally draining.  Using the nose is a great way to tire a dog out, so I highly recommend nosework, even if it is just wrapping treats in a blanket for him to nose out and find.  A snuffle mat is another good option too.  Even just talking to your dog is good.

You are not alone!  Your puppy is still a baby, and worse, he is one who is starting to have the size of an adult without the hormonal and emotional maturity of one.  These times were sent to try us!  Without meaning to depress you, I found that things just gradually got better, until one day I realised that my dogs didn't act like puppies any more, or did so only on occasions that were so uncommon that I specifically noticed them.

Hold strong.  In years to come, as he is an old dog who can no longer leap to his feet as easily as he once did, you will miss these days.

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3 hours ago, Lawgirl said:

Hold strong.  In years to come, as he is an old dog who can no longer leap to his feet as easily as he once did, you will miss these days.

 

Ditto.  My wild and crazy boy is now 12 years old and I think back to those days and smile.  He is still wild and crazy but his body has difficulty keeping up!

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Our boy calmed down around ten months old, it was like he suddenly realised that it was okay to sleep during the day and that it was okay to walk across a room instead of ricochet off the walls and furniture.

One thing which we have recently done is to restrict his off lead crazy running and ball play. I have to admit that during the winter when it was dark and cold and sometimes wet our outings were short and to make up for that I did lots of ball throwing to try and get in as much exercise for him as I could in a short a time as possible. Now we have daylight and milder temperatures we can be out for longer, but unfortunately he still thinks that off lead means running as fast as he can for as long as he can, to the point that I have worried that he might explode. And then he'd be crazy all evening and demanding again the next day, like he never properly came down from the high that he got from running. Now we don't give him so much freedom to run like that. At home he can run down the garden and sometimes he gets a ball thrown for him, but only 2 or 3 times, not over and over again. We try to stop before he gets intense, then play find-the-toy or do some tricks for a few minutes to transition into less energetic behaviour. Our outings are now more on lead in grassy areas (so not too many things to take him over threshold), lots of freedom to sniff and if he starts panting and pulling I drop treats in the grass for him to sniff out which slows him down again. To start with I felt really guilty that I wasn't letting him off to run every day as he seems to love it so much, but very quickly he became calmer at home (we had a couple of days of really bad weather which meant we didn't go out and by day 3 he was so much more relaxed). He stopped panting all the time and his poo has firmed up. He's always been a panter and always had soft poo, I'd never related it to exercise and stress. He also seems more able to focus and less quick to reach threshold when we practice walking near people and cars. We do still have off lead exercise, once or twice a week, (although I try not to let him run himself stupid) and afterwards he is restless and demanding for the rest of the day and some of the next.

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The best piece of advice I read when we accidentally adopted our first border collie was you get the border collie you create. If you walk ten miles a day that's what they will need, if it's only a 20 minute walk around the block twice a day then they will adapt. 

Mental stimulation can be learning stupid pet tricks, learning an inconsequential trick is fun for dog and person, lots of treats, no pressure and it doesn't matter if it goes wrong. One of our border collies would be exhausted after 10 minutes of trick training in the house (middle of winter when none of us wanted to go for a walk) he could hike all day long, but using his brain just knocked him out. 

Its allready been touched on but border collies in the North of England and the Borders of Scotland do not work all day, they might not work for days. The sheep are free grazed on moorland and are not tended everyday. Shepherds except their dogs to work hard when needed, but when not they ride around on the cuad, hangout in the farm yard, go to the pub. Basically no shepherd from where the dogs originate would have any time for a maniac go go dog. 

All our border collies and foster dogs have learned to chill it's just what we expect. 

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Ditto to everything Alligande wrote. 

I also find that nosework in particular can be good mental stimulation to calm down a bored high energy dog.  There's plenty of online information on it, and it can be anything from formal nosework training for specific competitive programs to simply having your dog play find the cookie (or toy) hidden in the house for a few rounds.  And it can be done indoors, in any weather, and can be squeezed into quick little 5-10 minute sessions a couple times a day, or longer sessions.  It won't instantly make your dog calmer, but it's one activity you can do that won't just give you a high energy dog who's now also been endurance trained by providing ever longer and ever more frequent walks.

And as has been said here before, no amount of training will make your dog a year older.  I have a young dog now who is a slightly less extreme version of how you describe your dog.  Mine doesn't scratch and fight about being put in a crate, but the over the top hyper stimulation when he sees multiple dogs and people is very familiar to me.  The only reason I'm not at the end of my rope over it is that for me it's a matter of "been there, done that".   When I look back at my favorite dogs over my lifetime, the real heart dogs were all monsters as puppies.  This too shall pass.

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12 hours ago, Hooper2 said:

And as has been said here before, no amount of training will make your dog a year older.  I have a young dog now who is a slightly less extreme version of how you describe your dog.  Mine doesn't scratch and fight about being put in a crate, but the over the top hyper stimulation when he sees multiple dogs and people is very familiar to me.  The only reason I'm not at the end of my rope over it is that for me it's a matter of "been there, done that".   When I look back at my favorite dogs over my lifetime, the real heart dogs were all monsters as puppies.  This too shall pass.

That's such a helpful thing to read, thank-you. Sometimes it seems that the experienced owners here would never have the sort of problems and behaviour that newbies are go through with their puppies.

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 1:41 AM, BorderYogal said:

I put him in his crate and he looks relieved but he won't sleep outside it

Where I am crates aren't really a thing with pet owners so please do not be upset or offended by anything I say, I am genuinely ignorant. 

It looks like your dog spends about two thirds of his life in his crate, is that a lot or is that about normal? My one year old boy is calming down and things are getting easier at home, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't sleep two thirds of his life. And even when he does have long sleeps they are broken by him waking up stretching, walking to another place and laying down somewhere else to go back to sleep. Sometimes he'll have a drink of water or find a rogue kibble en route or walk around checking where everyone is before settling down again. (Actually it's really nice being able to say that, six months ago he was either fast asleep or being manic, I think age really has played a huge part) 

Maybe with your puppy the penny just hasn't dropped that it's okay to sleep anywhere else other than the crate, when he's out of it he's always doing something or given attention. I don't know how you'd teach him that though. Our boy will go to sleep if he thinks we're asleep, when he was younger we used to trick him into having a nap by all pretending to be asleep. I don't know if that works for anyone else.

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5 hours ago, jami74 said:

Our boy will go to sleep if he thinks we're asleep, when he was younger we used to trick him into having a nap by all pretending to be asleep.

Essentially what you did was to ignore his attempts at interaction. It can be a pretty effective training strategy. ;)

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