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First of all, this isn't criticism or an attack of you.  Know that I feel bad for you and I'm posting because I want to help.

 

I suspect that the problem is at some point you get fed up and give in and entertain him when he starts this.  So rather than learning to chill out because nothing is going to happen he has learned that if he goes at it hard enough, and long enough, or gets annoying or destructive enough, you will entertain/amuse him in some way.    This is understandable and common because who wants their cat chased or rug destroyed?  Unfortunately, this is also how we build duration of behavior in training when we want to.  So he's just built duration in being an obnoxious pest :/ 

My suggestion is, when he does these things, if they are things you cannot simply ignore (and they often are) to unemotionally get up and put him in a crate and walk away and then ignore.  Only release for quiet.


But his options are, quite literally, to take play/entertainment when it suits you and otherwise behave and chill out or to be in the crate with no option but to behave and chill out.

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3 minutes ago, CptJack said:

First of all, this isn't criticism or an attack of you.  Know that I feel bad for you and I'm posting because I want to help.

 

I suspect that the problem is at some point you get fed up and give in and entertain him when he starts this.  So rather than learning to chill out because nothing is going to happen he has learned that if he goes at it hard enough, and long enough, or gets annoying or destructive enough, you will entertain/amuse him in some way.    This is understandable and common because who wants their cat chased or rug destroyed?  Unfortunately, this is also how we build duration of behavior in training when we want to.  So he's just built duration in being an obnoxious pest :/ 

My suggestion is, when he does these things, if they are things you cannot simply ignore (and they often are) to unemotionally get up and put him in a crate and walk away and then ignore.  Only release for quiet.


But his options are, quite literally, to take play/entertainment when it suits you and otherwise behave and chill out or to be in the crate with no option but to behave and chill out.

Thank you, I don't take that as criticism whatsoever. It makes sense we have tried this approach before he just continues for hours and someone's when he's bored he will chase me down and bite my ankle and grapple me like a bloody wrestler..which is hard cause he's 18kg now. 

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Yeah, that's the thing.  Every time you give in - at all, you build him to do it longer.  So if he's gone for hours and he's rewarded - even by going after you and tackling you - he has learned that he needs to go for hours but the pay off will be entertainment.


Also sounds like he could use a good, hard run and some general training, tbh, to make it easier to implement those things but bottom line is:

You have to do it and stick with it.  Indefinitely.  He's a border collie. He's smart. He KNOWS, because you have shown him, that eventually? He's going to get an opportunity for fun, if he just sticks with it.

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It's a band aid not a solution but I use a treat and train at work because she can't be there if she's naughty or loud and I need her to be able to join me on 16 hour work shifts. 

My girl is about 6 months old and about 1/2 cup of kibbles gets me about an hour or two of settled behavior without even needing to be in the room/building. It comes with all the education you need to set your dog up for success. I assume as she matures we can eventually stop using it but my current attitude is she can have all her meals at work from this thing for the rest of her darn life if it means she can continue to come to work with me. 

https://www.amazon.com/PetSafe-Treat-Remote-Reward-Trainer/dp/B0010B8CHG

 

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I agree with Cpt. Jack. The problem lies in the tried and true belief that your puppy has that if he simply continues long enough you will eventually give in. I recommend that starting now you pop him in a crate at the first sign of bad behavior and do not let him out....do not let him out......until he is quiet. If that takes hours, it takes hours.  Sooner or later he will have to stop.

Have you ever seen a kid in a supermarket screaming for a treat and the mother says no, says no, says no, then finally gives in and gives it to him just to shut him up? And maybe you have thought that the mother is training her kid to keep screaming until he gets what he wants? Same thing. :D

I so thoroughly understand where you are coming from and have sympathy. It is very hard to get through this stage in a puppy's life if your particular puppy is one who goes through it. The only way out is to persevere. Your pup needs to learn that his bad behavior will Never be rewarded in any way. That is the only thing that will extinguish the behavior. And until that behavior is extinguished, you probably won't make a lot of headway teaching an "off switch", because going into a crate and settling down is the first step toward teaching that.

Best of luck and let us know if we can help further.

 

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5 minutes ago, D'Elle said:

I agree with Cpt. Jack. The problem lies in the tried and true belief that your puppy has that if he simply continues long enough you will eventually give in. I recommend that starting now you pop him in a crate at the first sign of bad behavior and do not let him out....do not let him out......until he is quiet. If that takes hours, it takes hours.  Sooner or later he will have to stop.

Have you ever seen a kid in a supermarket screaming for a treat and the mother says no, says no, says no, then finally gives in and gives it to him just to shut him up? And maybe you have thought that the mother is training her kid to keep screaming until he gets what he wants? Same thing. :D

I so thoroughly understand where you are coming from and have sympathy. It is very hard to get through this stage in a puppy's life if your particular puppy is one who goes through it. The only way out is to persevere. Your pup needs to learn that his bad behavior will Never be rewarded in any way. That is the only thing that will extinguish the behavior. And until that behavior is extinguished, you probably won't make a lot of headway teaching an "off switch", because going into a crate and settling down is the first step toward teaching that.

Best of luck and let us know if we can help further.

 

A lot of positive rewarding trainers suggest not using the crate because of negative association we have been using a play pen, is that okay and also is it okay to gently use the collar to lead them. 

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Hey, I'm not an expert but here's my two cents.

Firstly I really really feel for you. My border collie is almost 6 months old and there are days where I wanna rip my hair out. Yesterday night he was howling in his crate for what felt like forever despite getting enough exercise, mental stimulation, etc etc... makes me feel like a really terrible owner because he's so upset and I'm not able to help him or myself, so it feels like I am doing something very wrong. Just letting you know that you're definitely not alone if that's any consolation.

I do use the crate (as mentioned above), and my understanding is that it doesn't necessarily need to be a negative association. It shouldn't be negative if you don't associate it with scolding him or punishing him. When my guy acts up and does something he's not supposed to (stealing a wrapper from the trash, chewing on shoes, whatever it is), he gets picked up and placed into the crate without a word. This doesn't mean "bad dog you go in the crate for being bad", it means "oh no, if you do that I guess playtime has to stop...".

I have also noticed that once I start thinking "I've messed up, everything sucks, I can't take this anymore" - I start noticing every little thing that goes wrong in our day. Every time he doesn't listen to me, every time he pulls on the leash, every time he acts crazy, every time he cries, etc. Then it spirals from there and I forget to see the progress that we actually have made. What's helped me TREMENDOUSLY in in my relationship with Tama (my dog) is celebrating EVERY tiny little thing that he does right. It changes my attitude towards him and helps me focus on the good things, which he picks up on too, and it's just more positive overall.

Anyway - you have my sympathies, and I really do think it will get better. As others have said, just be consistent in not rewarding the bad behavior. At seven and a half months old, he's still very much in the process of settling into your life, and as long as you don't give up, keep asking for advice, and take care of yourself, things will look up. :D

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Give yourself a break. He’s still young and there is no reason he HAS to self settle. Our guy has always had ‘come on, nap time’ from us and like a toddler he gradually needed less and less. He rarely needs naps now (e.g. he will self settle) but he’s nearly 1. He was still having nap time up to about 9/10 months. 

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18 minutes ago, tamapup said:

Hey, I'm not an expert but here's my two cents.

Firstly I really really feel for you. My border collie is almost 6 months old and there are days where I wanna rip my hair out. Yesterday night he was howling in his crate for what felt like forever despite getting enough exercise, mental stimulation, etc etc... makes me feel like a really terrible owner because he's so upset and I'm not able to help him or myself, so it feels like I am doing something very wrong. Just letting you know that you're definitely not alone if that's any consolation.

I do use the crate (as mentioned above), and my understanding is that it doesn't necessarily need to be a negative association. It shouldn't be negative if you don't associate it with scolding him or punishing him. When my guy acts up and does something he's not supposed to (stealing a wrapper from the trash, chewing on shoes, whatever it is), he gets picked up and placed into the crate without a word. This doesn't mean "bad dog you go in the crate for being bad", it means "oh no, if you do that I guess playtime has to stop...".

I have also noticed that once I start thinking "I've messed up, everything sucks, I can't take this anymore" - I start noticing every little thing that goes wrong in our day. Every time he doesn't listen to me, every time he pulls on the leash, every time he acts crazy, every time he cries, etc. Then it spirals from there and I forget to see the progress that we actually have made. What's helped me TREMENDOUSLY in in my relationship with Tama (my dog) is celebrating EVERY tiny little thing that he does right. It changes my attitude towards him and helps me focus on the good things, which he picks up on too, and it's just more positive overall.

Anyway - you have my sympathies, and I really do think it will get better. As others have said, just be consistent in not rewarding the bad behavior. At seven and a half months old, he's still very much in the process of settling into your life, and as long as you don't give up, keep asking for advice, and take care of yourself, things will look up. :D

What a small but fantastic method we do celebrate Pax's achievements but not nearly as much as I could. It will put us both in a positive place. Thank you so much for your response. 

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17 minutes ago, tamapup said:

Hey, I'm not an expert but here's my two cents.

Firstly I really really feel for you. My border collie is almost 6 months old and there are days where I wanna rip my hair out. Yesterday night he was howling in his crate for what felt like forever despite getting enough exercise, mental stimulation, etc etc... makes me feel like a really terrible owner because he's so upset and I'm not able to help him or myself, so it feels like I am doing something very wrong. Just letting you know that you're definitely not alone if that's any consolation.

I do use the crate (as mentioned above), and my understanding is that it doesn't necessarily need to be a negative association. It shouldn't be negative if you don't associate it with scolding him or punishing him. When my guy acts up and does something he's not supposed to (stealing a wrapper from the trash, chewing on shoes, whatever it is), he gets picked up and placed into the crate without a word. This doesn't mean "bad dog you go in the crate for being bad", it means "oh no, if you do that I guess playtime has to stop...".

I have also noticed that once I start thinking "I've messed up, everything sucks, I can't take this anymore" - I start noticing every little thing that goes wrong in our day. Every time he doesn't listen to me, every time he pulls on the leash, every time he acts crazy, every time he cries, etc. Then it spirals from there and I forget to see the progress that we actually have made. What's helped me TREMENDOUSLY in in my relationship with Tama (my dog) is celebrating EVERY tiny little thing that he does right. It changes my attitude towards him and helps me focus on the good things, which he picks up on too, and it's just more positive overall.

Anyway - you have my sympathies, and I really do think it will get better. As others have said, just be consistent in not rewarding the bad behavior. At seven and a half months old, he's still very much in the process of settling into your life, and as long as you don't give up, keep asking for advice, and take care of yourself, things will look up. :D

Yes, this.

 

I don't use the crate as 'punishment' I just treat undesirable behavior (nagging, getting into trouble and not settling) as though the dog is asking to be crated.   It is very unemotional, clear, cause - > effect.  Dog tears around like a wild child and doesn't settle, the alternative is going in the crate. No scolding, no anger, no negatives.  I might even give the dog a kong or bone in there.  It's simply life:  you either chill out and behave or you're crated.  Much like I would pick the dog up and carry them outside to go to the bathroom.  They don't tear around in the house or attack me, and they don't use the bathroom in the house.   I prevent both, and manage both, and make the alternative/desirable behavior obvious.  It really is that simple and my dogs all still love their crates.

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16 minutes ago, ShellyF said:

Give yourself a break. He’s still young and there is no reason he HAS to self settle. Our guy has always had ‘come on, nap time’ from us and like a toddler he gradually needed less and less. He rarely needs naps now (e.g. he will self settle) but he’s nearly 1. He was still having nap time up to about 9/10 months. 

I guess sometimes I just don't believe he will ever be an actual dog instead of a mischievous pup. 

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BorderYoga,  you may want to consider changing your dog's diet.  Some dogs can be sensitive to certain ingredients in their diet, and that can cause them to become overstimulated.  Perhaps the treats you give him are adding to his energy level, as well.   Just a thought.

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33 minutes ago, BorderYogal said:

I guess sometimes I just don't believe he will ever be an actual dog instead of a mischievous pup. 

9/10 months we saw quite a change. He’ll get there but for now just take him to his crate for a nice nap with some dog biscuits and put your feet up :) 

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7 hours ago, tamapup said:

I have also noticed that once I start thinking "I've messed up, everything sucks, I can't take this anymore" - I start noticing every little thing that goes wrong in our day. Every time he doesn't listen to me, every time he pulls on the leash, every time he acts crazy, every time he cries, etc. Then it spirals from there and I forget to see the progress that we actually have made. What's helped me TREMENDOUSLY in in my relationship with Tama (my dog) is celebrating EVERY tiny little thing that he does right. It changes my attitude towards him and helps me focus on the good things, which he picks up on too, and it's just more positive overall.

Anyway - you have my sympathies, and I really do think it will get better. As others have said, just be consistent in not rewarding the bad behavior. At seven and a half months old, he's still very much in the process of settling into your life, and as long as you don't give up, keep asking for advice, and take care of yourself, things will look up:D

Hear, hear! I think celebrating tiny victories is key. Also, whenever Joey and I find we're going nuts with Kevin (who is 7 months today), we google all about how the adolescent period is the most difficult and feel validated :) . It is not always going to be like this! Kevin is our first border collie puppy, but he's not my first border. The other two were rescues, both of whom came into my life at 10 months, and neither of whom had this much crazy-driving-capacity. I'm not saying it will all get better at 10 months necessarily (wouldn't that be nice?) but it is evidence that things definitely improve.

This too shall pass!

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On 4/2/2019 at 10:12 PM, CptJack said:

First of all, this isn't criticism or an attack of you.  Know that I feel bad for you and I'm posting because I want to help.

 

I suspect that the problem is at some point you get fed up and give in and entertain him when he starts this.  So rather than learning to chill out because nothing is going to happen he has learned that if he goes at it hard enough, and long enough, or gets annoying or destructive enough, you will entertain/amuse him in some way.    This is understandable and common because who wants their cat chased or rug destroyed?  Unfortunately, this is also how we build duration of behavior in training when we want to.  So he's just built duration in being an obnoxious pest :/ 

My suggestion is, when he does these things, if they are things you cannot simply ignore (and they often are) to unemotionally get up and put him in a crate and walk away and then ignore.  Only release for quiet.


But his options are, quite literally, to take play/entertainment when it suits you and otherwise behave and chill out or to be in the crate with no option but to behave and chill out.

Just wanted to thank everyone for their incredibly insightful responses especially CptJack & Tamapup.

Since I stopped letting Pax get away with as much, tightened the boundaries and changed my mindset I have noticed a huge difference in his personality. 

HE SAT ON THE SOFA WITH ME AND THE CAT FOR 23 MINUTES! Yes I counted and granted I was calmly fussing him but still to me this means the world. 

Thank you so much!

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I have a couple distinct memories of my sis with her human kids, when they were toddlers. Any kind of prolonged fussing or crying without a good reason, (like taking a tumble, or being frightened by something obvious) was met with a fairly calm, "I think a nap right now would do both of us a world of good" sort of attitude. I was very impressed w/Sis, and think that's what goes on w/pups. Even adolescent ones.

Your progress w/ Pax is awesome! Glad it's working so well and you're seeing results that you like:D

Ruth & Gibbs

 

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3 hours ago, BorderYogal said:

Just wanted to thank everyone for their incredibly insightful responses especially CptJack & Tamapup.

Since I stopped letting Pax get away with as much, tightened the boundaries and changed my mindset I have noticed a huge difference in his personality. 

HE SAT ON THE SOFA WITH ME AND THE CAT FOR 23 MINUTES! Yes I counted and granted I was calmly fussing him but still to me this means the world. 

Thank you so much!

This makes me so happy to hear!  Congratulations and good work!

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16 hours ago, CptJack said:

This makes me so happy to hear!  Congratulations and good work!

Will do and will keep you updated, heres a pic of him with his cat!

 

paxcat.jpg

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You've gotten some great advice, and it sounds like it's working!  (AND he's getting older by the minute...LOL!)

Another thought:  sometimes mental stimulus is as tiring as physical work.  There are tons of games and tricks you can do, though I realize sometimes the "overactive" pup isn't going to do these for very long.  You might look at some of the physical games - even a muffin tin, upside down, with treats under each cup; or a treat under a ball in each cup.  Little things that will keep him busy, give him some satisfaction, AND keep him out of your hair/legs/arms for a bit.  I prefer teaching things that are interactive with me - but then, I'm retired and have time.

Hang in there - this too will pass!

diane

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